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Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:30 am
by Larknok1
As I understand it, in 1.5 the XP from kills is being limited to the mission cap, pre-reinforcements.
Even with this change, I'm afraid people (including myself) will continue to Reinforcement Farm, seeing as it maintains two benefits:
1) Intel / Alloys / Elerium from Collector / Scavenger perks
2) Easy Skullmining
Please, LW2 devs, disable these for reinforcements in 1.5 as well. Alternatively, please increase the distance reinforcement pods spawn from the approximate locus of your squad, seeing as a more distantly spawning pod is much more dangerous. This would also help make Convoy Defense missions much more challenging (they're ridiculously easy at the moment.)
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:50 am
by tracktwo
I can't comment on the balance aspect, but I can say that both supply convoy and defend were bugged in 1.3 and 1.4, causing the wrong reinforcements to drop and also causing them to drop far closer to your squad than intended. In 1.5 they will drop father away, but not necessarily out of vision.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:27 am
by Larknok1
I'm actually referring to farming the reinforcements on typical GOps, after your squad has wiped all the mission's original enemies, and before you extract. In 1.4 you have every reason to kill as many as you can until you get a reinforcement you can't fully wipe in one turn.
My main point is that in 1.5, you'll still have a positive reason to do so, although it will be somewhat less: free intel points from collector / easier and safer Skullmining.
In some cases, I'm pulling an extra 10-20 intel per mission by simply farming 30-40 alien reinfs with collector in 1.4 (and this should continue in 1.5 unless it's fixed.)
---
As for haven defense / supply convoys: the haven defense reinfs were arguably the only scary ones, due to them being able to spawn away from you, and how strong they were. With their nerfs, I'm sure full retals will still be very scary, but somewhat less so. I sure hope the distance spawning you're describing will make convoy defense somewhat riskier, as its the easiest mission type at the moment.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:59 am
by Franzy
This can be easily fixed by changing Collector and Scavenger to...
...Gain 1-3 intel every time you pick up a timed loot.
...Gain 0-2 alloy and 0-2 elerium every time you pick up a timed loot.
Skullmining is not problem here, since you can only do it once a mission.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:04 pm
by johnnylump
Collector and Scavenger should be capped at 10 intel/supplies collected per mission since 1.3. If that's not working, let us know.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:22 pm
by RapidFire
I suppose I will be in the minority here, but I am not a fan of artificial caps, and that includes artificial experience-earned caps. If the guys killed the troops they should get the experience.
This could be remedied by having a incrementally increasing number of troops or troop power in the pods as a low-work "fix." If other options are on the table, after a large number of turns, have a whole division move into the map from one of the edges, particularly if the region already has a high vigilance from ADVENT. This would simulate them sending organized reinforcements in mass to combat a new threat rather than patchwork reinforcements.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:49 pm
by Larknok1
Franzy wrote:This can be easily fixed by changing Collector and Scavenger to...
...Gain 1-3 intel every time you pick up a timed loot.
...Gain 0-2 alloy and 0-2 elerium every time you pick up a timed loot.
Skullmining is not problem here, since you can only do it once a mission.
The problem is that skull mining should be an act of juggling various enemies. It's especially dangerous your first time on Codex spawn. Reinfs makes this ridiculously predictable and easy to deal with and makes skull mining a risk free source of ~10 Intel per mission.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:51 pm
by Larknok1
johnnylump wrote:Collector and Scavenger should be capped at 10 intel/supplies collected per mission since 1.3. If that's not working, let us know.
I think it's currently functioning as intended, and capped at 10. All the same, it's nearly impossible to kill ~30 non-advent aliens on most missions to reach the full 10 Intel without abusing reinfs.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:01 am
by LordYanaek
I have an easy fix to suggest : If you don't like RNF farming, don't do it
Seriously, it's not required to win and quickly becomes boring for limited benefit. I sometimes "farm" 1 wave on normal missions, usually 2-3 on smash 'n grab (this mission is perfect for farming RNFs as they drop each turn) but more than that is just tedious and sometimes i simply don't want to wait.
1. I think Collector is best used on officers leading heavy fighting squads such as ambush squads. Those usually rely heavily on snipers who won't benefit from Lead by Example and gain a lot from Collector. Scavenger is a late game perk and for me the largest effect is on mission rewards. It's possible this can be abused, if so it can be solved by making sure RNFs enemies don't trigger those perks (similar to how they won't give XP) but it might require more coding than is worth.
2. Skullmining gives specialists an ability to remove a high HP advent target from the field in a single attack even with crappy aim and a low damage SMG. Keeping it for RNFs seems like a waste of a potentially very powerful ability.
3. You might add easy (or at least risk-free) MEC capture for your Havens using Full Override on RNF MECs but again, is it really such an issue, Full Override can turn the tide of a battle so waiting for RNFs to use it is a wast of a very strong ability.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:24 pm
by 8wayz
I am not sure 10 alloys and intel for an extra 15-30 real-life minutes per mission is worth it. If you are so inclined to do so, then the mod will rightfully merit its name Long War.
And you need to also bring an officer having those perks. I do not think there will be a lot of players wanting or having the patience and desire to set up all of this.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:28 am
by Larknok1
8wayz wrote:I am not sure 10 alloys and intel for an extra 15-30 real-life minutes per mission is worth it. If you are so inclined to do so, then the mod will rightfully merit its name Long War.
And you need to also bring an officer having those perks. I do not think there will be a lot of players wanting or having the patience and desire to set up all of this.
It's literally free resources that you *could* take, that is an annoying, grinding chore to take. This is thereby a game design problem. I.e. it's violating a fundamental principle: the best strategy should always be fun.
Otherwise, I'm happy to report, I'm very much enjoying LW2 now (and I was one of the early complainers pre 1.3.)
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:26 am
by wobuffet
Larknok1 wrote:It's literally free resources that you *could* take, that is an annoying, grinding chore to take. This is thereby a game design problem. I.e. it's violating a fundamental principle: the best strategy should always be fun.
Exactly this!
Just cap Collector and Scavenger according to the originally scheduled number of enemies along with kill XP.
Also, a fair amount of this will be solved when reinforcement locations are fixed in 1.5 to not always drop right on top of you.
Lastly, skullmining: instead of yielding a flat 10 Intel if successful, what if it yielded
Code: Select all
Intel from skullmining = 2 * (minimum scheduled number of enemies – number of enemies already killed),
capped at a minimum of 2 and a max of 15?
So on a Very Light (
10–12 enemies) mission, an early Skullmine (fewer than 2 enemies already killed) yields 15 Intel.
If you've killed 4 enemies before you Skullmine, you get 12 Intel. (2 * [10–4] = 12)
If you've killed 6 enemies already, Skullmine gives 8 Intel. (2 * [10–6] = 8)
If you've already killed 9 or more enemies, Skullmine gives only 2 Intel. (2 * [10–9] = 2)
Going for the skullmine earlier obviously involves greater danger, so why not tie it to greater rewards?
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:06 pm
by Steve-O
RapidFire wrote:I suppose I will be in the minority here, but I am not a fan of artificial caps, and that includes artificial experience-earned caps. If the guys killed the troops they should get the experience.
I agree that I'm not fond of artificial caps as a way of forcing the player to move on. The XP cap being placed in 1.5, I can understand and support, but I wouldn't want Skulljacking to magically stop working just because the soldier I'm trying to 'jack was a reinforcement rather than part of the original map force.
wobuffet wrote:Larknok1 wrote:It's literally free resources that you *could* take, that is an annoying, grinding chore to take. This is thereby a game design problem. I.e. it's violating a fundamental principle: the best strategy should always be fun.
Exactly this!
Just cap Collector and Scavenger according to the originally scheduled number of enemies along with kill XP.
I'm guessing you guys missed the part where JL himself commented in this thread to say that these resources are capped at 10 per mission, RNFs or no RNFs, since 1.3?
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:01 am
by wobuffet
Steve-O wrote:I'm guessing you guys missed the part where JL himself commented in this thread to say that these resources are capped at 10 per mission, RNFs or no RNFs, since 1.3?
Nope, did not miss that. Getting 10 intel requires a lot of kills when the rate is 0.33 intel per non-human enemy.
Steve-O wrote:I wouldn't want Skulljacking to magically stop working just because the soldier I'm trying to 'jack was a reinforcement rather than part of the original map force.
Nobody's saying Skulljacking should change. We're talking about Skullmining (which you can do to non-Officer ADVENT and only yields Intel) and how to make worthwhile to use it before reinforcements arrive (in which case it's trivially easy to do if you've cleared the map).
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:21 am
by SirensCry
It's literally free resources that you *could* take, that is an annoying, grinding chore to take. This is thereby a game design problem. I.e. it's violating a fundamental principle: the best strategy should always be fun.
That whole sentence is a fallacy.
I dont want to come out as blunt, but as many already stated, this is becoming a serious trend.
If there is the chance to do something illegal/cheesy not contemplated originally in the design, nobody is forced to act on it. Its faulty reasoning blaming the game for something YOU cant help but abuse.
Your reasoning is " This Game - which i play alone and have no competition but my own goals - allows me to cheat my way in a boring fashion, solve it so i dont get tempted, ergo, not get bored. "
It is really ludicrous.
Sirens.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:08 pm
by 8wayz
@Larknok1
Those resources are not free. For the same time you are farming one mission you can easily finish another mission in 30 minutes real time.
On the second mission you can get more loot and experience than from farming 5 to 10 reinforcement pods.
It is a question whether you value more ingame time or real life time.
However, in no shape or form farming reinforcements is the optimal strategy. Your main resource is soldiers and their experience - the final mission can be finished even with ballistic weapons. As you get no expieriense from killing reinforcements, in my humble opinion it can not be called an optimal strategy.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:59 pm
by Psieye
Ah, the familiar bogeyman: the hypothetical hyper-optimal player. Has infinite playtime and patience to min/max the tiniest advantage. It is a game designer's choice on how much to court this bogeyman.
I'd say PI has a reasonable approach to suppress grinding. Completely negating reinforcement grinding would introduce bizzare collateral damage (complexity that players need to know is a cost).
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:52 pm
by wobuffet
Psieye wrote:Completely negating reinforcement grinding would introduce bizzare collateral damage (complexity that players need to know is a cost).
What "bizarre collateral damage" is there with my proposal above (quoted for your convenience below)?
wobuffet wrote:Larknok1 wrote:It's literally free resources that you *could* take, that is an annoying, grinding chore to take. This is thereby a game design problem. I.e. it's violating a fundamental principle: the best strategy should always be fun.
Exactly this!
Just cap Collector and Scavenger according to the originally scheduled number of enemies along with kill XP.
Also, a fair amount of this will be solved when reinforcement locations are fixed in 1.5 to not always drop right on top of you.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:06 am
by SirensCry
Lol
Whats the difference between:
a) Pressing "Y" continuosly for 10 minutes after finishing the mission.
b) Console command what you wish by executing a).
10 minutes.
Sirens.
Re: Reinforcement Farming
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:36 pm
by Exquisitor
So after reading this thread I had to try some RNF farming just to see what it's all about. I'm still in ballistics and have tried it on both veteran and commander. It's fun at first and the game of course is to see how many Advent you can kill before you need to bug out. In the scheme of things it doesn't seem like a lot of experience, maybe your troopers can gain an extra level after a 2-4 missions with RNF farming occurring at the end of the mission. My best mission was 42 dead Advent (minus 8 for the mission, so really 34) with 6 troopers using ballistics and 37 dead (minus 9, so 28) with 5 troopers. These were done in April. I'm sure I'll get more with better weapons, but the Advent forces increase in durability as well.
Sentinel on OW specialist is one of the best RNF farming builds. Ranger does pretty well on the resistance turn, but only if you have some expanded magazines.
Although it is an abuse, I don't think it's game breaking to farm RNF because the advancement wasn't that fast for me, it's boring as hell, and the exp gain is really in completing the mission objectives.