Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

mudhut79
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Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by mudhut79 »

So I mind-controlled a stun lancer the other day, and the text for the stun attack said something vaguely like:
"Stun the enemy for damage and possible negative effects. If the enemy is already damaged there is a chance to knock them unconscious." Please note I am not sure I have remembered the text right.

But I can remember multiple occasions when full-health Xcom members have been knocked unconscious by lancers! However, the proposed limit on unconscious status effects (only possible if the unit has existing damage, like kubikiri) would be a great mechanic, much better than present I believe. Losing a full health unit at the start of a mission (when you couldn't be one-shot by any other unit) is just too big a swing against you. I would even be willing to have stun lancers coded to deliberately target wounded units in exchange (would still need to keep some randomness about who they target to prevent muton-combatives type exploits of course).

And at some point obviously some Dev thought so too, judging by the UI text ingame. (in vanilla presumably, though was it deliberately changed or accidental?)

So
1- can anyone else confirm that i am not crazy and stun lancers can currently knock unconscious full health Xcom (in both vanilla and LW2)
2- do others think this would be an improvement or not?
3- even if I can't convince you for M2 and M3 lancers, what about for M1 lancers at least? That's when you have the least tools available to counter them after all...

PS just on implementation
There is a thread on insanity below where fowlj gives the mechanics on how insanity works (cause lancer attacks use the same mechanic). There are five possible options, random roll determines what comes up. That same thread notes that when Alien Rulers are using the same mechanic, the options can be swapped (unconscious is removed from the pool when an alien ruler has already knocked one other unit unconscious). So this gives me hope that it would be mechanically possible to implement this (unconscious is only in the pool of five possible outcomes if the unit is already wounded).
ginyu549
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by ginyu549 »

Yep, I am constantly having soldiers knocked unconscious when at full health. It's super lame when I take 2 damage on a soldier who has 4 or 6 ablative HP (vest/plating) and they are knocked unconscious. I mean that doesn't even make sense! How do you hit my armor, not even do any real damage to the soldier, and yet unconsciousness is the result? I would be OK with it if the lancer actually touched the soldiers real health, and not just the ablative....
DerAva
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by DerAva »

At the moment the outcomes of the lancer stun are only based on will, not on HP:
The debuff is defined by a stat contest between the Lancer's Strength (75 for normal Lancers, 85 for Heavy, 95 for Elite) and the Soldier's Will. After the Lancer hits the melee attack, he has a 50 + Strength - Will chance to apply a debuff. If he succeeds in this roll there is a second roll to define which debuff. The Weights are defined by the ratio between Strength and Will and the final chances (in %) end up being:

Disorientation: 200 x WILL^2 / (2 x STR^2 + 2 x WILL^2 + STR x WILL)
Stun: 100 x (STR + WILL) x STR / (2 x STR^2 + 2 x WILL^2 + STR x WILL)
Unconsciousness: 100 x STR^2 / (2 x STR^2 + 2 x WILL^2 + STR x WILL)

A rookie has 40 will. This means that, if a normal Lancer hits a rookie, he will be debuffed 85% of the time. If the Lancer lands the debuff the chances are 18% for disorientation, 49% stun and 32% unconsciousness. Against a Captain with 80 will, the same Lancer only lands the debuff 45% of the time and even when he does the effect is usually weaker: 43% disorientation, 39% stun and 19% unconsciousness. Against a shaken soldier (with 0 will) the Lancer always lands the debuff and the effect is 50% stun and 50% unconsciousness.
Dwarfling
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Dwarfling »

Unconscous is a goddamn cancer that shouldn't be in the game, period.

"Oh look, you had a bad roll, here, now you have -1 soldier, and -2 if you want to carry him out of the mission".
mmCion
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by mmCion »

Dwarfling wrote:Unconscous is a goddamn cancer that shouldn't be in the game, period.

"Oh look, you had a bad roll, here, now you have -1 soldier, and -2 if you want to carry him out of the mission".
I get where you're coming from, but it's more like:

"oh look, you didn't kill the lancer first, then you had a bad roll, then you didn't carry anything to revive unconscious soldiers"

It's not all RnG, you can do some things to mitigate the effects of bad rolls, but yeah, some mechanics could use some tweaking.
Steve-O
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Steve-O »

ginyu549 wrote:I mean that doesn't even make sense! How do you hit my armor, not even do any real damage to the soldier, and yet unconsciousness is the result?
Given that the lancer's weapon is essentially a giant heavy-duty taser rod, I'm actually OK with the idea that they might zap you through your armor.
Dwarfling wrote:Unconscous is a goddamn cancer that shouldn't be in the game, period.
That's what medics - aka "backup hackers with medkits" - are for. (Remember how we all love to say they're useless?)

Revival Protocol has saved my bacon on more than one occasion by waking up a soldier who was unexpectedly KO'd (either by a lancer or sometimes a muton.)
Zork
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Zork »

As far I know there's no item to revive unconscious soldier, only two skills of one class allow it, and then medkit can increase the number of use if I remember well, or not. If I remember well Medkit are only for stabilizing, you won't get back the soldier and will have to carry him.

For me that's that three tedious aspects of the gameplay design (XCOM2 or LW2), but honestly Im' not sure that change any of them would improve the gameplay. For a little out of topic those 2 aspects are:
- Two classes are making a too heavy difference and are too unique/mandatory (for both XCOM2 and LW2), that is the Specialist and the Sharshooter (ok I still do missions without any Sharpshooter but still).
- Attack is too much favored in comparison to defense (for both XCOM2 and LW2 but because of different causes and it's possible LW2 targets a bit more the problem), that is kill fast seems more important than defend better (I could be wrong). A lot of this problem is caused by rush coming from timers and/or successive waves/spawning/reinforcements.
- There's a lot too much focus on gambling (for both XCOM2 and LW2).

Frankly I have no solution to "fix" the last two points, both would change hugely the gameplay. For the first point related to thread topic the approach could be like it's done for Shinobi case, even better in LW2 than in XCOM2.

It's ok that each class has something unique, but for those class they are like mandatory (specialist) or too much influent on the gameplay (sharpshooter).
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
JulianSkies
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by JulianSkies »

Zork wrote:As far I know there's no item to revive unconscious soldier, only two skills of one class allow it, and then medkit can increase the number of use if I remember well, or not. If I remember well Medkit are only for stabilizing, you won't get back the soldier and will have to carry him.
Actually it's three skills: Revival Protocol, Restoration Protocol and Solace (on the PsiOp)
There's also an item that prevents it, the Mindshield, that you can take if you find the possibility of Unconscious too excessively dangerous. I've never been bothered by Unconscious but then again I have an abject hathred to Combat Protocol and thus have a lot of medics
stefan3iii
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by stefan3iii »

I just consider lancers to be must kill/CC targets, same as grenadiers and rocketeers. They won't lance you if they're disoriented.

Not sure if it's good design though to have so many enemies that basically aren't allowed to have an action because the result can be so disastrous.
Zork
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Zork »

Sigh, I should have guess that solace would allow it. I used solace many times but never for reviving and I bet in at least one mission that would have been helpul and I had one psi with solace.

For OP topic, I agree with the side thinking it's fine like it is and shouldn't be changed.

In fact in my opinion,
JulianSkies wrote:
Zork wrote:As far I know there's no item to revive unconscious soldier, only two skills of one class allow it, and then medkit can increase the number of use if I remember well, or not. If I remember well Medkit are only for stabilizing, you won't get back the soldier and will have to carry him.
Actually it's three skills: Revival Protocol, Restoration Protocol and Solace (on the PsiOp)
There's also an item that prevents it, the Mindshield, that you can take if you find the possibility of Unconscious too excessively dangerous. I've never been bothered by Unconscious but then again I have an abject hathred to Combat Protocol and thus have a lot of medics
Woo I didn't knew for solace and even less for Mindshield, is it LW2 or also XCOM2?

Carry a mindshield for all frontline is quite a burden. In XCOM2 Mindshield is a gameplay burden making the play more pale. Panicking is a lot of fun in fact, ok I don't need a soldier rushing to enemies, but it's quite great to have a panicking soldier do an amazing shot or cover very well at a nice place, ha ha. In general it's still a huge burden, but less and more fun when they do something useful. This burden is the problem of Mindshield, it's rarely a good option to not take one for a soldier mentally broken, so the panicking gameplay last only the very first parts of the campaign.
Last edited by Zork on Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
Zork
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Zork »

To soften unconscious and not have some revive skill, carry a body should only decrease of 1 point the movement, for overwatch the soldier would put the body on ground automatically and take it back automatically at beginning of next turn. And for shooting the soldier would put the body on ground automatically and take it back after. Not realistic but softer.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
Psieye
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Psieye »

stefan3iii wrote:I just consider lancers to be must kill/CC targets, same as grenadiers and rocketeers. They won't lance you if they're disoriented.

Not sure if it's good design though to have so many enemies that basically aren't allowed to have an action because the result can be so disastrous.
A number of those "must never be allowed to act" enemies can be made irrelevant with gear/formation choices. The M2 grenadier is dangerous unless the only targets it sees all have Hazmat. The stun lancer is just a nuisance if the only targets it has have Mindshield (or there's a Revival spec around).

As for Revival, there were times when I wish I had it available to cure Disorientation on a key turn - there's more earlygame sources than just the drone which apply that. Granted you can just slug through it but it's not a one-trick pony.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Zork
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Zork »

There are enemies immune to flash, the Muton types, and I think the Gatekeeper; not sure for more. For sure all mechanical stuff are immune to standard flash but not with the right skill.

For mutons the only replacement I quoted is the Arc Thrower with Chain Lightning skill, it's rather impressive to get an army of mutons surrounding the Assault and sleeping. The only problem is is instead of launching the flash grenade in middle of enemies you need thrown your Assault, ouch that's heavy guys.

Frankly when I started get a ton of mutons in most missions I stopped bring much flash grenades and now the disoriented guy is myself, sigh.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
Steelflame
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Steelflame »

Flashbangs tend to get relegated to support grenadiers come mid game, unless you're lucky enough to have flashbang AWC perk on another frontliner who can use it (Better yet if they also roll Volatile Mix, Bombardier, and/or Rapid Deployment to go with it), as you generally start needing to flash enemies at a range far longer than your throwing range by midgame.
Steve-O
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Steve-O »

Zork wrote: Carry a mindshield for all frontline is quite a burden.
I agree that putting a mindshield on every soldier would be excessive. It's an option if you're really THAT annoyed by lancers KO'ing your soldiers, but in my experience it's not really necessary. I have yet to actually build a mind shield, myself.

In all honesty, as regards aliens KO'ing my soldiers, a single medic is all I've ever needed. I don't even bring a medic on every GOp, either (although I DO make sure to bring one on the big missions - Golden Path, Supply Raid, Troop Convoy, HQ Raid, etc.) If I see a lancer and I don't have a medic, I just prioritize killing him. I don't even mean CC'ing him into inaction, either, I just make a point of shooting him first with anyone who has a decent shot.

I can count, on one hand, the number of times I've needed to carry a KO'd solider off the field. Having a soldier KO'd can be a game changer for sure, but it doesn't really happen that often, in my experience. Certainly not something in need of balance tweaks ATM; just adjust your tactics if you're worried about it. The whole point of a tactical game is that you have choices like this to make, after all. If you could easily handle every possible threat at all times, the game would be a lot less interesting.
Psieye wrote: A number of those "must never be allowed to act" enemies can be made irrelevant with gear/formation choices. The M2 grenadier is dangerous unless the only targets it sees all have Hazmat. The stun lancer is just a nuisance if the only targets it has have Mindshield (or there's a Revival spec around).
Also agreed on hazmat. I haven't actually finished a campaign all the way through yet, but I put hazmats on everybody as a matter of course. It's the best vest I've seen so far - not because it gives the most HP/armor, but making you immune to fire/poison/whatever else is HUGE. (I don't have the vest's powers memorized, but in gameplay it seems to make a lot of AOE stuff ADVENT throws at me irrelevant.) I'll put hazmat on in addition to the ceramic ablative if I can afford the extra slot, otherwise I replace the latter with hazmat.

As far as ADVENT forces go, my priorities for stun-locking/quick-killing are Rocketeers, followed by Lancers (if I don't have a medic handy) and Gunners (in general.) I'll prioritize officers IF they get annoying with their holotargeting, but that's about it. I try to hack/control mechs as much as I can (that's the hacker's first task when a pod is activated, assuming he has Haywire up.) The mech will usually die before I even get a chance to do anything with it, but every shot fired at the hacked mech is a shot not fired at me. Plus the mech is now dead, so one less enemy to worry about.
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by gimrah »

Note I don't think Solace does revive from unconsciousness. However Solace does break mind control.

Restoration and revival work.

Also it is a will test, so at the margin, using focus PCS when you have nothing better could be considered. Lead by example and mind merge also boost will.

Finally, granted it's a bit difficult to predict who a lancer will attack. They seem to like low defence targets, noting melee is not affected by cover so it's usually just inherent defence (plus smoke and aid protocol if in play). So if you have a gunner with negative defence, consider taking combatives.
Zork
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Zork »

Myself I don't prioritize lancers at all, I have one team focused on overwatch and hacking that hadn't any revive because of the build of the two specialists, but never had troubles to carry a soldier knocked down by a Lancer. Now I know solace skill is also working for revive I just don't have any team without a revive. As far I remember the only time I had troubles with lancers and knock down was during first parts of a few campaign.

My opinion is still that carry a unit should be soften, play with one less unit is already a penalty, take care pick and carry is already something, so the only penalty could be one less movement point that would be already non neglect-able.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
Zork
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Zork »

gimrah wrote:Note I don't think Solace does revive from unconsciousness. However Solace does break mind control.

Restoration and revival work.
Ha ok, didn't bother check but that was surprising as not matching the skill description.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by gimrah »

Zork wrote:
gimrah wrote:Note I don't think Solace does revive from unconsciousness. However Solace does break mind control.

Restoration and revival work.
Ha ok, didn't bother check but that was surprising as not matching the skill description.
Yeah if you check the second level of perk description (under the little question mark), it lists everything except unconsciousness.

I got bitten by this and apparently it's deliberate as PI doesn't like exactly analogous perks and wanted to leave revival with a unique feature vs solace. (To be fair curing mind control is nice as a replacement on solace.)

However I doubt the main description will be clarified at this stage because text is actually one of the most painful things to amend as you have to also do it in a bunch of languages the devs don't speak.
Psieye
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Psieye »

Steve-O wrote: I agree that putting a mindshield on every soldier would be excessive. It's an option if you're really THAT annoyed by lancers KO'ing your soldiers, but in my experience it's not really necessary. I have yet to actually build a mind shield, myself.
It requires a paradigm shift: the frontline is 1 single soldier (who can reasonably take no wounds despite being seen by 6 active aliens). Nobody else should be in range of the Lancer. Then you know the Lancer will be going after the one guy who has mindshield.

Unconscious isn't why I like Revive. I consider that a niche use case. For me, the main attraction of Revive is to deal with earlygame panic (hello Rookies) and occasionally an untimely disorient. Solace is not an earlygame option (unless you make a huge, strategic sacrifice to rush Psi).
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Zork
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Zork »

gimrah wrote:
Zork wrote:
gimrah wrote:Note I don't think Solace does revive from unconsciousness. However Solace does break mind control.

Restoration and revival work.
Ha ok, didn't bother check but that was surprising as not matching the skill description.
Yeah if you check the second level of perk description (under the little question mark), it lists everything except unconsciousness.

I got bitten by this and apparently it's deliberate as PI doesn't like exactly analogous perks and wanted to leave revival with a unique feature vs solace. (To be fair curing mind control is nice as a replacement on solace.)

However I doubt the main description will be clarified at this stage because text is actually one of the most painful things to amend as you have to also do it in a bunch of languages the devs don't speak.
It's not a surprise for me, because it's a skill with no limit on the number of uses.

There's a tiny bug in my language about Solace, there's two Solace, one passive like in XCOM 2 and one active, what's weird is they have the same name.

Yeah from a language cleaning point of view, in my language the texts look quite well done, but there's a ton of excessive impressions. The original game has never been good at explaining its rules in both 1&2, but it becomes quite worse with LW2. Ha well I don't care Ironman so if I don't remember and I can check, I just save and check and reload if necessary, what's weird is the number of time I still do it or wonder if I should do it.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
Zork
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Zork »

Psieye wrote:
Steve-O wrote: I agree that putting a mindshield on every soldier would be excessive. It's an option if you're really THAT annoyed by lancers KO'ing your soldiers, but in my experience it's not really necessary. I have yet to actually build a mind shield, myself.
It requires a paradigm shift: the frontline is 1 single soldier (who can reasonably take no wounds despite being seen by 6 active aliens). Nobody else should be in range of the Lancer. Then you know the Lancer will be going after the one guy who has mindshield.

Unconscious isn't why I like Revive. I consider that a niche use case. For me, the main attraction of Revive is to deal with earlygame panic (hello Rookies) and occasionally an untimely disorient. Solace is not an earlygame option (unless you make a huge, strategic sacrifice to rush Psi).
Well that's a bit exaggerate, at least for my play style and skill. The Lancer case could be rare, but the almost dead case can happens. It's even more true because there's a perk that can guaranty non death, and you can build a specialist with insane healing abilities.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by gimrah »

Zork wrote:
gimrah wrote:
Zork wrote: Ha ok, didn't bother check but that was surprising as not matching the skill description.
Yeah if you check the second level of perk description (under the little question mark), it lists everything except unconsciousness.

I got bitten by this and apparently it's deliberate as PI doesn't like exactly analogous perks and wanted to leave revival with a unique feature vs solace. (To be fair curing mind control is nice as a replacement on solace.)

However I doubt the main description will be clarified at this stage because text is actually one of the most painful things to amend as you have to also do it in a bunch of languages the devs don't speak.
It's not a surprise for me, because it's a skill with no limit on the number of uses.

There's a tiny bug in my language about Solace, there's two Solace, one passive like in XCOM 2 and one active, what's weird is they have the same name.

Yeah from a language cleaning point of view, in my language the texts look quite well done, but there's a ton of excessive impressions. The original game has never been good at explaining its rules in both 1&2, but it becomes quite worse with LW2. Ha well I don't care Ironman so if I don't remember and I can check, I just save and check and reload if necessary, what's weird is the number of time I still do it or wonder if I should do it.
Yeah I don't play ironman and that's one of the reasons. And one re-load I allow myself is when I want to test if a perk does what I think, or particularly if I'm not sure how perks interact.
Zork
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by Zork »

Well one of my regular bug is corrupted save, so no way Ironman would be possible for me. I can load the save fine, it's a save at the ship. And if I go to planet view, or try save the game, it's a crash. I suspect it's related to a mission popup that requires to start or cancel, I go back to ship to check more details and decide, and then save and quit. But I'm not sure because usually I don't remember fully well how finished previous day play session. Im' sure it was the case when I decided give a check with an Advent strength quite too high, then give up and load back only to get a corrupted save.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
nmkaplan
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Re: Stun Lancer - restricting unconscious status effect to already wounded units

Post by nmkaplan »

Zork wrote:There's a tiny bug in my language about Solace, there's two Solace, one passive like in XCOM 2 and one active, what's weird is they have the same name.
It's not a tiny bug, it's actually a huge bug - one that will be fixed in 1.5. The passive version of solace should not exist in LW2, and it can bug out your Psi troops. There's a mod that fixes it for now until 1.5 comes out http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =933334693
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