A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

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Valaska
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Valaska »

Erm, you mean sword shinobi's are INFINITELY weaker*

As in, pointless now... Completely fricken pointless. Dodge reductions in multiple ways decreases their survivability and the complete crap on Reaper makes them worthless. Just ditch Shinobi if you are going 1.2 -> 1.3.

Completely ditch sharpshooters now, too. Pointless. Just... Ignore them completely. Spam gunners instead of them, sharpshooters are even more worthless than before.


In other news, anyone know where I can rollback the changes to reaper?
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xwynns
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by xwynns »

Clibanarius wrote:At least Xwynns has been railing against those. I imagine we'll be seeing a removal of the turn-0 pod activation near your rebel friends in the intel mini-retals at some point.
They were tweaked a little, and since then I haven't seen a single turn 1 activation. However, they are probably still possible but they won't be happening every other datatap.
Clibanarius
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Clibanarius »

Valaska wrote:Erm, you mean sword shinobi's are INFINITELY weaker*

As in, pointless now... Completely fricken pointless. Dodge reductions in multiple ways decreases their survivability and the complete crap on Reaper makes them worthless. Just ditch Shinobi if you are going 1.2 -> 1.3.

Completely ditch sharpshooters now, too. Pointless. Just... Ignore them completely. Spam gunners instead of them, sharpshooters are even more worthless than before.


In other news, anyone know where I can rollback the changes to reaper?
Do you mind maybe taking the extreme hysteria down just a few notches, maybe to 12 or 11? You're at a fucking 19 and the cap is supposed to be 10.
EsoxGreen
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by EsoxGreen »

Clibanarius wrote:
Valaska wrote:Erm, you mean sword shinobi's are INFINITELY weaker*

As in, pointless now... Completely fricken pointless. Dodge reductions in multiple ways decreases their survivability and the complete crap on Reaper makes them worthless. Just ditch Shinobi if you are going 1.2 -> 1.3.

Completely ditch sharpshooters now, too. Pointless. Just... Ignore them completely. Spam gunners instead of them, sharpshooters are even more worthless than before.


In other news, anyone know where I can rollback the changes to reaper?
Do you mind maybe taking the extreme hysteria down just a few notches, maybe to 12 or 11? You're at a fucking 19 and the cap is supposed to be 10.
Only in this thread you told people to shut up and stop with hysteria. Chill, dude...
Valaska wrote:Erm, you mean sword shinobi's are INFINITELY weaker*

As in, pointless now... Completely fricken pointless. Dodge reductions in multiple ways decreases their survivability and the complete crap on Reaper makes them worthless. Just ditch Shinobi if you are going 1.2 -> 1.3.

Completely ditch sharpshooters now, too. Pointless. Just... Ignore them completely. Spam gunners instead of them, sharpshooters are even more worthless than before.


In other news, anyone know where I can rollback the changes to reaper?
The points are valid. Reaper was the only redeeming feature of non-stealth Shinobis. I think it had very good example of strong, but very risky ability. Now it is just not worth it. With nerfs to stealth there is not so much incentive to invest in stealth Shinobies too.
Clibanarius
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Clibanarius »

Sorry, I didn't realize that whining in the most flamboyant way imaginable was allowed within hours of the patch's release. I can guarantee he hasn't even played it yet and he's posting on Reddit to ask about how to roll back to 1.2 and posting here bitching about things he can't even know.
Zaramnor
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Zaramnor »

Sad. It's all about playing faster and with teams, as they like, not as I like. Thanks for your guide, I'll stick to 1.2... Probably till X-Com 3
Clibanarius
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Clibanarius »

Zaramnor wrote:Sad. It's all about playing faster and with teams, as they like, not as I like. Thanks for your guide, I'll stick to 1.2... Probably till X-Com 3
It's what they think is balanced and provides a fair outcome. If you were doing nothing but stealth missions before and prefer that, more power to you, stick with 1.2, but these guys made the game and know what they're doing better than a single player does.
Jeckhyl
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Jeckhyl »

I guess my shinobis will be more offensive now, and be "scouts using their big sword" now. It's time to learn again to attack and slash and cut little bits of aliens with this character instead of run in the dark with him.
Learn, learn, learn. Yes it's hard but it's more fun than use always the same tricks ad nauseam.
Antifringe
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Antifringe »

This is the way I've been using Shinobis from the start. It works fine. People saying that they are useless are just wrong. Sorry guys, everyone gets to have an opinion and all, but my swordsmen all had impressive kill counts.

I also never used Reaper. Or serial for that matter. I find both of them to be to game-y for my personal suspension of disbelief. You really don't need them. And REaper is still probably the single most powerful perk on their tree. I mean, come on.

The change from Implacable to Whirlwind is welcome and makes higher lever swords games less binary. Looking forward to it.
Thrair
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Thrair »

EsoxGreen wrote:The points are valid. Reaper was the only redeeming feature of non-stealth Shinobis.
I would argue the keyword there is was. Coup de Grace is a big factor, there. It went from a melee Kubikiri to a general damage boost against enemies under a wide variety of status effects. +25 aim/+25 crit/+1 damage against Disoriented targets is quite good, given how easy that is to apply. And this is doubled against panicked or stunned targets (Sting, even post-nerfs).

This large crit bonus also makes Cutthroat more useful. Add Coup de Grace's crit bonuses onto Cutthroat's, and you have a lot better chance of getting that +2 crit damage. A fully upgraded Sword has a 20% base crit. Add in 15% from Cutthroat, and that's 35%. So +2 Crit damage ends up being an average of .7 damage. With 60% crit (CDG vs Disorient) this goes up to an average of 1.2 damage. With 85% crit (CGD vs Stunned/Panicked), it's an average of 1.7 damage. Nothing to sneeze at.

On top of this, Whirlwind's a new perk. It's like Implacable (which it replaces) except all it needs is a melee hit, not a kill. That's a big one. As long as you don't miss outright, a graze doesn't leave you in a piss-poor position. It also opens up more opportunities to fleche something and run back to safety. It's much more reliable. Swords do not miss much, especially so if you're hitting something with CDG bonuses.


Swordnobis are also stronger early. Instead of starting with Cutthroat (which is weak early on), you start off with Blademaster. +10 aim makes misses extremely rare, and +1 damage matters a lot early-game.

Reaper was not simply nerfed. It also has a lower cooldown now. So while it's less of a damage spike, you have it available more often. Also, again, CDG synergy is great. The damage and crit bonuses help offset the increased damage penalty somewhat.



Oh, and that reminds me... you have to remember the higher-tech Swords were straight-up buffed. A little more damage and crit damage. So Swordnobis scale better with equipment.
Saph7
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Saph7 »

Valaska wrote:Just ditch Shinobi if you are going 1.2 -> 1.3.

Completely ditch sharpshooters now, too. Pointless. Just... Ignore them completely. Spam gunners instead of them, sharpshooters are even more worthless than before.
Valaska, I'm sorry, but you really have no idea what you're talking about.
Zaramnor
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Zaramnor »

Clibanarius wrote:
Zaramnor wrote:Sad. It's all about playing faster and with teams, as they like, not as I like. Thanks for your guide, I'll stick to 1.2... Probably till X-Com 3
It's what they think is balanced and provides a fair outcome. If you were doing nothing but stealth missions before and prefer that, more power to you, stick with 1.2, but these guys made the game and know what they're doing better than a single player does.
Stealth is a minor point. I like tactical combat with time to develop strategies besides hit-and-run-as-fast-as-possible. For that reason, I edited the timers to +30 turns. But as it reads in this guide, that won't help anymore.

So it's fine for me, to stick with 1.2.
crimsonsun
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by crimsonsun »

Am I alone in that while I've always had Stealth Shinobi I also have a few damage ones; Advanced Viper Armour, Fusion Axes + Shadow Keeper is a fantastic array of ability and you can systematically flow though a group of targets in a single round before vanishing. Whirlwind will make this more effective as both my damaging Shinobi had Implacable anyway.

On the overhand reaction fire has taken a fairly hefty hit, with Guardian/Rapid Reaction & Sentinel only activating once per round against a target, close encounters now costs 2 Ammo though that's not too harsh if your packing Elite Expanded Mags. Long range penalties with SMG's will make them with ever vigilant less useful. I'm also interested to see how the changes to formidable shake down the line.
Psieye
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Psieye »

Zaramnor wrote:But as it reads in this guide
My condolences on your lack of free time to try it out yourself instead of relying on an interpretation of someone else's words.
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Zaramnor
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Zaramnor »

Psieye wrote:
Zaramnor wrote:But as it reads in this guide
My condolences on your lack of free time to try it out yourself instead of relying on an interpretation of someone else's words.
Yes, it's easy to try 1.3 and then switch back to 1.2 on steam without any problems.

But thanks for your time, reading my posts and answering with useless provocation.
Frei_Ninjesus
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Frei_Ninjesus »

I just finished setting up my new rig a couple days ago, and yesterday I decided to boot up some XCOM 2 to try out the new eye candy (dayum it looks good man!). Imagine my surprise when the first mission in the new campaign turns out to be a S&G. "Did they just update to 1.3??" Indeed, went back to main menu and there it was. Man I'm so exited! Just started the new campaign last night and I only slept like 3 hours before work. Who cares? Not me. Thank you guys, so far things are looking awesome.

And thanks for the tips Saph7. I'm playing on veteran, yet I still learned a couple of things the hard way on the first few missions already.

(also, am I wrong or those guys who are complaining like spoiled lil' girls don't realize you can ini edit most of the stuff they are complaining about? I know I edited the max number of starting rooks so I could get most of my char pool from the start :P )
MRIchalk
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by MRIchalk »

Valaska wrote:Erm, you mean sword shinobi's are INFINITELY weaker*

As in, pointless now... Completely fricken pointless. Dodge reductions in multiple ways decreases their survivability and the complete crap on Reaper makes them worthless. Just ditch Shinobi if you are going 1.2 -> 1.3.

Completely ditch sharpshooters now, too. Pointless. Just... Ignore them completely. Spam gunners instead of them, sharpshooters are even more worthless than before.


In other news, anyone know where I can rollback the changes to reaper?
Eh. Pod sizes are smaller and advanced swords do more damage, so while Reaper is certainly nerfed, it still seems pretty damn powerful -- just not the massive pod-mop that it once was.

Dodge reduction decreases their survivability a bit, but were you tanking with them anyway? At least now with whirlwind they can more reliably make desperation attacks that would otherwise have them positioned quite badly in the event of a non-kill roll.
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Valaska
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Valaska »

Saph7 wrote:
Valaska wrote:Just ditch Shinobi if you are going 1.2 -> 1.3.

Completely ditch sharpshooters now, too. Pointless. Just... Ignore them completely. Spam gunners instead of them, sharpshooters are even more worthless than before.
Valaska, I'm sorry, but you really have no idea what you're talking about.
I have a Shinobi with more kills than most people have in their campaign and use them EXTENSIVELY, this is an outright neutering of the class and there's no saving grace here. Its a bad change and there's no way around that, people going on about how reaper can be used to "chip away" now it has a lower cool down... Chip away at what? Pods of 8 mec's they will get injured if they attempt to kill them? Mutons with counter and now resistance to flashbangs? A drop in their best defense, dodge?

All reaper does now, is put them in a massively dangerous situation where they can't do enough damage to kill some BASIC troops after the first reaper while still being the most RISKIEST skill in the game to use because you can activate a further pod that could catch them in the open.

You sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe read the userbase too on reddit etc and see what people actually think of the new sharpshooters. Seeing as no one really used many shinobi before for anything but a spotter doesn't affect them much I guess, with a massive and direct nerf.
MRIchalk wrote:
Valaska wrote:Erm, you mean sword shinobi's are INFINITELY weaker*

As in, pointless now... Completely fricken pointless. Dodge reductions in multiple ways decreases their survivability and the complete crap on Reaper makes them worthless. Just ditch Shinobi if you are going 1.2 -> 1.3.

Completely ditch sharpshooters now, too. Pointless. Just... Ignore them completely. Spam gunners instead of them, sharpshooters are even more worthless than before.


In other news, anyone know where I can rollback the changes to reaper?
Eh. Pod sizes are smaller and advanced swords do more damage, so while Reaper is certainly nerfed, it still seems pretty damn powerful -- just not the massive pod-mop that it once was.

Dodge reduction decreases their survivability a bit, but were you tanking with them anyway? At least now with whirlwind they can more reliably make desperation attacks that would otherwise have them positioned quite badly in the event of a non-kill roll.
Actually, yeah I was tanking with shinobi reapers lol. If you miss with your sword you had no choice but to be a tank, which can still happen at an extremely alarming rate. OR you activate a pod on accident and you are out in the open while the enemy get a 100% free move and shoot.
Dlareh
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Dlareh »

Valaska wrote:
Saph7 wrote:
Valaska wrote:Just ditch Shinobi if you are going 1.2 -> 1.3.

Completely ditch sharpshooters now, too. Pointless. Just... Ignore them completely. Spam gunners instead of them, sharpshooters are even more worthless than before.
Valaska, I'm sorry, but you really have no idea what you're talking about.
I have a Shinobi with more kills than most people have in their campaign and use them EXTENSIVELY, this is an outright neutering of the class and there's no saving grace here. Its a bad change and there's no way around that, people going on about how reaper can be used to "chip away" now it has a lower cool down... Chip away at what? Pods of 8 mec's they will get injured if they attempt to kill them? Mutons with counter and now resistance to flashbangs? A drop in their best defense, dodge?

All reaper does now, is put them in a massively dangerous situation where they can't do enough damage to kill some BASIC troops after the first reaper while still being the most RISKIEST skill in the game to use because you can activate a further pod that could catch them in the open.

You sir, have no idea what you are talking about.
Apart from Reaper, Shinobis as a whole (including sword Shinobis) have been massively buffed in 1.3+

Shinobis are now the strongest class in the game, and the fact that you're nowhere close to realizing this and also think gunners should be spammed and sharpshooters ignored means.. well, you've genuinely no idea what you're talking about here. Sorry.

I recommend you swallow your pride and go play the game and learn more, because there's clearly a lot you haven't figured out yet.
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trihero
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by trihero »

xwynns wrote:
Clibanarius wrote:At least Xwynns has been railing against those. I imagine we'll be seeing a removal of the turn-0 pod activation near your rebel friends in the intel mini-retals at some point.
They were tweaked a little, and since then I haven't seen a single turn 1 activation. However, they are probably still possible but they won't be happening every other datatap.
It's definitely still possible, had it happen to me in 1.4. Only happened once so far though.
Clibanarius
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Clibanarius »

Same, I've had it happen twice but that's been over about 10 Intel Mini-Retals.
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by gimrah »

I've had a lot of success with bladenobis in GOps. Blademaster or lone wolf at lcpl makes it reliable early. Smaller pods mean more potential use. I also like tankbladenobi for S&G especially. Sneaknobis still have use for things like vehicle hacks and network towers. I haven't got a shooty one really going yet but I'm trying it - perks like lone wolf and executioner also buff the sword, which helps bridge.

All sharps are good, albeit on different mission types. Holo column is my least favourite but still a good use of a poor aim soldier that becomes a sharp by rookie promotion or rescue.
Omeletteville
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Omeletteville »

Anyone else had a lot of trouble with new retaliation missions? The ones where the reinforcements just keep coming?

I've only played a bit on rookie and I'm currently in progress on veteran, but in my rookie game the one retaliation I experienced was far and away the most difficult mission. I was cocky so I managed to rescue all but one civilian, but at great risk. On veteran it was simply masochistic- you don't know where the reinforcements are coming in, they come in every turn, and the pod sizes get larger and larger.

Granted I got a bit unlucky encountering 3 different faceless-civilians, but in the end I was only able to save 5 of the remaining 10 civilians, losing 2 soldiers in the process. In order to save my 2 soldiers I would've just had to retreat ASAP, rescuing at most 3 civilians.

I know that these missions were pretty damn trivial and repetitive before, but they seem pretty ridiculous now. Surprised that don't see more people complaining, unless I'm missing some obvious solution to dealing with them.
Dlareh
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Re: A Guide for LW2 Players Moving from 1.2 to 1.3

Post by Dlareh »

It's not uncommon for retaliation missions to wipe more than half of your haven's resistance personnel, especially if you don't have a very strong squad for the instant response.

You can reduce the incidence of retaliations by keeping fewer numbers of people on each job, and putting the rest into hiding. Sometimes it's the right move strategically, because hiding also reduces vigilance, meaning strength will eventually move away from that region and to higher-vigilance regions.
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
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