AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post Reply
wobuffet
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:09 am

AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by wobuffet »

What we have now:
  • AP Rounds ignore 2 armor.
  • Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds do a base +1 damage and 1 more damage to specific targets." (as of 1.3)
Is +1 base, +1 specific damage really enough to compete with AP Rounds? Pretty much all late-game priority targets will have armor, so it seems the math would favor the generalist AP Rounds over any specific damage boosts.

Ideas:
Perhaps the specialized Stiletto, Flechette, Needle Rounds could...
  • Shred specific enemy types? Rupture specific enemy types?
  • +1 damage base +2 for specific enemies? Or +0 base +3 specific? Even -1 base +3 specific?
  • For specific enemies, +1 damage and -2 Mobility imposed with every successful hit? (or -5 Defense, -10 Dodge, etc.)
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by Tuhalu »

Phosphorus Flamer shots remove 1 armor.
Shredder Rounds remove 2 armor.
Rockets remove 2 armor.
Shredder perk (gunner, technical or awc) removes up to 3 armor (with plasma tier).
Plasma Grenades remove 3 armor.
Acid Grenades remove 4 armor and cause 1 rupture.

It's pretty easy to remove all the armor from priority targets in 1 or 2 shots, allowing all follow up shots to do maximum damage. At this point any of the +1 damage rounds are more effective than armor piercing rounds. You do need to bring a balance of tools though.
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by LordYanaek »

Even without those, the math isn't that simple.
Early and early-mid very few enemies have 2+ armor (only some mecs) so those rounds can actually be much more efficient than AP against a number of enemies and still be better than AP against a number of enemies with only +1.
Mid-late when a lot of enemies start having armor, Coil will come online and negate one of those. Once again the special rounds will usually be better against their specific targets and rarely worse against others.

Overall those new rounds seem pretty good in a vacuum or when compared with AP. The real issue is do they hold the comparison with both AP and Venom/Dragon simultaneously? AP will always be better against robots and Venom/Dragon work on (almost) every organics with a chance to apply a debuff. Is the additional 1 damage against some enemies worth more than 50% chance to apply mild CC for Venom or hard CC for Dragon?

It's hard to tell without actually testing.
sarge945
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:47 am

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by sarge945 »

I also think a +1 buff to bonus damage would be good.
Ethereal Commander
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:44 pm

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by Ethereal Commander »

I really like the 1.3 changes to ammo. I think we would need to play out the new ammo and test it personally before we start instagating additional buffs to ammo we have never used. Lets trust in the devs and play testers. Or maybe I'm an Ethereal or a Cylon. Who knows?
Elder_Basilisk
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:25 pm

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by Elder_Basilisk »

I expect they'll probably work best at the coil tier. Starting with armor pierce 1 makes the math a lot better for +1/+2 DMG vs armor pierce 2. It seems likely to be a lot harder to make the sale at other weapon tiers.
Drogmyre
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:17 am

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by Drogmyre »

There's another thing missing from this discussion, which is base damage calculation.

It's not just +1 damage, it's +1 to your BASE damage, if I'm not mistaken. That means your SMGs hit like Assault Rifles, your ARs hit like Shotguns/Snipers/Cannons, and your Cannons/Snipers/Shotguns hit like Laser Rifles. That's at ballistics tier, where you need the most help.

This means that, on Legend, your ARs will consistently kill basic troopers on a hit (not graze), your shotguns, cannons, and snipers will kill any non-gunner/officer ADVENT unit, and your SMGs can actually do damage.

All this assumes that +1 damage means it bumps 3-5 to 4-6, and isn't just a half point (3-6) on the top end.

If it is 4-6, that means that against specific targets (like say ADVENT) you'll do 5-7 against favored enemy. That's some good damage for ballistics, and don't forget Center Mass either on most classes you'll want ammunition on, which bumps it up even more to 6-8 against favored, which is incredible.
User avatar
JoeShmo
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:48 pm

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by JoeShmo »

I think it's at the very least a good start, because it's actually creating a theory craft discussion, rather than an instantaneous "well, obviously it's junk".

I have to agree with the sentiment that AP is going to be much more situational at the start than normal ( still yummy for DLC missions ),and I think that's good, in terms of thematic Xcom. Tools for Jobs, not Jobs for Tools. ( Situational vs G.I. Joe Everything ). Even if you run the chance of encountering either situation of AP vs no armor, or 1+1 vs heavy armor, it should balance out in the long run of a map.

In general though, I think AP might lose out in the end, because even if you run into someone with 2 armor...you're still ( most likely ) going to be doing 2 additional damage anyway...which makes it relatively moot against armored units, but clearly better vs non armored. Also take into consideration crits, which benefits hitting non armored units with non AP rounds greater, while making the difference between hitting an armored target less variable. In the worst case scenario, you're looking at a 1-2 damage less as a chance event, versus always having 1-2 more damage. AP ammo keeps you from having variance altogether; which could be either good, or bad, depending on your particulars.

Also consider the relative usefulness of having 1-2 more damage mid / late game. Early game ..like mentioned with SMGs ..having 1-2 more base damage with ballistics is like a 30-60% increase in damage potential. If you're using plasma though ...it's significantly less. And take into consideration the classes / makeups you have going. If you have a lot of shredding potential in the group...it makes no sense to go AP. If you don't have shredding options though...having AP rounds might make the difference between almost winning ..and winning if you run up against a ton of armored units suddenly.

I think it's safe to say it's going to be a coin flip if you blindly use either ...but beneficial to those that can "foresee" what they are going up against.
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by LordYanaek »

Drogmyre wrote: It's not just +1 damage, it's +1 to your BASE damage, if I'm not mistaken <...>
All this assumes that +1 damage means it bumps 3-5 to 4-6, and isn't just a half point (3-6) on the top end.
There is no difference between +1 damage and +1 base damage. They work exactly the same way, just like Center Mass does : they increase min and max damage so yes, a basic assault rifle will get to 4-6 with those ammo and 5-7 against their "preferred target".

But i don't know which autopsy is required to build them so is hard to know if they will help at ballistic level and possibly allow delaying (or bypassing) laser like some LW1 ammo did. In 1.2 some of those (i'm not sure which) required Shieldbearer autopsy which usually comes when you already have Laser or Mag weapons.
Drogmyre
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:17 am

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by Drogmyre »

LordYanaek wrote:
Drogmyre wrote: It's not just +1 damage, it's +1 to your BASE damage, if I'm not mistaken <...>
All this assumes that +1 damage means it bumps 3-5 to 4-6, and isn't just a half point (3-6) on the top end.
There is no difference between +1 damage and +1 base damage. They work exactly the same way, just like Center Mass does : they increase min and max damage so yes, a basic assault rifle will get to 4-6 with those ammo and 5-7 against their "preferred target".

But i don't know which autopsy is required to build them so is hard to know if they will help at ballistic level and possibly allow delaying (or bypassing) laser like some LW1 ammo did. In 1.2 some of those (i'm not sure which) required Shieldbearer autopsy which usually comes when you already have Laser or Mag weapons.
Stilletto is Faceless Autopsy, so that one comes pretty quick if you want it, and gives Chameleon suits which are good.

Most of the +damage ones come pretty early on, lemme check the research tree real quick.

Okay, after further review, Needle is locked behind Shieldbearer Autopsy, and Shredder is locked behind Turret Breakdown.

So Stiletto is the only one where you can really get it early, the others would be post-laser timings just due to the way corpse gathering works.

Still, probably pretty good!

EDIT:

Have some more time to speculate, leaving for church in half an hour.

Anyway, since Stiletto comes pretty early, and Chameleon Suits are pretty good, Faceless Autopsy might be able to delay lasers by quite a bit. Stiletto will deal +1 to all targets, +2 to ayys, which when considering on higher difficulties Vipers and Sectoids are very common in the first two months means your favored enemy shows up quite a lot.

Though I would argue it's less effective for killing Aliens than it is just as a situationally better version of Center Mass on an item, which is VERY valuable, as I mentioned before, bumping Rifles up to Cannon Damage is quite good.

So, with your confirmation that it DOES buff the damage the way I thought it does, thanks for that LordYanaek, appreciate it.

Rangers are getting a HUGE buff in that case, then. Center Mass Rangers will hit like Laser Rifle tier with Stiletto Rounds, with LOWER RNG! (5-7 as opposed to 4-7.) This is huge, add on top of that the Covering Fire buffs and other things they've done with Rangers, and now I think I might start training Infantry much earlier just because of their sheer damage output.

And it doesn't stop at Ballistics, either. Rangers with Stiletto and CM will carry over once you get Lasers, making them hit like Mag. (6-9 damage is pretty good!) I'll need to test this a bit, but I think Rangers will be very strong.

Speaking of strong classes, Gunners are getting a massive buff from this: Since you get Center Mass at Lance Cpl, and Hail of Bullets at Cpl, that means a Gunner with Stiletto Rounds can have an instant-kill button for every early game ADVENT unit. 6-8 damage is no joke at ballistics tier.

Looking forward to 1.3, seems like a lot will be changing, and I'll definitely be testing this out.
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: AP Rounds vs reworked Stiletto, Flechette and Needle Rounds [balance]

Post by LordYanaek »

Drogmyre wrote: Anyway, since Stiletto comes pretty early, and Chameleon Suits are pretty good, Faceless Autopsy might be able to delay lasers by quite a bit. Stiletto will deal +1 to all targets, +2 to ayys, which when considering on higher difficulties Vipers and Sectoids are very common in the first two months means your favored enemy shows up quite a lot.
And possibly more importantly the +2 would apply to the worst early game nightmare (sneks) so yes, probably pretty good if you can get a Rendezvous early (which you usually get).
So, with your confirmation that it DOES buff the damage the way I thought it does, thanks for that LordYanaek, appreciate it.
Note that i didn't playtest 1.3 but that's how every +dmg ability works so i don't see any reason they would code something specific just to make those ammo a little worse when they have decided to buff them.
Speaking of strong classes, Gunners are getting a massive buff from this: Since you get Center Mass at Lance Cpl, and Hail of Bullets at Cpl, that means a Gunner with Stiletto Rounds can have an instant-kill button for every early game ADVENT unit. 6-8 damage is no joke at ballistics tier.
1.3 Cannons lose a half-point of damage (so the ballistic cannon should become 3-6 rather than 4-6 as those "half damage" actually actually give you 50% chance to add one point of damage). Your CM+Stiletto will be 5-8 vs advent.
Post Reply