1.3 stealth concerns

[Franzy]

You know, I actually liked stealthing missions in 1.2. First, very thematic. Second, between full stealth missions (hacks and jail breaks), randezvous, and actuall combat missions (troop columns, liberations, destroy relay, extracts and rest) it provided a very nice change of pace. I liked that very much. The only thing I did not like in that regard was stealthing facilities and story missions, because that was just silly.

Watching xwynn's 1.3 campaign made me worry - he did not do a single stealth mission as of yet. And the thing with reinforcements dropping even BEFORE you break concealment... That's just out of reasonable (if that will be configurable in INI I'll definitely disable this feature). I really hope devs won't nerf stealth to the point of total uselessness. I want to still be able to hack workstation and be out of there without ADVENT even noticing. And don't tell me that pods will be easier on these missions... I just don't want every mission to be a combat mission. I want variety, I want change of pace, else it will all become old very fast :/

[Jacke]

I'm concerned about 1.3 too. Not quite for stealth in particular. But there's so many bugfixes and changes that 1.3 will have to be experienced to be sure about it. I think there will be a lot of positive changes. I'll wait until more experience is in before judging it on negative ones.

[RookieAutopsy]

Yeah, I have the same concerns. I really liked that not every mission was a fight and there is a certain satisfaction to completing a mission with none of your guys even being seen. However, hack cheese, particularly where you did not even need to get out after and could just sacrifice a rookie needed sorting. Blanket eliminating stealth missions is a little heavy handed though. You are an underground resistance movement after all.

But I think a good example of how to balance stealth missions is the dark VIP one. You could either bring a squad and drag them out for extra bonuses or send in a sniper with shinobi officer and stealth it for the basic rewards. Maybe the concept of stealth for bare minimum or combat squad for more bonuses could be further developed in future, giving more incentives to going loud and taking away rewards for pure stealth, like dark VIP, but more exaggerated.

[Wigpeeler]

Agreed, we'll see how it actually plays but the tone of the discussion is a concern. Seeing stealth as "easier", or "avoiding" the "core game", is only persuasive from a specific perspective on game play. I enjoyed the stealth missions a great deal and they can be stressful and challenging in their own way - it was fun to solo stealth a VIP out successfully, and made total lore sense. (edit: and as the Op said to stealth was a choice, you were never forced to stealth, that seems like good design). With only a brief period of time to play at night, I find the reinforcements process just an uninteresting frustration that introduces a randomness that makes it a different game. I also don't think it always introduces the mobility incentive that it supposedly does, and quite often forces the opposite. Or it creates such high levels of attrition that don't really make lore sense either as guerilla warfare (what was Xwynn's losses: 16 of 40 troops or something? can't recall). The supply missions were a bigger issue than stealth in 1.2.

The way that the devs are describing pods fixed on the objective location as a kind of punishment for choosing a particular play style I find kind of depressing. It's their game after all, so can't get upset about it, and yes it is not (primarily) a stealth engine, but I'd rather keep the variety of playstyles. Thank god for modders and exposed ini files.

[Tuhalu]

Watching xwynn's 1.3 campaign made me worry - he did not do a single stealth mission as of yet.

He actually did. The first video had him send in 1 Specialist to rescue a Prisoner. It was super risky.

[bingo12345]

this game is about tactical combat. stealth only play must go away. steath should be a tool for scouting and flanking.

[khomotso]

I, too, will be disappointed if the LW2 answer to complaints about stealth play in 1.2 is just to steer away from it. I think a better balance would be found in fleshing out the stealth options in a more interesting way. It is possible - I think a mod like Tactical Suppressors has shown that it is - but it requires a design decision that interesting stealth is part of the experience you're trying to create, and it doesn't seem like 1.3 is going that direction.

[Wigpeeler]

(EDIT: this was for Bingo12345's response) Really? I thought the overall game was intended to be about guerrilla warfare/insurgency - why else have the strategic layer? - in which historically at least tactical combat was a last resort and a very poor option. At any rate, what is intended is irrelevant to the effect. Who really wants to play a campaign of 80+ missions that are all very similar run and gun mobility acts of desperation? I don't. Good design is about options. I think this direction is a mistake, but others appear to want it so I'm happy for them if they get what they want. Life is too short to be mad about it.

edit: I find the insta-reinforcements not very persuasive lore-wise anyway. I spent 7 days observing this location, but they can deploy 4 guys in the moment after I'm spotted, and now perhaps before? I think one problem with the engine/play perhaps is that the sense of real time is lost. These squads are fighting over usually much less than a city block, in say 8-10 turns, and taking maybe 6-10 shots a mission. So basically the equivalent of 5-8 minutes real time, on timed/rescue missions. Yet three-four reinforcement drops can happen in that time? It's not very good design.

[Wigpeeler]

I, too, will be disappointed if the LW2 answer to complaints about stealth play in 1.2 is just to steer away from it. I think a better balance would be found in fleshing out the stealth options in a more interesting way. It is possible - I think a mod like Tactical Suppressors has shown that it is - but it requires a design decision that interesting stealth is part of the experience you're trying to create, and it doesn't seem like 1.3 is going that direction.

Agreed. I don't get the rationale for a response that increases variety in squad sizes (a very minor issue) but channels missions into essentially one style of play. Who was really serious about complaining that they didn't get to use 4-5 squads? I used them not infrequently (especially for prison breaks), mostly not, but it hardly mattered. The addition of even more drones is seriously depressing. I like the effect they had on making stealth a risk, but I don't want to see more of them ringing the deployment zone. Drones seem to me an example of a design that is intended to force mobility but often has the opposite effect.

[Dlareh]

Stealth is generally harder now. Detection ranges are a bit bigger, covertness bonuses are a bit smaller, pods are smaller but more numerous (expect to see a lot more solo drones), and most importantly of all, the infiltration bonuses for very small squads have been greatly reduced. The infil time for a 1-man squad is now very similar to the infil time for a 4-man squad.

All of this doesn’t mean that stealth missions in 1.3 are impossible; they’re still doable, and may occasionally even be the best option (mainly if you don’t have the ability to fight a mission for whatever reason). However, as a general rule, you’ll get better returns from 4-6 man combat squads than from 1-3 man stealth squads.

Basically, things will now be as they should be.

The problem with 1.2 is that this was flipped around. Going stealth with shinobi+specialist teams was very often the best option for many mission types and it was monotonous and boring after about the 5th time you did it. Some of you liked it, some of you want to do 50+ missions like that in a campaign. Fine, tastes differ. But you are a small minority of the playerbase, and many can hardly wait for 1.3's changes because we've grown terribly sick of 1.2's stealth giving consistently better results than combat.

[xwynns]

I specifically said I'm not doing stealth much in my 1.3 public campaign because I just don't feel like doing it. I've done it a lot in private 1.3 campaigns and it's still completely viable and likely still somewhat broken much later in the game. The key differences are that it's not viable on day 1 anymore as you have to actually invest perks into it for a reasonable chance of success, the alternatives are much less risky and more rewarding, and it won't be such a guaranteed auto win every time as it was before after the prerequisite skill is developed.

Anyway, I've spent more time than anyone focusing on balancing stealth and I just don't feel like doing it anymore as a result, but don't let the absence of it in my videos lead you to the incorrect assumption that it's completely and utterly useless. It's still powerful, just less broken.

[khomotso]

Some of you liked it, some of you want to do 50+ missions like that in a campaign. Fine, tastes differ. But you are a small minority of the playerbase, and many can hardly wait for 1.3's changes because we've grown terribly sick of 1.2's stealth giving consistently better results than combat.

I think this sort of response rather misses the point. It's not simply an issue of to-stealth-or-not-to-stealth as the core game and LW2 had left it, which I think everyone would agree was clumsy and not really designed for it. The issue as I see it is that some creative energy might *also* go into making the stealth mechanics more intuitive and engaging, so that when stealth *is* a good option, it also happens to be fun to play.

I think Pavonis would be well served by trying to improve this aspect of play which the vanilla game kind of punted on. You seem to think there are only two options - turn the dial up or down, but keep the mechanics as they are. I'm hoping the LW2 team can exercise a little more imagination.

[Dlareh]

My comment was responding to people who are concerned about 1.3 (see thread title), not those pining for new mechanics in some later, future release.

You're hoping the LW2 team will use their imagination to develop new mechanics, and you're welcome to hope, but I would observe they clearly have their plate full enough at the moment just getting 1.3 ready with a rebalancing of existing things. Many of us are ever-so-patiently waiting for that work to complete : )

Perhaps after 1.3 they'll do some new mechanics. Personally, I'd rather it be new mission types and strategic events rather than new stealth things. There are plenty of games out that are already built with a stronger focus on stealth, whereas XCOM 2 would be a fine game even without concealment being a thing that exists. It's kind of an afterthought.

[chrisb]

I think Pavonis would be well served by trying to improve this aspect of play which the vanilla game kind of punted on. You seem to think there are only two options - turn the dial up or down, but keep the mechanics as they are. I'm hoping the LW2 team can exercise a little more imagination.

You might be overestimating what modders are capable of. There's only so much that can be done as they have to mostly work around a bunch of bad code that often has aspects hard-coded that can't be changed using modding tools, but rather would require LW1 style hex edits which can't be installed via steam.

Personally I would be happy to see stealth vaporized to hell. I think it is a broken mechanic from the start and it poisons the gameplay by forcing a massive initiative that the devs have to balance around. Personally I would push for more disabled squad concealment like Smash & Grab and Extract from city missions. I'm fine with Phantom and I think it adds an interesting angle to engagements but squad concealment is just a bad idea that never should have seen the light of day. My hope would be that future patches would re-balance things so that squad concealment completely disappeared altogether, but I don't know if the devs have that in mind or not.

I would much rather see new mission types, more interesting perks/choices, improvements to the strategy layer and a more engaging end game. Some of which we are seeing in 1.3 and hopefully this trend continues into future patches.

[Saph7]

Stealth as it currently is in 1.2 is broken because it gives you high rewards for zero gear/soldier investment and low risk.

The goal in 1.3 is for stealth to give you medium rewards for medium gear/soldier investment and medium risk. This will inevitably mean making stealth much weaker than it is now. It's still viable, but the risk/reward is much less favourable.

[Clibanarius]

Stealth as it currently is in 1.2 is broken because it gives you high rewards for zero gear/soldier investment and low risk.

The goal in 1.3 is for stealth to give you medium rewards for medium gear/soldier investment and medium risk. This will inevitably mean making stealth much weaker than it is now. It's still viable, but the risk/reward is much less favourable.

This is definitely as it should be. Thanks for the hard work trying to get it to such a balanced state.