Painful Skill Tree Changes

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whitelion1284
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Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by whitelion1284 »

I just upgraded from 1.2 to 1.4 and have been looking through many of the changes made to the various skill trees. All I have to say is:

OUCH!

Holy crap! Talk about some hard choices! Walk Fire vs Ever Vigilant! Low Profile vs Bladestorm! Sentinel vs Revival Protocol! Those are brutal decisions to make. And then restricting Conceal on the Shinobi until master sergeant! Ay yi yi! That dramatically reduces the value of the shinobi. Getting that soldier revealed now annihilates the ability to gather stealth intelligence.

I tell ya, I love Long War. I can't play XCOM without it. But sometimes it REALLY hurts.
Thrair
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Thrair »

Yeah. Stealthnobi got hit with some hefty nerfs. But 1.2 gameplay tended to be "spam as many stealth ops as possible". Another really tough one for me is Cutthroat vs Hard Target. That one hits me right in the feels every time I have to make the call.


Plus side is you ought to check out bladenobis, overall. Coup de Grace got changed from a Psuedo-Kubikiri to a massive stat ball to enemies under status effects. Flashbangs are a bladenobi's friend. Not to mention a version of Implacable that only needs a melee *hit*, not a kill. So a miss/graze doesn't leave the Shinobi SOL.

And shooty-nobis are a thing now, too. Hit & Run gives a full action now. So H&R into Rapid Fire means flanks unleash some serious pain.


But yeah, a big goal of 1.3 playtesting was to make the perk trees have cohesive builds, but also present some really tough choices so there were no auto-picks. There's a few perks that still outperform on their rank, but I don't think there's any perks that are truly dead or autopicks. Although I think there's one on the spec tree that comes close.


*EDIT* I was the SPARK guy, so I didn't use Psi much during 1.3.... but you ought to check out Psi, now! Insanity is a single non-turn-ending action. It's crazy. Psis are kinda like Rangers now, in that they get really good action economy if they don't have to move much. They're a lot of fun. Still a pretty heavy investment, but actually worth it on most difficulties now.
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whitelion1284
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by whitelion1284 »

Thanks for the perspective, Thrair. I love my bladenobis. I did notice that Reaper got moved up on the tree as well. I'll have to start color coding the different builds. White and red for medic specialists, that kind of thing.

Full action on hit and run sounds amazing. And as soon as I get a psi lab up and running I'll check out the psionic. You know one thing that's been frustrating with the psi's is that it takes so bloody long to rank them up. They reach "promotable" state and then have to spend a week or two in the tank. It takes forever. Any idea if reducing that time was ever discussed?
stefan3iii
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by stefan3iii »

Heh, I find it funny that for most of the hard choices mentioned, I'm always picking the third unmentioned perk.

Shadowstrike
Combat protocol
Covert

Class trees are pretty well balanced, though I think there are definitely several must picks.
Full override
Sting Grenades
Reaper
Quickburn
Thrair
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Thrair »

Just a heads up, but Reaper was changed. It got a bigger damage/kill penalty. But this is offset by the shorter cooldown and the new Coup de Grace (which also makes Cutthroat better). Less of a damage spike, but up more often. Swords themselves also got a damage increase on the upgraded tiers for 1.3.

Overall, Bladenobis are a lot of fun. And if you can believe it, even Combatives is seeing some pretty hefty use. Turns out it allows you to Muton the Mutons. :P Which is a hefty dose of karma.
stefan3iii wrote:Heh, I find it funny that for most of the hard choices mentioned, I'm always picking the third unmentioned perk.

Shadowstrike
Combat protocol
Covert

Class trees are pretty well balanced, though I think there are definitely several must picks.
Full override
Sting Grenades
Reaper
Quickburn
I dunno about FO. It's great... but I've had some specs with pretty shit hack, before. TA is damn good. Doesn't even up the CD anymore. RP is a bit more meh, to me. But it's still Command-Lite.

Sting is auto-pick if you go Support Gren, but doesn't help Boomer or Fire builds. BB is getting buffed a smidge next build, but even that aside, Chain Shot's not bad to dip and can give some burst damage.

Reaper, same deal. Auto-pick on Sword builds. But +2 damage on flanks is *really* good on SMG builds. 6 damage total from a H&R+RF combo. And can be done every turn. Evasive's always been kinda weak in combat. But it's not dead because I usually take it on dedicated stealth shinobi as insurance against mistakes. An Officer Shinobi with Tradecraft isn't much of an infil hit and adds a lot of power. Not usually the one ya want to risk in combat. Especially since they can do their job well enough without gear. While taking Reaper means you'd want to equip that guy with upgraded swords. Which cost resources.

Quickburn I'll definite cede ya. It's really good. Especially since Salvo is kinda underwhelming. That said, I've still taken Tac Sense on them before. Usually when I get a tech with lousy health and neg defense or dodge. Better for them to not get shot at. Tac Sense isn't a tanking perk in that it doesn't mitigate damage. But it is great for personal survivability.
wizard1200
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by wizard1200 »

Thrair wrote:Sting is auto-pick if you go Support Gren, but doesn't help Boomer or Fire builds. BB is getting buffed a smidge next build, but even that aside, Chain Shot's not bad to dip and can give some burst damage.
I think that Boosted Cores and Biggest Booms will be still too weak in 1.5, because the damage does not scale well with the enemy hp. This is especially true for Commander and Legend.

Boosted Cores should increase the damage by 25 % (rounded up). This would increase the damage of early grenades by 1 and the damage of late grenades by 2.

Biggest Booms should increase the damage by 50 % (rounded up) when the grenade scores a critical hit. The critical hit chance should be 75 % in the center and it should be reduced by 15 % per tile.

Sting Grenades should give Flashbangs a chance of 75 % to stun the target in the center. The stun chance should be reduced by 15 % per tile.

Will 1.5 be released when it is finshed or at the same release date as the add-on?
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whitelion1284
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by whitelion1284 »

Reading the comments in this thread it is apparent to me that I am now and will likely forever be a sideliner. The amount of strategy and thought in this thread alone has humbled me.
Psieye
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Psieye »

Even supposed 'auto-picks' and 'always avoids' get thrown out the window if some amazing AWC opportunity presents itself. Just plain Gatecrasher-graduate rookies can present weird opportunities too - GTS makes all your new soldiers conform to templates but what do you do with a low mob, high aim grenadier? I made her a smoke/fire/tank/shooter and have been satisfied. I do wish AWC training times were shorter so players would actually experiment more - would definitely enourage diversity. Actually, is that config editable?
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

Psieye wrote:Even supposed 'auto-picks' and 'always avoids' get thrown out the window if some amazing AWC opportunity presents itself. Just plain Gatecrasher-graduate rookies can present weird opportunities too - GTS makes all your new soldiers conform to templates but what do you do with a low mob, high aim grenadier? I made her a smoke/fire/tank/shooter and have been satisfied. I do wish AWC training times were shorter so players would actually experiment more - would definitely enourage diversity. Actually, is that config editable?
Yes, it's in the XComLW_AWCPack.

I reduced it by 25% in my current campaign; also because I like the diversity / experiment.

And if you go this path, you might also consider either changing the respec time (which is something like a month for a high level soldier) or show all AWG perks at start. This way, you can figure it at the beginning what to do with a soldier or respec him later if he gets strong AWG perks that would be better suited for another path.
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WanWhiteWolf
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by WanWhiteWolf »

stefan3iii wrote:Heh, I find it funny that for most of the hard choices mentioned, I'm always picking the third unmentioned perk.

Shadowstrike
Combat protocol
Covert

Class trees are pretty well balanced, though I think there are definitely several must picks.
Full override
Sting Grenades
Reaper
Quickburn
I agree for Covert, sting, Reaper,Quickburn. I prefer low profile instead of shadowstrike.

As for Combat protocol + Full Override, that applies only if you spec all your specialists as Hackers. OW Specialist has - I would say - equally powerful options. I mean... OW specialist is the best OW build in the game. Even for timed missions, they are quite powerful. Moreover, you can get several medic perks as OW specialist, which makes him one of the best classes for non-timed missions (after snipers / PSIs) where you are bound to take some wounds from at least reaction shots.

Full override lets you to permanent control a drone or a lower tier MEC. Taking a super-heavy MECH or Sectopod is usually a significant gamble or a team effort (e.g. redscreen rounds , flashbangs to reduce HACK ...etc).
stefan3iii
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by stefan3iii »

I think reaper is must pick even if you've taken no other sword skills. Shooty shinobis use reaper to dive in with fleche to get hit and run or rapid fire shots. Reaper is basically 2 free kills on the turn you use it, it's just incredibly powerful. Hunter's instinct is good, but not reaper good.

Sting grenades are one of the strongest actions in the game. Even boomer grenadiers should bring sting, for versatility. Only exception I can think of is if you're bringing multiple grenadiers.

Full override at gsgt, and the hordes of robots, is what makes the specialist good now. You don't need any other skills, doesn't matter if you're a medical or overwatch spec, full override reliably kills a unit, and adds it to your team. On GOPs, having a hacked unit to draw fire is a huge boost. If you use redscreen you can get mission winning mecs like the m3.
Dwarfling
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Dwarfling »

Skills that seem to be autopick for me:

(Assault) Lightning Reflexes: At least on Legendary the amount of overwatches you'll be facing is crazy. With this you get rid of them for free.
(Grenadier) Volatile Mix: the only source of +radius.
(Grenadier) Full Kit: the other two are very situational.
(Sharpshooter) Low Profile: Long Watch is just bad, and Independent Tracking is just not good enough. Most cover on elevated terrain is half cover.
(Shinobi) Combatives: the other picks are just not that good. Combatives also gives +10dodge.
(Specialist) Full Override: even if the Specialist rolled crap hack, all you need is a Gremlin II and a Skulljack to grab a Hunter Drone for a mission. That Drone is amazing and shows up a lot.
Thrair
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Thrair »

Psieye wrote:I do wish AWC training times were shorter so players would actually experiment more - would definitely enourage diversity. Actually, is that config editable?
---> Config
---> XCOMLW_AWCPack

The bit you'll want to edit is the following bit:

TrainingDaysForAWCLevel[1] = 4.0f
TrainingDaysForAWCLevel[2] = 8.0f
TrainingDaysForAWCLevel[3] = 12.0f

Each is measured in days. 4.0f is 4 days, 8.0f is 8 days, etc. Do note these are not cumulative. Each perk tier (see the number in brackets) has its own time. You'll want to adjust each individually. One of the guys I know went for a 4/6/8 spread. I'm tempted to follow suit.

Additionall, there is the following:
PistolTrainingMultiplier=1.000

That's sets the percentage of base training time for pistol perks. Lower is faster, higher is slower. This is cumulative to any changes you make to the base training time. Pistol perks come in random order, each counting as a tier. You can see which tier they count as in the ini. It's listed as "level".

"+AWCAbilityTree_Pistol=(Level=3, Weight = 1, AbilityName="FanFire", ApplyToWeaponSlot=eInvSlot_Utility, UtilityCat="pistol")" for example is a level 3 perk. So default of 12 days to train.
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Thrair »

stefan3iii wrote:Full override at gsgt, and the hordes of robots, is what makes the specialist good now. You don't need any other skills, doesn't matter if you're a medical or overwatch spec, full override reliably kills a unit, and adds it to your team. On GOPs, having a hacked unit to draw fire is a huge boost. If you use redscreen you can get mission winning mecs like the m3.
Pretty sure 1.5's addressing the robot-horde issue. JL and co made some efforts to change the schedules to have some more enemy variety, especially late-game.
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by stefan3iii »

Thrair wrote:
stefan3iii wrote:Full override at gsgt, and the hordes of robots, is what makes the specialist good now. You don't need any other skills, doesn't matter if you're a medical or overwatch spec, full override reliably kills a unit, and adds it to your team. On GOPs, having a hacked unit to draw fire is a huge boost. If you use redscreen you can get mission winning mecs like the m3.
Pretty sure 1.5's addressing the robot-horde issue. JL and co made some efforts to change the schedules to have some more enemy variety, especially late-game.
Hopefully they don't get rid of too many mecs, in 1.2 the specialist was near useless in combat, because there were too few mecs.
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Thrair »

Think it's a middle ground. Less robot hordes, but more than 1.2. They are also adding some more chances to get some of the rarer alien corpses like Archons, Andromedons, etc. I think there's a chance of an alien pod on mid-late game troop columns that contains some of the rarer blokes. Hard to keep track of. I stepped away from the game for a bit after 1.3 landed.
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Skyro »

stefan3iii wrote:
Thrair wrote:
stefan3iii wrote:Full override at gsgt, and the hordes of robots, is what makes the specialist good now. You don't need any other skills, doesn't matter if you're a medical or overwatch spec, full override reliably kills a unit, and adds it to your team. On GOPs, having a hacked unit to draw fire is a huge boost. If you use redscreen you can get mission winning mecs like the m3.
Pretty sure 1.5's addressing the robot-horde issue. JL and co made some efforts to change the schedules to have some more enemy variety, especially late-game.
Hopefully they don't get rid of too many mecs, in 1.2 the specialist was near useless in combat, because there were too few mecs.
I found pretty good use out of equipping my low aim hack specialist with shotguns and skulljacks. Sorta becomes like a fleche for humanoid advent, and if you fail you still get an action for a point blank shotgun shot. Plus failsafe works vs. failed skulljacks :D
Psieye
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Psieye »

Skyro wrote:
stefan3iii wrote:
Thrair wrote:
Pretty sure 1.5's addressing the robot-horde issue. JL and co made some efforts to change the schedules to have some more enemy variety, especially late-game.
Hopefully they don't get rid of too many mecs, in 1.2 the specialist was near useless in combat, because there were too few mecs.
I found pretty good use out of equipping my low aim hack specialist with shotguns and skulljacks. Sorta becomes like a fleche for humanoid advent, and if you fail you still get an action for a point blank shotgun shot. Plus failsafe works vs. failed skulljacks :D
I have the sudden urge to put a skulljack hack spec in an EXO suit.
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by JulianSkies »

Thrair wrote:Think it's a middle ground. Less robot hordes, but more than 1.2. They are also adding some more chances to get some of the rarer alien corpses like Archons, Andromedons, etc. I think there's a chance of an alien pod on mid-late game troop columns that contains some of the rarer blokes. Hard to keep track of. I stepped away from the game for a bit after 1.3 landed.
You refer to the below patch note.
- Troop Maneuvers after midgame will often have a pod that includes certain FL-appropriate aliens that show up rarely to ensure those corpses are available more often (Gatekeeper, Andromedon, Archon and Codex)
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by stefan3iii »

JulianSkies wrote:
Thrair wrote:Think it's a middle ground. Less robot hordes, but more than 1.2. They are also adding some more chances to get some of the rarer alien corpses like Archons, Andromedons, etc. I think there's a chance of an alien pod on mid-late game troop columns that contains some of the rarer blokes. Hard to keep track of. I stepped away from the game for a bit after 1.3 landed.
You refer to the below patch note.
- Troop Maneuvers after midgame will often have a pod that includes certain FL-appropriate aliens that show up rarely to ensure those corpses are available more often (Gatekeeper, Andromedon, Archon and Codex)
Sectopods too I hope.

My current game, I'm in December, only have Forge and WW to do now, basically about to finish the game. I have gotten 1 Sectopod corpse, 1 Andromedon corpse, and 3 gatekeeper shells. The shells are useless to me, but I really need Andromedon and Sectopod corpses :( . And this is in a game where I did two HQs in November, which somehow had no Andromedons on them.
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by merkmerk »

wizard1200 wrote:
Thrair wrote:Sting is auto-pick if you go Support Gren, but doesn't help Boomer or Fire builds. BB is getting buffed a smidge next build, but even that aside, Chain Shot's not bad to dip and can give some burst damage.
I think that Boosted Cores and Biggest Booms will be still too weak in 1.5, because the damage does not scale well with the enemy hp. This is especially true for Commander and Legend.

Boosted Cores should increase the damage by 25 % (rounded up). This would increase the damage of early grenades by 1 and the damage of late grenades by 2.

Biggest Booms should increase the damage by 50 % (rounded up) when the grenade scores a critical hit. The critical hit chance should be 75 % in the center and it should be reduced by 15 % per tile.

Sting Grenades should give Flashbangs a chance of 75 % to stun the target in the center. The stun chance should be reduced by 15 % per tile.

Will 1.5 be released when it is finshed or at the same release date as the add-on?
Great points

I would really like to see the center tree for grenadiers get something too - right now it's just a weird mish mash.

It's like LW1 rocketeer all over again
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Psieye »

merkmerk wrote: I would really like to see the center tree for grenadiers get something too
Any proposal for what exactly the center tree should aim to be?
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merkmerk
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by merkmerk »

Psieye wrote:
merkmerk wrote: I would really like to see the center tree for grenadiers get something too
Any proposal for what exactly the center tree should aim to be?
I really don't know. One side covers support, the other damage - so right now there's just a weird mishmash of shooty abilities but they're a mess.

I leave it up to people who are better designers than I am on that
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by Psieye »

merkmerk wrote: I really don't know. One side covers support, the other damage - so right now there's just a weird mishmash of shooty abilities but they're a mess.
Are you fundamentally opposed to a grenadier who isn't great with grenades but is actually useful with a gun after all the consumables have run out? The centre tree could certainly do with some work, but is the concept of "shooter with a grenade launcher" something undesired?
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merkmerk
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Re: Painful Skill Tree Changes

Post by merkmerk »

Psieye wrote:
merkmerk wrote: I really don't know. One side covers support, the other damage - so right now there's just a weird mishmash of shooty abilities but they're a mess.
Are you fundamentally opposed to a grenadier who isn't great with grenades but is actually useful with a gun after all the consumables have run out? The centre tree could certainly do with some work, but is the concept of "shooter with a grenade launcher" something undesired?
No, not at all - I just don't know what you add.

You can take the lazy way out and try to give them overwatch spec stuff, or go generic suppression + foritify + blah blah
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