Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

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hermescostell
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Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by hermescostell »

I'm wondering if the team considers that asking players to run a series of console commands and editing config files, plus uninstalling the mod and reinstalling (plus other dependent mod juggling) or simply just suggesting players restart their whole campaign ( http://pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB3/vi ... 41&p=42392 )
deaconivory wrote:After speaking with a couple of testers who noticed some buggy behavior after running a 1.2 save with 1.3, I will go back to reminding users that starting a fresh campaign is the best possible option


On a mod which is automatically forced on players via Steam is actually what PI wants in a product of this supposed caliber (post beta, no less)? No migration tool? No internal logic to properly update data automatically? Is this the plan for future patches as well?

Guys I'm trying to help you out. I don't want my predictions to come true about the dwindling fan base, really I don't; I loved LW1, and I want to love LW2 the same amount - plus I want a thriving community around it. Also I'd imagine that on some level Firaxis is watching and starting to wonder if LW3 is going to be money-worthy, and I'm sure you guys don't want things to go there. Is this the end-user experience PI wants to deliver players on a mod which is a partnership with the publisher, from a development house working on its own other title that they want to be held in high esteem?
rakoon79
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by rakoon79 »

You do know people can always unsubscribe LW2 from Steam Workshop, and download manually from NexusMods to simply carry on with 1.2? I don't know, if it's a major overhaul, I feel it's kinda obvious that the previous savefile won't sync well, and I highly doubt every version will be a major overhaul. IMO, you seem over-exaggerating the situation here a bit. While uploading to NexusMods can take significantly a longer time, I believe they are still doing it because they respect end-user's possible choice NOT to upgrade the game at their own discretion and/or rollback to the previous version if they seem the new patch doesn't suit them
hermescostell
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by hermescostell »

I doubt that the extra time it takes to upload both 1.2 and 1.3 to Nexus mods is much of a consideration when taken in context of the volume of work put into LW2. I suspect that supporting Steam is a constant thorn in PI's side, and that they'd frankly rather just have it only on Nexus mods, but that's not realistic for their situation.
bilfdoffle
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by bilfdoffle »

Really? I'm sorry if you felt the migration from 1.2 to 1.3 was too difficult.

No-warning updates are the nature of workshop mods. It affects all workshop mods currently in development. If you don't want that, the mod is also available on the Nexus, or alternatively you can run with a backup of the workshop version, which you would have had plenty of time to do as this has been hinted to be close for months now.

As for the rest of your proposals for mod updates, you'd have to talk to valve, as those are not features available​ to workshop mods (at least not to my knowledge).

We launched 1.3 with very few bugs, and only one of those is to the detriment of the player (with a small chance you'd even notice in the small chance you did even experience it).
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johnnylump
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by johnnylump »

I'll note that all of our work on 1.2 and 1.3 has been on a voluntary and unpaid basis and ask you to not use an inflammatory style in your posts going forward, and we'll be a lot more interested in your feedback.

And just use the Nexus version of the mod and you can update at leisure.
hermescostell
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by hermescostell »

First of all Bilfdoffle THANK YOU so much for your reply which I consider both thoughtful and cordial. In contrast to what I've seen from others in the past it's a great breath of fresh air.
bilfdoffle wrote:Really? I'm sorry if you felt the migration from 1.2 to 1.3 was too difficult. No-warning updates are the nature of workshop mods.
LW is associated with a higher level of features and refinement than the typical mod, I'm sure you'll agree. In this case especially with the hype and resources offered to it I think there's some expectation in place that it's also going to deliver on that expectation. While it's true that for most mods there's little to no warning about updates, I would think this is something the PI team can take in a new, more helpful direction and give the user some kind of one-time on-screen message about the update to 1.3. I do not frequent the forums enough to have known that 1.3 was coming out right when it did.

But let's approach this differently - doesn't PI want the end-user to have the kind of polished experience where a message DOES show up, letting the player know about this? Isn't that a fairly easy task to achieve, and one which would communicate a kind of care for the end-user experience which PI wants to be associated with? Doesn't PI want the end-user to be left with the feeling that they care about the fact that 80+ hours of a campaign aren't going to be suddenly thrown into chaos without warning by a patch rollout?
bilfdoffle wrote: As for the rest of your proposals for mod updates, you'd have to talk to valve, as those are not features available​ to workshop mods (at least not to my knowledge).
The changes which users were expected to do on their own (re-spec soldiers, psi lab scientists, avatar timer, radio towers...) struck me as data changes - the kind of thing which could have been scripted fairly easily, and then run once, post-upgrade from 1.2 to 1.3. Basically if you can describe the steps you expect players to go through then I suspect you could write a script to do it as well (and do it in a more solid way, even).
Daergar
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by Daergar »

Holy flaming goat genitalia roasting over a fire, I thought I had seen bad cases of entitlement before but this was truly the cherry on top of the feces-flavored ice-cream. Simply incredible.
ShockmasterFred
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by ShockmasterFred »

hermescostell wrote:First of all Bilfdoffle THANK YOU so much for your reply which I consider both thoughtful and cordial. In contrast to what I've seen from others in the past it's a great breath of fresh air.
bilfdoffle wrote:Really? I'm sorry if you felt the migration from 1.2 to 1.3 was too difficult. No-warning updates are the nature of workshop mods.
LW is associated with a higher level of features and refinement than the typical mod, I'm sure you'll agree. In this case especially with the hype and resources offered to it I think there's some expectation in place that it's also going to deliver on that expectation. While it's true that for most mods there's little to no warning about updates, I would think this is something the PI team can take in a new, more helpful direction and give the user some kind of one-time on-screen message about the update to 1.3. I do not frequent the forums enough to have known that 1.3 was coming out right when it did.

But let's approach this differently - doesn't PI want the end-user to have the kind of polished experience where a message DOES show up, letting the player know about this? Isn't that a fairly easy task to achieve, and one which would communicate a kind of care for the end-user experience which PI wants to be associated with? Doesn't PI want the end-user to be left with the feeling that they care about the fact that 80+ hours of a campaign aren't going to be suddenly thrown into chaos without warning by a patch rollout?
bilfdoffle wrote: As for the rest of your proposals for mod updates, you'd have to talk to valve, as those are not features available​ to workshop mods (at least not to my knowledge).
The changes which users were expected to do on their own (re-spec soldiers, psi lab scientists, avatar timer, radio towers...) struck me as data changes - the kind of thing which could have been scripted fairly easily, and then run once, post-upgrade from 1.2 to 1.3. Basically if you can describe the steps you expect players to go through then I suspect you could write a script to do it as well (and do it in a more solid way, even).
Are you aware of the condescending, and outright rude tone of your posts? I can't imagine you are ignorant to it, unless it is your habit to continually speak down to people who are working for free to bring you an entertaining experience. PI gave ample notice that 1.3 was imminent, and even a cursory visit to either these forums or Reddit once between mid March and now would have informed you of it's impending arrival. Also, since you say you were a big fan of the original LW, they have followed the same standards and practices they did when releasing updates for that mod, and you should have had some expectation in that direction. It leads me to wonder if your first post was just an impolite and foolish "botch" or more likely, what we can expect from your posts in the future?
hermescostell
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by hermescostell »

johnnylump wrote:I'll note that all of our work on 1.2 and 1.3 has been on a voluntary and unpaid basis

Ok well that sheds a good deal of light on things. I had that general impression but it means more to hear it from the source. I'm both more thankful for the work that has gone into the patches, and also more understanding of the landscape ahead.
johnnylump wrote: ...and ask you to not use an inflammatory style in your posts going forward, and we'll be a lot more interested in your feedback.

You know, the funny thing is I made a different post right before this one, in a fairly matter-of-fact manner, using neutral language and it has no answers. It was intended as an experiment to see what happens when I do that. Damned if I do, damned if I don't, I guess.
DaviBones
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by DaviBones »

Ok guys let's try to stay constructive, fighting flames with more flames is just silly.

Hermes may be coming off as a bit entitled, but he does bring up a good point: If PI is moving towards the professional world of game development, things like pop-ups or notifications telling you that your version has updated and your campaign may no longer be stable are... I won't say expected, but certainly appreciated by a large demographic of players. However, the ability to actually roll back those changes is a luxury you should be grateful for; in case you didn't notice, Steam games don't let you do this. I can't tell you how many hours of Crusader Kings 2 I have lost due to patches, and that is a game by Paradox, one of the biggest developing companies around.

EDIT: also @johnnylump, I had no idea you guys were doing these balance updates pro bono... No idea whether it's because you all simply like the game, or whether out of the integrity of not wanting to leave the product in what you feel is an unfinished state, but either way, PI just gained an enormous amount of respect in my book. It has been said time and time again on these forums, but it bears repeating; thank you for all your hard work PI.
Thrair
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by Thrair »

hermescostell wrote:You know, the funny thing is I made a different post right before this one, in a fairly matter-of-fact manner, using neutral language and it has no answers. It was intended as an experiment to see what happens when I do that. Damned if I do, damned if I don't, I guess.
Just searched your post history. Not seeing it, unless you deleted it. The post before this thread is a question about consoling out doom, which was answered. One before that was answering someone else's question about console commands. Next one back is claiming the forum buries any feedback beyond "we love the mod".

The rest of your posts are from April or earlier.

So.... which post are ya talkin' about?
DaviBones
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by DaviBones »

He may be referring to his "RemoveFortressDoom not working" thread, which received its first reply not long after he made the post saying it didn't have any replies.

Although the language doesn't strike me as particularly neutral, so maybe he did delete the one he's talking about.
Thrair
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by Thrair »

DaviBones wrote:He may be referring to his "RemoveFortressDoom not working" thread, which received its first reply not long after he made the post saying it didn't have any replies.

Although the language doesn't strike me as particularly neutral, so maybe he did delete the one he's talking about.
If that's the case... it means he decided to experiment with being rude because he didn't have a reply within 3 hours (was a bit under 4). On a forum. That people don't check hourly by any stretch.
ShockmasterFred
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by ShockmasterFred »

hermescostell wrote:
johnnylump wrote:I'll note that all of our work on 1.2 and 1.3 has been on a voluntary and unpaid basis

Ok well that sheds a good deal of light on things. I had that general impression but it means more to hear it from the source. I'm both more thankful for the work that has gone into the patches, and also more understanding of the landscape ahead.
johnnylump wrote: ...and ask you to not use an inflammatory style in your posts going forward, and we'll be a lot more interested in your feedback.

You know, the funny thing is I made a different post right before this one, in a fairly matter-of-fact manner, using neutral language and it has no answers. It was intended as an experiment to see what happens when I do that. Damned if I do, damned if I don't, I guess.
The "I was rude because you ignored me" excuse is absurd. It's used by internet creeps when they harass women online. You not getting a response fast enough, because others are working diligently to, you know, improve the game, is just something you need to learn to deal with.
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johnnylump
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Re: Was 1.3 a botched rollout, or a just sign of what's to come?

Post by johnnylump »

@DaviBones ... Thanks.

Beyond that, I don't think this thread is going to lead anywhere constructive, so I'm going to go ahead and lock it down.
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