Retaliations

Rikokrates
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Retaliations

Post by Rikokrates »

I did my first retaliation which was fine, a few faceless to start and the reinforcements every turn as expected.

On my second retaliation, there were a whole bunch of enemies on the map to start with as well as reinforcements every turn! :twisted:

Does anyone know the reason for this? Is it related to advent strength in the region being attacked or something else? Needless to say it was a nasty surprise.
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:43 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by chrisb »

There are two types of full retal missions, one is Haven Defense, the other is the Terror Mission. You got the first and then the second.

On the Haven Defense you just throw an evac, round up the rebels, hold out until the evac comes and GTFO. For the terror type, you kill everything on the map as fast as possible as the unactivated pods will kill rebels between turns. I don't think there's any bias it's just a coin toss as to which you get.

Both are preceded by a protect a data leak relay mission, which if you detect in time you can do, or try to 0% it, to prevent the retal from happening. Or if nothing else, it will give you a heads up that the retal is coming as it will spawn as soon as that mission expires.
Rikokrates
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Rikokrates »

OK, thanks a lot. The second one seems a lot more difficult, especially with the reinforcements every turn that also seem to drop in different locations, unlike the supply convoy defense.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Tuhalu »

Rikokrates wrote:OK, thanks a lot. The second one seems a lot more difficult, especially with the reinforcements every turn that also seem to drop in different locations, unlike the supply convoy defense.
The second one doesn't have reinforcements.

I recall someone had this happen before. Do you have any mods beside LW2 that might be providing other missions? I know of at least one mod that provides a haven defense with that kind of gameplay.
Rikokrates
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Rikokrates »

Nope, only other mods I run are cosmetic ones and extra map packs. I was surprised that the reinforcements kept dropping. I can post a saved game if needs be.
marcness66
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 9:04 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by marcness66 »

I had the same thing happen to me. I am playing Legend Ironman so don't have a save. 3 pods spawned (pod of 6, 2 pods of 4) on top of each other right next to the evac and where the squad spawned. 1 pod activated before the turn started and there were reinforcements every turn. Only 3 members of the squad made it out and I lost 13 of the 14 rebels I had in that region.

I think I might just end up avoiding all retals in the future.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: Retaliations

Post by trihero »

What's the min strength required for retals/mini-retals? 4 or 5?
Rikokrates
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Rikokrates »

marcness66 wrote:I had the same thing happen to me. I am playing Legend Ironman so don't have a save. 3 pods spawned (pod of 6, 2 pods of 4) on top of each other right next to the evac and where the squad spawned. 1 pod activated before the turn started and there were reinforcements every turn. Only 3 members of the squad made it out and I lost 13 of the 14 rebels I had in that region.

I think I might just end up avoiding all retals in the future.

Ouch, that's really nasty. Is this a bug then as it seems that this isn't what the devs intended.
JM01
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:29 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by JM01 »

Rikokrates wrote:I did my first retaliation which was fine, a few faceless to start and the reinforcements every turn as expected.

On my second retaliation, there were a whole bunch of enemies on the map to start with as well as reinforcements every turn! :twisted:

Does anyone know the reason for this? Is it related to advent strength in the region being attacked or something else? Needless to say it was a nasty surprise.
That second retaliation type you are describing there sounds like the haven defense from Reality Machina's Additional Mission Types mod. That mod was the first to introduce haven defense and in that one you have a few pods that are already on the map and then reinforcements every turn. You also get rebels to help you fight in that mission. If you got any rebels in that second retal that helped you then it was the Additional Mission Types mod.
Rikokrates
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Rikokrates »

JM01 wrote:
Rikokrates wrote:I did my first retaliation which was fine, a few faceless to start and the reinforcements every turn as expected.

On my second retaliation, there were a whole bunch of enemies on the map to start with as well as reinforcements every turn! :twisted:

Does anyone know the reason for this? Is it related to advent strength in the region being attacked or something else? Needless to say it was a nasty surprise.
That second retaliation type you are describing there sounds like the haven defense from Reality Machina's Additional Mission Types mod. That mod was the first to introduce haven defense and in that one you have a few pods that are already on the map and then reinforcements every turn. You also get rebels to help you fight in that mission. If you got any rebels in that second retal that helped you then it was the Additional Mission Types mod.
The only rebels were the ones who needed rescuing, though it does sound fun having rebels defend themselves, especially as at the start of the mission Bradford is always saying how the resistance is training and getting ready....
aceone
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:16 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by aceone »

After 1.3 came in place, there was a HUGE spike in difficulty. Its getting really brutal now.

Sometimes its really annoying, because you do your `safe missions` up to strenght 3 and everything is fine. You build your squad, resources, rebells...

But you need STR 4 or more to get troop ambushes mission spawn, due to need of corpses. Still, everything is fine.

But STR is going up fast and even you work hard to finally have an edge in an area, and having like 10+ rebells there. Advent get notice and spawms more missions , where rebells are involved. Like prevent data leak or heaven defense/terror, where you`ll very likely loose quite few rebells.

And then you`ll have to start all over again,and work hard again to increase rebells numbers, and so on...

What bothers me more than difficult missions is that, recently when advent started to took notice of the rebell HQ, i hid most of my rebells. But nevertheless when the next terror mission popped up, i had to rescue all of them!

Just my 2 cents

regards
DonCrabio
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by DonCrabio »

With retaliation mechanics rework rebels is just expendables now. Why even bother trying to save them? Only more deaths and wounds come from it.
Rebus
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Rebus »

Agreed on the difficulty being a bit out of hand, at Vet/Ir level at least. No mission mods on, just got first Retaliation 1 in one of earliest liberated zones, Force Level 12, in region where everyone was on hiding, with two on recruit, for last week and half (after supply binge which I admit I forgot about sooner). STR is only 4 in one unliberated region adjacent. Fortunately had my top squad was free, a few exo sets, good Spark, but clearly needed a hell of lot more nanomed kits. Urban map with ridiculous blocked sight lines, poor cover (though doesn't make much difference with bunch of Archers on map and grenade happy mutons), and relay tower tucked in middle of a building that took 4 full moves to even get in sight of, past two pods. 20-24 baddies on map to start, rnf start on turn 3 at 4 bads, then every turn: archons, centurions, etc. Bah. Five guys bleeding out now all with my only medkits, one heavy mec converted but can't hit a trooper in light cover from two squares away, bah. Killed tower in turn 6 but still got rnf that turn dropped on my head. Sigh. If the point of these is just to cull your haven personnel, then can you please just have the engine do it without needing a brutal fight :roll: Seems over the top for Vet. Not sure why some citizens just disappear when you enter their blue circles, but don't count to your rescues.

Fun is subjective certainly, but not entirely. LW2 is a brilliant challenge definitely, and not all (or many?) challenges are fun. It is striking, though, that the word fun, or its sense, hardly ever appears on these forums. For a game forum it is remarkably serious stuff, as well as the despondent, aggravated, etc. Reminds me of old board game discussions, like Squad Leader thirty years ago. A thousand hours in on XC2, hundred or so in LW2, and I often find myself wondering: is it actually fun? Satisfying challenge sure, and maybe that is enough. With the (gleefully done it seemed) death of stealth and decline of supply raids, the bulk of missions play out essentially the exact same way now, one after the other, over and over, with little variation. S&G was a brief novelty but the playstyle ends up the same as prison break or any of the other timed missions. I'm not a designer so I don't really know what would make it more fun (if that is a worthy goal): if my units can panic why can't they also go berserk/heroic? What about taunts, or victory animations (a little goes a long way of course)? Certainly the game captures the grim fight, but the background banter on the Avenger suggests the original designers recognized some levity was necessary as balance. My useless opinion is that some of that needs to come back in now. I'm close to done with LW2 I think. It is just too relentlessly more of the same.
trihero
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Re: Retaliations

Post by trihero »

Good feedback Rebus.

I will say that it's fairly predictable that 1.4 would either be too easy, or too hard, with so many balance changes that only underwent a few runs by a handful of testers. I'm sure they gave it a lot of tries and effort, and there's no personal attacks here so get over yourself if you're reading this and think it is a personal attack, but it's simply a fact with so many balance changes, and even new mechanics, that the game isn't going to land on a balanced state from the jump from 1.2 to 1.3/1.4 on all difficulties. It just comes with the territory, and I'm honestly already at the point where I'm telling myself maybe it's time to take another break (I took a 3 month break from 1.2 until 1.3 released), and maybe that's the most well-adjusted thing to do.

Also the devs here have a strange idea and I've had one of them say it straight to my face that if you complain, they find it odd and insulting because this mod is free. Shrug. It's very strange because for one, we're playing for free too and the feedback we give is free even though it represents thousands of hours of input and work. For two, does that mean we have the right to complain if they released a pay-to-play game, which they are obviously looking to do in the future? Anyways, it's definitely a valid question to ask if you are having fun in the game, and while it's subjective, it's also simultaneously frustrating when you run into people who think the game is fine as is and see YOU as the problem when you try to give feedback about it.
Rebus
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Rebus »

Good points, Trihero. You are right on the balancing of balance issue (all the iterations of LW1 for instance). I know I'll be back playing some point in the future (probably tonight! hehe) because the challenge is satisfying; I just wish it was sometimes more than that. I am immensely grateful of PI for what they have done here. It is really extraordinary dedication and a huge gift to the community. It also puts Firaxis' quick silence on their game into unflattering light, but that's another matter. There are plenty of people on the forum who clearly want a kind of mechanical game - chess is often invoked - and that's great if they enjoy it. But it is ultimately a single-player game with fairly predictable AI (even if PI did an amazing job complicating things - stun lancer behaviour for instance). It puzzles me that even if it has no effect on them at all, there were so many who seemed personally offended that some people chose stealth in 1.2, when you were never forced to do it (which seemed like good design to me). At least it offered some variety over the run and gun sameness now. S&G shows that the engine can be adapted, and doubtless we'll see more. Always room for growth.
caseywills
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:45 am

Re: Retaliations

Post by caseywills »

I had a "Defense" type retaliation in a strength 3 region. This was very early on, which made it pretty hard to respond as shooting classes are weaker in the early game. It pretty much killed my campaign.
The "Defense" type retaliations used to be too easy. Now they are brutal.


Discard the above... I thought I was only allowed 6 guys. When taking a full the complement of 8, the mission was very doable. I ended up with a few scratches and lost 2 rebels. Better balanced, for me.
Last edited by caseywills on Wed May 31, 2017 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jacke
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Retaliations

Post by Jacke »

I agree with Rebus and trihero. And I'm glad I'm not the only person who's experiences go back to Squad Leader (and further).

Like trihero, I'd stopped playing 1.2 and was waiting for 1.3 (now 1.4) to come out. But now I'm not sure I'd enjoy playing, as I stopped 1.2 when faced with retaliations that were going to gut my rebels and XCOM without me being able to do much about it. And that appears to be worse, not better. There appear to be other issues too.

So I'm waiting and watching Xwynns' videos and keeping up with these forums to see how things are.
Sir_Dr_D
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:28 am

Re: Retaliations

Post by Sir_Dr_D »

Yeah, that is a good question to ask. Are things actually fun?

It is okay for things to be challenging. But we need to be awarded for defeating a challenge. And the way that retaliations work is that we are never awarded for success, we are punished for it. Personally, and I assume most people, would want to build up a haven. Keep on making it stronger. Keeping on having it destroyed, without anything we can do about it just isn't fun. If the reason for it is to prevent XCOM from getting too much supplies or intel points, then a diminishing returns system could be put in place. Or every haven, radio tower, and rebel could cost a monthly maintenance of supplies. That way we need fully functional havens in order to expand further. The fact is it is more fun for players, if there is an expensive goal to achieve, then if what we have keeps getting taken away.

The retaliation missions them selves could be made fun. Having missions with expendable chaff that your soldiers can try to save, is a nice change of pace. But that is if a loss isn't so major as losing a haven member which you had to work so hard to get there in the first place. I think only one (or maybe 2 or 3 determined randomly) of the rebels in a mini retaliation should be a haven member. The rest are underlings to the haven member. The haven member should have decent equipment. The underlings can be almost naked like they are now. Saving the haven member should be hard, but reasonably doable. The underlings though can be very hard to save, but a fun challenge to try. Each underling lost could cause a temporary loss afterwards to intel, supplies or recruit for a period of. But each underling we are lucky enough to save should provide a reward, such as getting that underling as a recruit afterwards, or maybe just an experience bonus to the haven member.(I would like to see haven members have more then 3 levels)

We would also need a way to be able to eventually halt or slow down retaliation missions. One way would be if hide does not mean the rebel hides, but they hide the haven 's activities (by having multiple levels of communication hierachy, etc) Every rebel on hide makes those working harder to detect. And if it takes 2 rebels on hide, to almost completely hide the actions of one rebel doing a task then the haven would be at max efficiency at 39 members. (or maybe less if you count experience) It gives as something to always work towards :)

-------------
So to make the game more fun I am saying:
- we want to keep growing havens in both numbers, and their members experience. I myself care about liberating the world and raising an army, more then care about the avatar project.
- Restoring haven members is exhausting and tedious. Don't have the results of a retaliation mean multiple dead haven members. Instead the aliens can just steal some supplies , or similar.
- missions where we have to defend expendables would be fun if the cost of the loss of one of them is minor
- have ways for us to slow down retaliations while still building havens.
Rikokrates
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Rikokrates »

I just had a different version of a retaliation, I've never seen it before.

Rebels on a recruiting mission got busted, Xcom squad goes in to extract the rebels, Big Sky returns for the squad, mission intel says it's extremely light but reinforcements keep dropping. It's a brutal but fun mission.
DonCrabio wrote:With retaliation mechanics rework rebels is just expendables now. Why even bother trying to save them? Only more deaths and wounds come from it.
I am inclined to agree with DonCrabio, there isn't any real reward with the exception of "unhindered operations" in that field. The missions are getting really challenging and i'm thinking of not bothering to help the rebels and just focusing on contacting other regions instead. It's possible by having all regions unlocked I can just do missions with low strength levels and not risk my precious soldiers. This might possibly be how the game has been designed to be played, i'm beginning to regret my Ironman choice now as once that mission starts....
Icarus
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:26 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Icarus »

Had my first full retal in June and switched the "show reinforcement flare" on. That makes it a bit more manageable.
aceone
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:16 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by aceone »

Icarus wrote:Had my first full retal in June and switched the "show reinforcement flare" on. That makes it a bit more manageable.
This is a good suggestion for balance.

I`m having my 2nd heaven defence, and its ridiculusly hard! Even with flare enabled, i am surrounded pretty quickly. Resisting 7 turns w/reinforcemens every turn, where pods drop wherever out of sight, its pretty damn hard.

So i agree and suggest, flare enabled at least for heaven defence.
Icarus
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:26 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Icarus »

Another thing would be to allow 8 soldiers for the defence. Does anyone know if this can be done via .ini?
DonCrabio
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by DonCrabio »

In my current Vet/Non-Ironman campaign I had first Intel retaliation before first SGT soldier. I loaded into mission, found myself 5 full dashes from datatap and 3 rebels already surrounded by two pods. Total frustration, no chance to win or save some allies. OK. I just loaded last globe save and never will bother with Intel retaliations again.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by Tuhalu »

In my latest datatap, at light-medium strength, I had 2 entire pods spawn in vision of the datatap.

Unfortunately for them, they were also mostly in vision of my 8 man team. All 9 of them died in a single turn as I swarmed on top of them with flank shots everywhere. The other two pods turned up in the next turn and took a little bit longer to kill. I think I had one soldier with 3 damage.

Retaliations play quite differently than normal missions. Sometimes things go horribly wrong, but its often possible to win quite handily.

The main rewards of retaliations are instant XP from all those enemy kills (no infiltration time!) and loot from enemies that start on the map.
DonCrabio
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: Retaliations

Post by DonCrabio »

Personally, I don't find rewards good enough for risks and frustration taken.
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