XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: (11/7/17 UPDATE: See announcement thread)

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JackDT
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by JackDT »

LordYanaek wrote: It will probably just take time, maybe long enough for the original sales to "cool down". The cynic within me tells me that if 2K have commissioned an update, they probably also gave instruction regarding when the update should be released, but that's OK. I plan to play WotC as is first anyway and can still try new strategies in a LW2 1.5 campaign without WotC if it takes too long :P
The thing that sucks is that Pavonis needs to work on games they can pay rent with. They *could* have done a Patreon for Long War 2 and probably got some decent support to justify their continued time on it. But they can't do that because they were paid for Long War 2 in the past. So now it's all in 2k's hands whether they are cutting them checks or not.

(Also the Long War team might just want to focus on their upcoming game that they can actually sell! But certainly some steady revenue from their mod work would help justify it...)
aureon
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by aureon »

JackDT wrote:
LordYanaek wrote: It will probably just take time, maybe long enough for the original sales to "cool down". The cynic within me tells me that if 2K have commissioned an update, they probably also gave instruction regarding when the update should be released, but that's OK. I plan to play WotC as is first anyway and can still try new strategies in a LW2 1.5 campaign without WotC if it takes too long :P
The thing that sucks is that Pavonis needs to work on games they can pay rent with. They *could* have done a Patreon for Long War 2 and probably got some decent support to justify their continued time on it. But they can't do that because they were paid for Long War 2 in the past. So now it's all in 2k's hands whether they are cutting them checks or not.

(Also the Long War team might just want to focus on their upcoming game that they can actually sell! But certainly some steady revenue from their mod work would help justify it...)
They certainly could, if Firaxis alllows it. I'd also guess they'd commission an update 3-6 months down the line, to spike sales again.
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8wayz
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by 8wayz »

Well, it makes sense that a new update for the game will be released around the time of the Winter sales on Steam (December/January).

Nothing wrong with that and more people would be inclined to get the expansion on a sale.

That said, I can see a lot that can be done with the new SITREP system, making a lot of interesting sub-mission types without heavy coding. I just hope that it will be easy to use for modders.

The new perk tree where you can buy any skill, including the opposite class one, is great for the player but I am not sure how the Pavonis team will make use of it.
LordYanaek
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by LordYanaek »

So i just started XCOM2 with WotC installed (using the regular launcher, i expect the alternate launcher will have to be updated) and you now have 2 buttons at the bottom, one to play XCOM2 and another to play WotC. Both display the same list of mods but some (most currently) are market with a warning sign under WotC and not under XCOM2.

So it looks like it's 2 different non conflicting applications and you can still start a vanilla XCOM2 game even with WotC installed in order to play LW2 :)
MyMy
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by MyMy »

I have registered to ask the developer of LW2 - why is it so hard to announce something about LW2 + expansion? Something like 'not coming within X months' would satisfy me for sure. Or some status updated - if it's not negotiated and may not come, ever, that would be useful to know as well. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I feel it's your duty or something. Just... please?
dethraker
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by dethraker »

That's the price you pay to become a developer instead of a mod group. Pavonis isn't a modding group anymore, they are paid for by 2K and are subject to all the strings that come along with that, whether they like it or not. I'm sure, if they are working on something, that they are chomping at the bit to announce it and be more open with the community. This, sadly, is much of what has turned me off about Long War 2 and even XCom 2 because of it. It's marketed as a mod, but the team working on it aren't allowed to interact with the community on the same level as a group of modders.

Lets just hope that if they are working on something that they get the strings removed sooner than later so we can be aware of it. I'm sure if they have something planned it will be fun, but I still very much look forward to when they drop the modding act and finally get to go full steam on Terra Invicta.
Nicklopez2005@gmail.com
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Nicklopez2005@gmail.com »

As unfortunate as it is that they arent able to interact with the community on these sort of things. I'm more than okay with it, because now they're being paid for their hard work... if that means they can't keep me in the loop the moment I want to know.... I'm just glad that Pavonis has been able to get rewarded for their hard work on Long War.
orion_winterfire
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by orion_winterfire »

dethraker wrote:It's marketed as a mod, but the team working on it aren't allowed to interact with the community on the same level as a group of modders.
That may be true, but as far as developers go, pavonis has been the coolest, most communicative, and most personable group I've run into . . . And I'm old lol
sirburton
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by sirburton »

dethraker wrote:That's the price you pay to become a developer instead of a mod group. Pavonis isn't a modding group anymore, they are paid for by 2K and are subject to all the strings that come along with that, whether they like it or not. I'm sure, if they are working on something, that they are chomping at the bit to announce it and be more open with the community. This, sadly, is much of what has turned me off about Long War 2 and even XCom 2 because of it. It's marketed as a mod, but the team working on it aren't allowed to interact with the community on the same level as a group of modders.

Lets just hope that if they are working on something that they get the strings removed sooner than later so we can be aware of it. I'm sure if they have something planned it will be fun, but I still very much look forward to when they drop the modding act and finally get to go full steam on Terra Invicta.
sorry but what does this mean? Have they been 'hired' by 2k so they won't work on a LW2 versione of wotc ?
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8wayz
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by 8wayz »

It means that Long War 2 was commissioned and paid for by 2K in the first place. So if there is anything new on the horizon for Long War 2, it is 2K that will have to decide when and what will be announced and Pavonis will have to play ball.

They are a sub-developer on XCOM 2, but on the mod side.
Phaseless
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Phaseless »

Pretty sure they will wait a bit and sell the Expansion and once interest slows down, they will announce Long war Support. Anything else would be uneconomic. Not many People more will buy the Expansion right now just because Long war Support was announced, but once interested People have forgotten the buzz, they will be reminded by the News of Support. And also others who in the meantime have gotten a taste for this Kind of games.

But hopefully, development starts earlier than announcement date. The longer People have to wait for the mod, the harder the sell.
sirburton
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by sirburton »

Phaseless wrote:But hopefully, development starts earlier than announcement date. The longer People have to wait for the mod, the harder the sell.
Exactly. I hope 2k acknowledges this. I'm quite sure there's lot of people like me who isn't buying the expansion because i'm too lw2-addicted to abandon it.
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johnnylump
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by johnnylump »

So the way things worked before Long War 2 was announced was that there was a period in which we were negotiating a contract with 2K to make the mod, and us discussing it publicly at that point would have created unrealizable expectations and almost certainly displeased our client, potentially enough for them to determine we were unreliable and nix the project. And there wasn't any guarantee LW2 would have happened if we couldn't agree on a contract, so announcements at that point were premature anyway.

Once the contract was signed, there was another period last year in which we were working on the game but 2K indicated they would control the announcements over it. And that's fine, for several reasons: 1) It was a condition for us getting paid; 2) They wanted to see what we could do and make sure it was worth promoting; and 3) They have a skilled marketing and promotions team, while our small team's time was best spent on making the mods. Their announce and rollout of LW2 built a good bit of hype -- e.g. PC Gamer gave Long War 2 a two-page spread (news coverage, not a paid ad), which I understand is pretty unusual for something billed as a mod. So in terms of reaching an audience and keeping people playing XCOM 2, they did far better than we could have on our own.

On our end, it boils down to this is our job now and no longer a hobby, and getting paid to make games comes with some conditions, including controlling the timing over what we talk about. There is a loss there -- because of confidentiality restrictions and less free time, we can't engage with the players as freely as we did in the hobbyist, no-deadline days of LW1, and there were probably some good ideas for XCOM 2 mods that weren't realized as a result. But the work is a lot of fun and will continue to be as long as you guys keep enjoying what we put out.

(I'll add I never expected screwing around with EU's inis back in late 2012 would have led me to having to learn worker's comp laws and what a Rule 504 capital raise entails nearly five years later)

We're also at last working on Terra Invicta in earnest and I REALLY want to talk about it to everybody all the time, but at the same time I'm watching how other companies promote their games and I know it's too soon. We've got a lot of architecture in place and an art director on board, and now we want to stand up some features internally and try them out and make sure they're fun and feasible. I don't want to oversell things that are in the design that may not make it in the final game, as this line of work takes a lot of time and a fair bit of money to get a product to market. I also don't want to cause frustration by generating a lot of interest and then going silent for twenty months while we actually make it. I've watched Paradox's style of promotion, with dev diaries well in advance of release, as well as Firaxis', waiting until the game is almost done before announcing it when they are confident about a release date -- building a lot of hype quickly. I can see advantages in both, and once things are further along we'll decide which style we want to emulate (assuming it isn't dictated to us by someone else.)

Anyway, sorry there's still nothing to say on the main topic of this thread.
sirburton
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by sirburton »

johnnylump wrote:So the way things worked before Long War 2 was announced was that there was a period in which we were negotiating a contract with 2K to make the mod, and us discussing it publicly at that point would have created unrealizable expectations and almost certainly displeased our client, potentially enough for them to determine we were unreliable and nix the project. And there wasn't any guarantee LW2 would have happened if we couldn't agree on a contract, so announcements at that point were premature anyway.

Once the contract was signed, there was another period last year in which we were working on the game but 2K indicated they would control the announcements over it. And that's fine, for several reasons: 1) It was a condition for us getting paid; 2) They wanted to see what we could do and make sure it was worth promoting; and 3) They have a skilled marketing and promotions team, while our small team's time was best spent on making the mods. Their announce and rollout of LW2 built a good bit of hype -- e.g. PC Gamer gave Long War 2 a two-page spread (news coverage, not a paid ad), which I understand is pretty unusual for something billed as a mod. So in terms of reaching an audience and keeping people playing XCOM 2, they did far better than we could have on our own.

On our end, it boils down to this is our job now and no longer a hobby, and getting paid to make games comes with some conditions, including controlling the timing over what we talk about. There is a loss there -- because of confidentiality restrictions and less free time, we can't engage with the players as freely as we did in the hobbyist, no-deadline days of LW1, and there were probably some good ideas for XCOM 2 mods that weren't realized as a result. But the work is a lot of fun and will continue to be as long as you guys keep enjoying what we put out.

(I'll add I never expected screwing around with EU's inis back in late 2012 would have led me to having to learn worker's comp laws and what a Rule 504 capital raise entails nearly five years later)

We're also at last working on Terra Invicta in earnest and I REALLY want to talk about it to everybody all the time, but at the same time I'm watching how other companies promote their games and I know it's too soon. We've got a lot of architecture in place and an art director on board, and now we want to stand up some features internally and try them out and make sure they're fun and feasible. I don't want to oversell things that are in the design that may not make it in the final game, as this line of work takes a lot of time and a fair bit of money to get a product to market. I also don't want to cause frustration by generating a lot of interest and then going silent for twenty months while we actually make it. I've watched Paradox's style of promotion, with dev diaries well in advance of release, as well as Firaxis', waiting until the game is almost done before announcing it when they are confident about a release date -- building a lot of hype quickly. I can see advantages in both, and once things are further along we'll decide which style we want to emulate (assuming it isn't dictated to us by someone else.)

Anyway, sorry there's still nothing to say on the main topic of this thread.
I've read your answer 4-5 times and sadly it looks like that the phrase "we're working on lw2 for wotc" is not there > _ <
Personally, I do repeat, I don't think i'll buy WotC until an updated lw2 is released.
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nmkaplan
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by nmkaplan »

johnnylump wrote:Anyway, sorry there's still nothing to say on the main topic of this thread.
What a fantastic post, JL. I always enjoy learning about what goes on behind the scenes in creating things that I enjoy, especially the "business" end, since I feel like business decisions sometimes feel counterintuitive to people like me who don't run businesses or form relationships like you did with 2K.

I've been very curious about one thing: When you negotiated your contract for LW2 with 2K, did you anticipate putting resources into post-release development and balance? You've done almost 9 months of work to hone and change LW2 to be significantly different (and better!) than it was at release. Is that something you accounted for doing when you negotiated your contract?
sarge945
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by sarge945 »

I want to see Long War 2 for WotC ASAP. I don't care how many rookies get killed
WarChicken
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by WarChicken »

sarge945 wrote:I want to see Long War 2 for WotC ASAP. I don't care how many rookies get killed
I don't want it ASAP, and you and me both are not in a position to demand anything.
But it would be nice to know IF it's going to be ported to WotC or not. 'Cos even if it takes a year of time, there is something to look forward and come back to.
So yes, while it is nice to read about your work and how this is your job now @johnnylump - is it part of your job to port LW2 to WotC or not or aren't you allowed to tell?
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johnnylump
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by johnnylump »

nmkaplan wrote:
johnnylump wrote:Anyway, sorry there's still nothing to say on the main topic of this thread.
What a fantastic post, JL. I always enjoy learning about what goes on behind the scenes in creating things that I enjoy, especially the "business" end, since I feel like business decisions sometimes feel counterintuitive to people like me who don't run businesses or form relationships like you did with 2K.

I've been very curious about one thing: When you negotiated your contract for LW2 with 2K, did you anticipate putting resources into post-release development and balance? You've done almost 9 months of work to hone and change LW2 to be significantly different (and better!) than it was at release. Is that something you accounted for doing when you negotiated your contract?
I was a journalism major back in the day so I'm learning the business stuff too. Our contract specified we fix any major problems discovered post-launch, but our balancing work and bits of new stuff has been of our own volition.
pingpong
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by pingpong »

Hi JL

I'm glad to learn that LW 2 remains a labour of love for you and the team! I've been a fan of your work since the early days of LW and eagerly look forward to seeing more stuff from you and Amineri et al in the future! XCOM would never have been the same without your contributions. Thank you for giving me (and many others) so many hours of joy (and heartache) with these expansions -- I truly appreciate all of your hard work and dedication -- thanks!
dethraker
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by dethraker »

WarChicken wrote:So yes, while it is nice to read about your work and how this is your job now @johnnylump - is it part of your job to port LW2 to WotC or not or aren't you allowed to tell?
If by contract they're not allowed to tell then he has to omit anything from conversation that might give hints toward that information, so we won't know anything until they either announce something or they move on to Terra Invicta full steam.
johnnylump wrote:So the way things worked before Long War 2 was announced...Anyway, sorry there's still nothing to say on the main topic of this thread.
I understand all of that honestly and am not angry with Pavonis, you guys are trying to make a career, I have always been completely against the entire setup though considering it is marketed as a mod when in reality it is not. Sure it's free, but it's more similar to free dlc than a mod in terms of how everything was conducted. I'm thrilled for you and your team and even hope that after your time with 2K they decide to fund Terra Invicta as one of their new titles, I just don't like the way they treated everything.

So excited to hear about progress on Terra Invicta and I honestly can't wait to see what you guys can do with game development but also understand the appeal of not releasing too much too soon. I hope you find a good middle ground between the 2K/Firaxis model and the Paradox model but understand how fans can easily overhype something and make the final product seem somehow less than what others thought it might be. No matter what there's gonna be someone disappointed, I'm fairly certain that Pavonis has a solid enough following to sustain as long as the product doesn't feel incomplete though.

Ramble ramble, thanks for taking the time to comment on this! Can you answer this, "Is Pavonis still under any sort of NDA for 2K in regards to XCom 2 any longer?"
Phaseless
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Phaseless »

@johnnylump
Thanks for the Long and very informative Reply.
I agree with others that this reads like there's nothing going on dev wise with Long war Support for wotc, but that was to be expected all along ever since the original post. Personally I'm not in a hurry because I got enough to chew with the original Long war 2 mod.

Interesting question about dev diaries vs. promoting when you almost got a product.

I think there are many Things to consider which will lead you to your personal best way of doing it.
For one, dev diaries take time and resources I imagine. You might want to have community staff like Obsidian have who manage social media and make the Connection between dev News, staff and social media. You either spend Money for staff or time, if devs do it themselves. Can you afford that?

The other question is, is development fast paced enough to Warrant regular updates. If you got a small Team you might not get a lot of work done in one week. Is it worth the effort to take time away from development to inform the People of recent Progress? (no offense, but I think it's natural that bigger Teams will have more Progress to Report than smaller ones, on average)

On the other Hand, you like being in contact with your audience, being authentic, and you probably rely to a relatively large degree on it since that's the way smaller businesses gain traction. So despite some reasons arguing against dev diaries, maybe that's still an important Thing to do in your Situation.

I do want to remind everyone of mojang's scrolls though. It was a pretty brilliant online Card game which ultimately died down because they didn't make enough Money to Warrant running the Servers. The Problem seemed to be too Little Promotion.

So you guys probably too have not too much Money to spend on Promotion. With that being the case, dev diaries would be a great way to Keep People interested and to make sure your product stays relevant in people's minds. I believe dev diaries will garner more Attention, over time, than a single Promotion at the end of development ever could. People will anticipate your game and take note.

I myself am not up to date but maybe take a look how xenonauts 2 is handled. They release early Alpha builds for People to test. And they Keep People informed on Progress they make in their Forums. That's the least you could do IMO, Video updates like Obsidian do them would be luxurious.
pingpong
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by pingpong »

Phaseless wrote:I agree with others that this reads like there's nothing going on dev wise with Long war Support for wotc
With due respect, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion ...

From my reading of JL's post, he's saying that he is not in a position to say anything on this specific topic. In the past, he has been in a similar situation when PI was negotiating a contract with 2K and when they were actually working on LW 2. One interpretation of this could be construed that their present silence is due to similar circumstances.

Apart from the statement that they are "working on Terra Invicta in earnest", I can't see any reference that they are not also working on LW 2 update as well.

I'm not saying that I'm 100% sure PI will update LW 2 for WOTC, but I'm also saying that JL's post has NOT ruled it out as you have implied. My hopeful interpretation of his non-committal tone is that he is trying to calm the masses without breaking any NDA.

Just my 2 cents
Phaseless
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Phaseless »

I'm pretty certain an update for wotc is rather a question of when, not of "if".
I just could imagine pretty well that they want to Focus on their own game and let wotc run it's Course for the time being, then maybe announce working on Long war Support in a year or a half.

But I'd be thrilled if they were already working on it.
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8wayz
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by 8wayz »

Unless you haven't made notice of it, 2K's strategy is actually great this time around compared to Xcom 1.

They commission a great mod that has devoted followers and make it so it comes out about an year after the original game and just after the Steam winter sale. Then 6 months later, while everyone is playing a lot of Long War 2, they announce a new expansion. About 8 months after the launch of Long War comes a huge expansion.

And a day or two before the official launch of the expansion comes a great patch for Long War 2. Seems like they want to make sure that both players who can afford the new expansions and those who would like to wait are going to be playing Xcom2.

I am expecting a version of Long War 2 for War of the Chosen sometime in February next year, 6 months from now. They will probably also receive some support from Firaxis to make everything work smooth on the technical side.
Thatsxcombaby
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Re: XCOM 2 expansion + Long War 2: Nothing to announce

Post by Thatsxcombaby »

I checked out the Steam Workshop and I'm seeing a decent number of mods already updated to support War of the Chosen! Maybe this is a good sign that it won't be that difficult for the Long War 2 team to make it compatible with WoTC.......atleast I hope anyways.
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