Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Shaenix
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am

Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Shaenix »

Patch 1.3 Notes:
- Advanced Grenade Launcher now grants +2 range and +0 radius over regular GL, instead of +1/+1.
- Increased sapper env damage bonus by 1 to make it more reliable.
I was disappointed by Sapper+CE Grenadier in 1.1 so I decided to try fire/acid/gas Full Kit Grenadier in the next campaign.
But I'm not sure anymore: Since fire/acid grenades only have a base radius of 1, the final radius would be 1(base)+1(Launcher)+1(Volatile Mix)=3 or 4 if you upgrade them into bombs? Radius of 3 is like a normal frag radius and you can hardly do any AOE with that...

Is my math wrong? Can someone share the experience of using fire/acid grenades post patch 1.3 in real combat? I'm very concerned about their AOE capability.
How about Sapper and CE now? Maybe the 1 extra env dmg would make a difference?

P.S: Sapper Grenadier in my current 1.4 campaign still often do 1 dmg to an enemy who is behind a heavy cover if you aim the grenade at the cover instead of the enemy. I know it's more realistic because the heavy cover absorbed the shockwave but it pisses me every time. :(
stefan3iii
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:49 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by stefan3iii »

I think incendiaries continue to be one of the strongest grenades. Every grenadier should probably take heavy ordinance and an incendiary. They're also great on non grenadiers. For most of the game they disable a unit entirely, incredibly effective at controlling high HP targets.

Only grenade that might be stronger is sting grenade.

Acid grenades continue to be bad.
Doctor Sticks
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:40 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Doctor Sticks »

Fire grenades all the way.

All other explosives kind of suck, other than rockets.

Plasma grenades are expensive to research, and still cost elerium cores (wtf?).

Then, you need Advanced Explosives Project which only allows you to BUILD the bombs, it doesn't upgrade anything. All things considered, explosives need a second look, as it stands, you only ever need fire grenades and Sting Flashbangs. Maybe a Frost Grenade if you have the DLC, and the occasional smoke. But fire grenade is the only one I used that wasn't available from the start.
Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Jacke »

stefan3iii wrote:Acid grenades continue to be bad.
I thought Acid Grenades excel in shredding several layers of armour, like on the big tough beasties.
stefan3iii
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:49 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by stefan3iii »

Jacke wrote:
stefan3iii wrote:Acid grenades continue to be bad.
I thought Acid Grenades excel in shredding several layers of armour, like on the big tough beasties.
Yeah, but it's a very expensive way to do it. Takes up an item slot, costs a turn ending action, is consumable, and doesn't even strip all armor. And it's a very late tech. Would like to see them actually be a big fuck you to sectopods and gate keepers. Like auto strip all armor, and rupture for 3, then they'd be worth researching.

Currently, there are better options. For example, a shredstorm cannon takes off 4 armor as well as doing high damage in a massive AOE. Or just stick shredder ammo on a ranger, which will let you strip off armor from enemies, while actually damaging them.

Gas grenades are the worst grenade though. I think a plain flash bang is better than a gas grenade. Grenades really need some balance attention.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Tuhalu »

Shaenix wrote: I was disappointed by Sapper+CE Grenadier in 1.1 so I decided to try fire/acid/gas Full Kit Grenadier in the next campaign.
But I'm not sure anymore: Since fire/acid grenades only have a base radius of 1, the final radius would be 1(base)+1(Launcher)+1(Volatile Mix)=3 or 4 if you upgrade them into bombs? Radius of 3 is like a normal frag radius and you can hardly do any AOE with that...

Is my math wrong? Can someone share the experience of using fire/acid grenades post patch 1.3 in real combat? I'm very concerned about their AOE capability.
The only point at which Fire Grenades are nerfed compared to 1.2 is when you have the Advanced Grenade Launcher and Bomb research. In 1.2, I was going full hog on Plasma Weapons before getting either of those things.

Having said that, AGL buffed Fire Grenades with all those other bonuses were ridiculous. A Fire Grenade ambush could basically kill or disable every enemy in an 8 man advent pod. Now you just get to kill or disable most of the enemies in an 8 man advent pod... Or if you only have volatile mix, you can kill/disable 3-4 guys in a pod. Even with no particular buff but your basic grenade launcher, you can reliably delete a couple targets. Obviously these numbers come down after the initial ambush, but it's still quite powerful.

Lately, xwynns has been bringing an Incendiary Grenade on his Flamer Technicals and giggling with glee as he deletes a single target with it... so it's not like it's useless even with a small radius.
Daergar
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:47 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Daergar »

All my grenadiers are full left tree specced, works like a charm. They get a vest, three fire nades and can lock down everything from a pod to a single elite muton with one action for at least two rounds. To me they are a staple for almost any engagement.

In mid-game, and with a little scouting, you get to launch from out of sight and unconcealed into pods; there was much rejoicing. Firebombs higher damage and aoe simply make it a glee-fest.
Shaenix
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Shaenix »

Thank you for all your replies!
It seems that I was blinded by the bonus radius nerfing and forgot about how stronk the fire nades are. I'll keep using them. :D
stefan3iii wrote:
Jacke wrote:
stefan3iii wrote:Acid grenades continue to be bad.
I thought Acid Grenades excel in shredding several layers of armour, like on the big tough beasties.
Yeah, but it's a very expensive way to do it. Takes up an item slot, costs a turn ending action, is consumable, and doesn't even strip all armor. And it's a very late tech. Would like to see them actually be a big fuck you to sectopods and gate keepers. Like auto strip all armor, and rupture for 3, then they'd be worth researching.
Gas grenades are the worst grenade though. I think a plain flash bang is better than a gas grenade. Grenades really need some balance attention.
A HEAT Warheads Grenadier can shred 4/5 armor with acid grenades/bombs, and that's pretty much all armor except for a legendary Sectopod(8). Unless you take the other 2 skills, but with the nerf of Launcher bonus radius and Dense Smoke defense in 1.3, I stick with HEAT.
I do agree that it's a very late tech. Maybe make grenades easier to get in the early game and make the bombs an FU to heavy armor units in the late game. Would like to see acid burn doing something interesting or unique to robotic enemies instead of the boring DOT.
For Gas Grenades, I treat them as damaging flash bangs. I would take them for big fights like base assault or supply raid where there are a lot of enemies. You can not only damage a lot of activated enemies, but also potentially poison incoming yellow alert pods with the remaining gas cloud thanks to the sound mechanic. But I wouldn't use them in everyday guerrilla ops: the worst thing is to wait for a gas cloud between your squad and the objective to disappear while the timer is ticking. LMAO
Daergar wrote: In mid-game, and with a little scouting, you get to launch from out of sight and unconcealed into pods;
I've never thought about that. So with the change of Grenade Launcher in 1.3, you can launch a fire grenade(or must be a bomb) beyond 18 tiles? Or you mean to ambush pods using LOS?
Daergar
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:47 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Daergar »

Shaenix wrote:
Daergar wrote: In mid-game, and with a little scouting, you get to launch from out of sight and unconcealed into pods;
I've never thought about that. So with the change of Grenade Launcher in 1.3, you can launch a fire grenade(or must be a bomb) beyond 18 tiles? Or you mean to ambush pods using LOS?
Ah, I mean using LOS. Fire from a roof while standing back from the edge, over a fence and so on. The point being that you can do this while still revealed if you scout with a shinobi.

Fire nade or fire bomb both work wonders, I can't see myself playing without them at the moment. Burning is simply too powerful, as long as you got the damage and squad to take advantage of it.
stefan3iii
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:49 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by stefan3iii »

Shaenix wrote: For Gas Grenades, I treat them as damaging flash bangs. I would take them for big fights like base assault or supply raid where there are a lot of enemies. You can not only damage a lot of activated enemies, but also potentially poison incoming yellow alert pods with the remaining gas cloud thanks to the sound mechanic. But I wouldn't use them in everyday guerrilla ops: the worst thing is to wait for a gas cloud between your squad and the objective to disappear while the timer is ticking. LMAO
Issue is gas doesn't disable abilities the way flash does. So viper will grab, muton will grenade, Rocketeer will end your campaign, etc. Still need to flash.
Last edited by stefan3iii on Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
WanWhiteWolf
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 10:09 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

All my squads (8 at the moment - and probably won't make more) have a grenadier. I am close to the end of campaign so I can share my view:

Special grenades

They got quite a significant nerf due to minus radius. At this point:

Gas grenade - Pretty useless. Not even worth the slot in the inventory. Flashbang is simply better for the same purpose. I think it needs something like -20 aim extra to be viable. End game enemies have 100+ aim. The aim malus from a gas grenade is pretty insignificant.

Acid grenades - Pretty weak as well. In theory they are armor removals but in practice they are to weak / there are better option to do that. I think a buff of +2 / +3 armor removal is needed to make them viable.

Fire grenades - It's one of the best grenades in the game. Not that it is overpowered; but it's the only one who actually does something - it prevents one BIO enemy from shooting you; while also weakening for next turn. This is quite useful as you cannot kill most of the time the strong bio enemies - like muton elite - in the turn they spawn. And even without crit, if they hit you, that soldier dies. I lost my tank build assault to a non-crit elite muton.

You will not be able to burn multiple enemies without volatile (I think I managed once to burn 2 enemies in my entire campaign). However, volatile mix is against salvo and for me that's to strong to pass.

Support grenades

Frozen grenade (DLC) - Best grenade in the game. if you put it one a support grenadier build, you get one extra. So 2 frozen grenades / mission is quite a significant party buff. You only have one so .... that's usually for the grenadier in the main squad. It's range it's 2 tiles so you can also get more enemies if they are clustered.

Flashbangs - They are pretty strong early game. They lose their strength later due to the fact the a fixed minus aim, is less significant when enemies have 100+ aim. They still remain viable as ability restriction for enemies like sectoid commander / rocketeer ...etc. I usually keep 1 in squad but not necessarily on grenadier

Smoke - I think they are to circumstantial and their effect was nerfed as well. Might be used on aggressive missions since it allows you to play risky with assaults and reapers. You can always use protocol + smoke and even a flanked unit has a reasonable chance to not get hit. They lose their purpose end game - at least for me.

As for sapper vs support build:
The fact that sapper was buffed with +1 env damage means a lot of the cover can be destroyed for the tile you are targeting. So if a soldier is behind a wall, your grenade needs to target the wall - not the soldier. That tile will get 10 damage and thus leaving the soldier flanked. Without engineer perk (MSGT) you will not be able to take down chunks of cover / take down a wall. Also, some object have have 20 or so env resistance so you won't be able to take them down (trees, building columns ...etc).

I think early game the support grenadier is a bit stronger due to the fact that it can move and use 2 grenades (1 support, 1 damage). I usually go salvo + kit on them. They end up carrying 6 fire grenades, 2 flashbangs or 2 frozen.

I also have full sapper builds. I think both are viable end game. It does seem tho , that until they get salvo or volatile, they are a bit lacking. 1 plasma grenade / encounter is usually not good enough to compensate for having +1 soldier. You might as well over infiltrate and have - 1 pod.
Last edited by WanWhiteWolf on Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
wobuffet
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:09 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by wobuffet »

Agree with a lot of what's been said in this topic, especially by WanWhiteWolf.
WanWhiteWolf wrote:Gas grenade - Pretty useless. Not even worth the slot in the inventory. Flashbang is simply better for the same purpose. I think it needs something like -20 aim extra to be viable. End game enemies have 100+ aim. The aim malus from a gas grenade is pretty insignificant.
Yep. Maybe wider base radius, larger aim malus?
Acid grenades - Pretty weak as well. In theory they are armor removals but in practice they are to weak / there are better option to do that. I think a buff of +2 / +3 armor removal is needed to make them viable.
I think a radius boost would work pretty well here. Maybe +1 more Rupture too.
Smoke - I think they are to circumstantial and their effect was nerfed as well. Might be used on aggressive missions since it allows you to play risky with assaults and reapers. You can always use protocol + smoke and even a flanked unit has a reasonable chance to not get hit. They lose their purpose end game - at least for me.
Right now, a smoke grenade gives +20 defense, right?

How about +20 defense, +40 dodge?
User avatar
WanWhiteWolf
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 10:09 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

wobuffet wrote:Agree with a lot of what's been said in this topic, especially by WanWhiteWolf.
WanWhiteWolf wrote:Gas grenade - Pretty useless. Not even worth the slot in the inventory. Flashbang is simply better for the same purpose. I think it needs something like -20 aim extra to be viable. End game enemies have 100+ aim. The aim malus from a gas grenade is pretty insignificant.
Yep. Maybe wider base radius, larger aim malus?
Acid grenades - Pretty weak as well. In theory they are armor removals but in practice they are to weak / there are better option to do that. I think a buff of +2 / +3 armor removal is needed to make them viable.
I think a radius boost would work pretty well here. Maybe +1 more Rupture too.
Smoke - I think they are to circumstantial and their effect was nerfed as well. Might be used on aggressive missions since it allows you to play risky with assaults and reapers. You can always use protocol + smoke and even a flanked unit has a reasonable chance to not get hit. They lose their purpose end game - at least for me.
Right now, a smoke grenade gives +20 defense, right?

How about +20 defense, +40 dodge?
The main difference between flashbang and poison grenade is -5 aim at the cost of restricting enemy abilities + bigger radius. You also do 1 damage / turn but that's hardly a consideration when almost all enemies have between 15-25 HP. I think inflicting a stronger aim penalty would make them good enough. If you simply add bigger radius to them, they would still be weaker version of FLASHbangs.
I think that having something like scale aim reduction (e.g. 40-50%) would not break the balance if you rush them - since poisoning an enemy with 70 aim would give you similar benefit from a FLASHbang; but they would be quite powerfull against 100+ aim enemies. You also have to keep in mind that poison doesn't work on several enemies (e.g. Viper, MECS,Crystalids Shieldbearer (?) ) whereas FLASHbangs - with the proper training - do just fine.

You can apply rupture with most - I think all (?)) plasma weapons apply rupture on hit. I feel that the game lacks a bit in heavy armor removal. You need to spend 2-3 actions to remove the armor from sectopods / gatekeepers / heavy MECS ...etc. I have plenty options to apply rupture; but not to many cost effective options to remove armor. The best one I think it's a pistol on Technical - since you can shoot multiple times - but he died in my campaign before I can test it and it's difficult to make the full pistol train again.

I think a dodge chance would we nice for smoke grandes. I would also consider it if it would last something like 3 turns. On a lot of the non-timed missions you look for a good spot and you start the fight;afterwards most of the map typically charges at your location. Having a smoke for 2-3 people on a key position would be a pretty strong option.

Keep in mind you cannot - or at least I would not - use smoke on the "whole squad" as the enemy will simply use it's special abilities or nuke you; which is worse than not having the smoke to begin with. But transforming 2 half cover spots into full cover for 3 turns would worth the slot.
Last edited by WanWhiteWolf on Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Shaenix
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Shaenix »

WanWhiteWolf wrote:All my squads (8 at the moment - and probably won't make more) have a grenadier. I am close to the end of campaign so I can give you some feedback:
I never reached end game before. Thank you very much for sharing those end game information: they are very helpful .
Gas grenade - Pretty useless. Not even worth the slot in the inventory. Flashbang is simply better for the same purpose. I think it needs something like -20 aim extra to be viable. End game enemies have 100+ aim. The aim malus from a gas grenade is pretty insignificant.
I'm at early game and gas grenade seems better than flash at the moment because most enemies can only shot at you. But I've never considered about mid-late game where most enemies will just use their abilities if you restric their aim. I've already made 3 gas grenades but I'm afraid you are right. I would put those resources into something else next time.
Acid grenades - Pretty weak as well. In theory they are armor removals but in practice they are to weak / there are better option to do that. I think a buff of +2 / +3 armor removal is needed to make them viable.
My concern is I would use Archon corpses to build Fusion Blade 1st. By the time you get enough corpses, maybe you already have the "better option"?
You will not be able to burn multiple enemies without volatile (I think I managed once to burn 2 enemies in my entire campaign). However, volatile mix is against salvo and for me that's to strong to pass.
That's the reason why I started this topic in the 1st place. Based on your experience, the radius nerf seems to have a very big impact on fire grenades. Taking salvo and wear an EXO/WAR suit seems like the way to go now I think about it.
As for sapper vs support build:
The fact that sapper was buffed with +1 env damage means a lot of the cover can be destroyed for the tile you are targeting. So if a soldier is behind a wall, your grenade needs to target the wall - not the soldier. That tile will get 10 damage and thus leaving the soldier flanked. Without engineer perk (MSGT) you will not be able to take down chunks of cover / take down a wall. Also, some object have have 20 or so env resistance so you won't be able to take them down (trees, building columns ...etc).
I'm aware that some object have more HP than others and you need to aim at the object for maximum destruction. But have you seen enemies taking less damage because they are behind a heavy object(like a metal box) while you are trying to remove it? I don't think high cover provide DR in LW2. I get pissed off if I see an enemy takes 1 damage when the mimium damage says 2. There's something going on here but I don't understand, and I don't like being like that.
I also have full sapper builds. I think both are viable end game. It does seem tho , that until they get salvo or volatile, they are a bit lacking. 1 plasma grenade / encounter is usually not good enough to compensate for having +1 soldier. You might as well over infiltrate and have - 1 pod.
I take Airdrop on my specialist(most of them are overwatch build) and it never disappointed me.
Dlareh
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Dlareh »

Shaenix wrote:I get pissed off if I see an enemy takes 1 damage when the mimium damage says 2. There's something going on here but I don't understand, and I don't like being like that.
Armor? Or, just the status effect on the next turn?
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
User avatar
WanWhiteWolf
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 10:09 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

Shaenix wrote: I'm aware that some object have more HP than others and you need to aim at the object for maximum destruction. But have you seen enemies taking less damage because they are behind a heavy object(like a metal box) while you are trying to remove it? I don't think high cover provide DR in LW2. I get pissed off if I see an enemy takes 1 damage when the mimium damage says 2. There's something going on here but I don't understand, and I don't like being like that.
You have to keep an eye on the armor. Grenades do not ignore armor without training (there is a perk that adds armor pierce + extra shred; missing the name now). So 2 HP/1 Armor enemy is not a guaranteed kill for a standard grenade. I never had a single point of damage on a non-armored enemy; but there might be some mechanics that I do not know about.

As for the Airdrop, I also have it on all specialists. Once you have the plasma grenades researched, it will give you plasma grenades. So at least at start, your air-dropped grenades will be better than what your grenadier carries. I feel plasma grenades are quite expensive; so I usually buy them only for my main squad and 1 for the other teams / none for those who have an air-dropper.

One of the things you have to keep an eye for is the lack of ablative armor. For a MSGT with kit, having 2 extra fire grenades means having no Vest. This means that any scratch he takes, he will go to medbay.

Sometimes you need to move to half cover for that sweet grenade. For the grenadier I would always keep an eye for:
- Low-profile AWG perk
- Tact sense AWG perk
- Extra conditioning AWG perk
- Implacable AWG perk
- High defense starting value (means the enemies won't target him over the other soldiers)
- Defense / HP or the Wounds-reduction + poison/fire immunity as PCS

Higher HP means that he will take less time in medbay for the same amount of HP lost. (I think it works with % of HP lost; but I don't have the data).
Shaenix
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Shaenix »

WanWhiteWolf wrote: You have to keep an eye on the armor. Grenades do not ignore armor without training (there is a perk that adds armor pierce + extra shred; missing the name now). So 2 HP/1 Armor enemy is not a guaranteed kill for a standard grenade. I never had a single point of damage on a non-armored enemy; but there might be some mechanics that I do not know about.
I understand how armor works and that happened during March or April, so I'm pretty sure it's not due to armor since enemies don't have armor that early on in the game.
I also got 1 or 0 damage rockets from time to time. I know they can scatter, but to me, it looks more like the rocket scattered into a heavy cover like the concret column of Advent building and the damage got "absorbed". One can argue that 0 damage means scatter, but how do you explain 1 damage rocket? I think I have a video reference for it. Let me know if interested.
One of the things you have to keep an eye for is the lack of ablative armor. For a MSGT with kit, having 2 extra fire grenades means having no Vest. This means that any scratch he takes, he will go to medbay.
Sometimes you need to move to half cover for that sweet grenade. For the grenadier I would always keep an eye for:
- Low-profile AWG perk
- Tact sense AWG perk
- Extra conditioning AWG perk
- Implacable AWG perk
- High defense starting value (means the enemies won't target him over the other soldiers)
- Defense / HP or the Wounds-reduction + poison/fire immunity as PCS
Thanks for the tips. I use grenadiers as my officers, so they are well equipped and protected. Usually I bring a plating on regular missions and extra nades for big missions.
Dwarfling
Posts: 524
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:16 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Dwarfling »

Grenades and Rockets do less damage the further they're away from the point of detonation, unless you get Tandem Warheads, which counters this mechanic. That would explain why you're getting 1 damage. I think it also happens when the explosion has to go around a solid object. I've never seen a "0 damage" message. If no message popped up and you just did no damage then assume scatter from a rocket, or buggy UI telling you it was going to hit (happens to me from time to time with the edges of a flamethrower's cone).
Dlareh
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Dlareh »

The dropoff is calculated using probabilities that make it randomly decrease according to how far away it is from the center, but it's still within the range of 2-5 or 2-7 or whatever, as far as I know.

1 damage isn't possible short of armor/shield, unless my memory is completely failing me.

Status effects like burning on the next turn can give 1-3
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
Daergar
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:47 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Daergar »

For me, taking salvo over increased AoE is plain crazy. If I am not moving my grenadier and then locking down a pod or one/two enemies with fire, I am doing something wrong. I assume it comes down to play-style and squad composition, which is awesome; having multiple tools and ways to use them equals fun and replay value.

I'm glad I don't have the god damn Ruler dlc since it lets me attempt victory without that apparently nearly broken freeze nade. ;)

That said, increased AoE on the regular fire nades (bombs just become pod-covering inferno madness) has let me repeatedly and consistently apply fire to two to three enemies per ambushed pod during this entire campaign. Making a whole encounter per mission almost trivial for the squad is incredibly powerful in my book; faster progression through the level, safer pushes up the flanks, easier kills for your leveling non-msgts and so on.

A big plus is that the burning enemies usually do their confused double-move, letting your overwatch rangers finish them off during the next turn without any issues.

tl;dr More fire, larger aoe, fun times.
Shaenix
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Shaenix »

Dwarfling wrote:Grenades and Rockets do less damage the further they're away from the point of detonation, unless you get Tandem Warheads, which counters this mechanic. That would explain why you're getting 1 damage. I think it also happens when the explosion has to go around a solid object. I've never seen a "0 damage" message. If no message popped up and you just did no damage then assume scatter from a rocket, or buggy UI telling you it was going to hit (happens to me from time to time with the edges of a flamethrower's cone).
Sorry, my words were misleading. By saying "0 damage", I meant the rocket scattered and completely missed the target. No message popped up.
For the 1 damage part, like Dlareh has mentioned below, I don't think grenade damage dropoff cannot go below the lowest point. I want to know the reason I got those 1 damages so badly.
Dlareh wrote:The dropoff is calculated using probabilities that make it randomly decrease according to how far away it is from the center, but it's still within the range of 2-5 or 2-7 or whatever, as far as I know.
1 damage isn't possible short of armor/shield, unless my memory is completely failing me.
Status effects like burning on the next turn can give 1-3
I have a video of my rocketeer doing 1 damage with his rocket. Give me some time, I just need to find it.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Tuhalu »

Explosive damage falloff is a factor in addition to min/max damage. You actually can have 1 damage due to falloff. In short, explosive damage falloff can reduce the damage from a grenade or rocket down to 50% of the actual damage rolled (with a minimum of 1). So a rocket doing 2-7 damage that catches an enemy with the very edge of it's radius would actually do 1-3 damage.

A longer explanation of the algorithm follows...
  1. Calculate the weapon damage. This is a random number between the min and max values and inclusive of both.
  2. Calculate the falloff. Every explosion has a radius. What percentage of the radius is the target tile from the center of the hit?
  3. Compare that percentage (DistanceRatio) to the UnitDamageSteps array below to get the DamageRatio. The lowest DamageRatio you can get where the DistanceRatio you found exceeds the DistanceRatio in the array is your DamageRatio. If you exceed no numbers, then it's 1.
  4. Now take the weapon damage and multiple it by the DamageRatio. If it's lower than 1, make it 1. Call this minDamage.
  5. Now take a random number between 0 and WeaponDamage - minDamage + 1 (not inclusive of the top end). Call this DamageFalloff.
  6. Finally, the actual damage is WeaponDamage - DamageFalloff.

Code: Select all

+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.2, DamageRatio=1.0)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.5, DamageRatio=0.75)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.75, DamageRatio=0.5)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=1.5, DamageRatio=0.25)
; use slop on the top end to avoid rounding errors excluding tiles on the outer edges
Shaenix
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by Shaenix »

Tuhalu wrote:Explosive damage falloff is a factor in addition to min/max damage. You actually can have 1 damage due to falloff. In short, explosive damage falloff can reduce the damage from a grenade or rocket down to 50% of the actual damage rolled (with a minimum of 1). So a rocket doing 2-7 damage that catches an enemy with the very edge of it's radius would actually do 1-3 damage.

A longer explanation of the algorithm follows...
  1. Calculate the weapon damage. This is a random number between the min and max values and inclusive of both.
  2. Calculate the falloff. Every explosion has a radius. What percentage of the radius is the target tile from the center of the hit?
  3. Compare that percentage (DistanceRatio) to the UnitDamageSteps array below to get the DamageRatio. The lowest DamageRatio you can get where the DistanceRatio you found exceeds the DistanceRatio in the array is your DamageRatio. If you exceed no numbers, then it's 1.
  4. Now take the weapon damage and multiple it by the DamageRatio. If it's lower than 1, make it 1. Call this minDamage.
  5. Now take a random number between 0 and WeaponDamage - minDamage + 1 (not inclusive of the top end). Call this DamageFalloff.
  6. Finally, the actual damage is WeaponDamage - DamageFalloff.

Code: Select all

+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.2, DamageRatio=1.0)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.5, DamageRatio=0.75)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.75, DamageRatio=0.5)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=1.5, DamageRatio=0.25)
; use slop on the top end to avoid rounding errors excluding tiles on the outer edges
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I've learnt something new.

Dlareh wrote: 1 damage isn't possible short of armor/shield, unless my memory is completely failing me.
WanWhiteWolf wrote: You have to keep an eye on the armor. Grenades do not ignore armor without training (there is a perk that adds armor pierce + extra shred; missing the name now). So 2 HP/1 Armor enemy is not a guaranteed kill for a standard grenade. I never had a single point of damage on a non-armored enemy; but there might be some mechanics that I do not know about.
Here is a clip of my rocket almost hit the target dead center but still doing 1 dmg.

In LW1, I use rocket as an emergency backup for those "Oh crap" situations.
In LW2, rocket sometimes just causes more crap. I wish they would be more reliable.
User avatar
WanWhiteWolf
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 10:09 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

Shaenix wrote:
Tuhalu wrote:Explosive damage falloff is a factor in addition to min/max damage. You actually can have 1 damage due to falloff. In short, explosive damage falloff can reduce the damage from a grenade or rocket down to 50% of the actual damage rolled (with a minimum of 1). So a rocket doing 2-7 damage that catches an enemy with the very edge of it's radius would actually do 1-3 damage.

A longer explanation of the algorithm follows...
  1. Calculate the weapon damage. This is a random number between the min and max values and inclusive of both.
  2. Calculate the falloff. Every explosion has a radius. What percentage of the radius is the target tile from the center of the hit?
  3. Compare that percentage (DistanceRatio) to the UnitDamageSteps array below to get the DamageRatio. The lowest DamageRatio you can get where the DistanceRatio you found exceeds the DistanceRatio in the array is your DamageRatio. If you exceed no numbers, then it's 1.
  4. Now take the weapon damage and multiple it by the DamageRatio. If it's lower than 1, make it 1. Call this minDamage.
  5. Now take a random number between 0 and WeaponDamage - minDamage + 1 (not inclusive of the top end). Call this DamageFalloff.
  6. Finally, the actual damage is WeaponDamage - DamageFalloff.

Code: Select all

+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.2, DamageRatio=1.0)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.5, DamageRatio=0.75)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=0.75, DamageRatio=0.5)
+UnitDamageSteps=(DistanceRatio=1.5, DamageRatio=0.25)
; use slop on the top end to avoid rounding errors excluding tiles on the outer edges
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I've learnt something new.

Dlareh wrote: 1 damage isn't possible short of armor/shield, unless my memory is completely failing me.
WanWhiteWolf wrote: You have to keep an eye on the armor. Grenades do not ignore armor without training (there is a perk that adds armor pierce + extra shred; missing the name now). So 2 HP/1 Armor enemy is not a guaranteed kill for a standard grenade. I never had a single point of damage on a non-armored enemy; but there might be some mechanics that I do not know about.
Here is a clip of my rocket almost hit the target dead center but still doing 1 dmg.

In LW1, I use rocket as an emergency backup for those "Oh crap" situations.
In LW2, rocket sometimes just causes more crap. I wish they would be more reliable.
That looks horrible. Seems rockets are even worst than I knew.

I am not sure how many people go Racketeer spec on a Technical. For me flame build is way more powerful. I think LW2 rocketeers are pretty bad because:
- They destroy the loot; and that's your main economy
- They do low damage and their are heavily unreliable
- They they don't have shreder rocket - that they used to; concussion rocket is ....well...I am considering sometimes rocketing my own people with it.
- Their MSGT perk is basically worth of a good grenade but without doing any damage

There is are some nice combo with rocketeer and serial at MSGT but serial is getting nerfed so that won't work in the future. Also rocketeers are slow (as in, if you move and shoot your rocket can hit basically anything in visual range), which makes them not viable for timed missions (which is most of the LW2 missions). For non-timed missions you don't want to kill with explosives; you need the corpses. So no real spots there either.

I also made a few of them but decided they are pretty weak. Once I respected them in AWG into flamers, they become monsters. 1-2 or 2 became Heaven advisers - which are pretty good since even without gear, they can carry the randevous with a rocket on faceless pod and flamers on the Advent.

I think the LW team doesn't like the "explosives" idea since it makes the game easy. As in - you destroy the cover; you shoot with the people who can; done. It doesn't take that much decision making and most of the outcome is RNG based (missing those high % shots) rather than skill based. I think they had a similar approach on LW1 at some point.

I guess they overextended a bit - or at lest this is how I see things - because most explosives are pretty useless and nobody bothers with them. Fire grenade slipped through the cracks but that's about it. Hence...most people go for PSI early since those guys don't care about cover.
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Questions about post patch 1.3 Grenadier

Post by LordYanaek »

I don't use Grenadiers that much because they increase Infiltration time (same for Gunners) but i've been experimenting with some mixed trees that work nicely (they are not MSgt yet but here is my plan).
  • "Grenade Sniper" Needle Grenades→Center Mass→Boosted Cores/Formidable→Tandem Warheads→Chain Shot→Salvo→Full Kit. The idea is to use Fire Grenades to remove 1-2 priority targets from the field and kill the rest with the Rifle (i have 2 of those with good aim). Salvo allows me to use the grenade then shoot (or use Command for my Quick Study Grenadier officer). They also equip EXO armor in priority so i have a non loot destroying Shredder Gun when i need to remove several targets.
  • "Control and Shoot" Rapid Deployment→Center Mass→Formidable→Dense Smoke→Sting Grenades→Volatile Mix→Full Kit. Here i'm ready to launch a Flashbang (later Sting) or smoke grenade and then shoot stuff. No Chain Shot as it competes with Sting of course. I take Center Mass as this guy also have good base Aim and i want to be able to kill stuff rather than just disorient them and sit there.
I stopped caring about Sapper in 1.2 and now i destroy cover with Gunners or Rocketeers so i didn't even try the left tree.
Shaenix wrote: Here is a clip of my rocket almost hit the target dead center but still doing 1 dmg.

In LW1, I use rocket as an emergency backup for those "Oh crap" situations.
In LW2, rocket sometimes just causes more crap. I wish they would be more reliable.
Just to be sure, you don't have the mod causing cover to reduce damage? It could explain those 1 damage if the enemy have cover from the tile where the rocket lands.
The other explanation would be a dodge. I really think guaranteed hits shouldn't be dodged but seeing as relays can "dodge" shots when Graze Band is active, i wouldn't be surprised if you could also dodge grenades/rockets. It would even be far less stupid.

I rarely used rockets in LW1 as i found them utterly unreliable. I've started to use them in my current LW2 campaign and i think they are quite useful but they are not an "oh crap" button. They need to be used carefully and planned for.
Post Reply