Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

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Razor
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Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Razor »

I know all classes have value and purpose, but I'm making out my squads in groups of eight (I'm a stickler for that), and although I usually like to have one of each class in a squad, I'm tempted to double up on Specialists so that I can rotate officer training and also have a "combat" specialist and a "medic" specialist for each mission.

I know it depends on mission types, but I'm leaning toward dropping the ranger as a required class for each squad (though I could have a few unassigned rangers available for slot filling). What are your thoughts?
merkmerk
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by merkmerk »

I think it's really up to you

I consider rangers the backbone of my squads and I want to have one on every mission or I just don't feel comfortable.

They're usually my highest aim guys with the best rifle and scope/mags/auto loader

You can usually sub out shinobis or sharpshooters depending on the type of mission

I find gunners incredibly valuable but I think one specialist is enough.
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Content Consumer
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Content Consumer »

I've never found much use for a combat Specialist, actually, though I know some people are very much in favor of them.
I generally run with a mixed bag, but almost always with two Rangers. For straight-up damage, a midlevel ranger is more than a match for a high-level Sharpshooter or Gunner. I usually make one a reaction-fire Ranger and the other a critical hit Ranger, but they can work well any way you choose.
I find Shinobis, Sharpshooters, and Gunners (suppression type) very situational. Sometimes they're very valuable, and sometimes useless. Grenadiers are very useful as support troops.
I almost never use Technicals or Sparks in general squads, though I do have one set up to only use Grenadiers, Technicals, and Sparks, when I want to completely level a city.
Razor
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Razor »

I agree with Technicals. I love their rockets and flamethrowers, but the rocket is a one-shot deal and I'm usually underwhelmed by the results, and the flamethrower is very situational. I can never get the ideal ambushes "Burninator!" that XWynn sets up - maybe I don't have the patience. Maybe I've just had some bad luck with my rangers - my favorite ranger was just killed in my campaign.

I was assuming that everyone is using specialists for their officers. If not, then what other classes do you use? I saw someone mention shinobis, and even though they are often further removed from the party, they can still do a lot of officer commands while stealthed (I think) and would make me not feel so bad about them staying concealed while the rest of the party is duking it out.
Psieye
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Psieye »

My 8-man squads have 3 snipers, 2 specs and 1 shinobi. The other 2 slots are whoever is around. I'm not sure which is the least valuable class in that.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
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orion_winterfire
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by orion_winterfire »

Depends, greatly, on what stage of the game, and also on whether the squad is focused on certain kinds of missions or kept generalist.

Technicals are indespensible early but mediocre in late game, for example.

And it could matter if you have a plan for builds. Think about the builds you know you want in the squad. What classes/builds synergizes well with those?

Make sure each squad has some single target power and some crowd control.

If you use nce/hp, the individual stats make a difference too.
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whitelion1284
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by whitelion1284 »

I like 1 of each class but I think that's cos I'm not terribly good at the game. I recently started a smash and grab squad with 2 sharpshooters, 3 rangers, 1 shinobi and a specialist and I was surprised by how well it works. I've also found that I like technicals for haven liaisons: flamethrower to break concealment then rockets and grenades to soften incoming faceless. "Least valuable" though? I think it's a situational answer and largely depends on what feels good to you.
Skyfire
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Skyfire »

One thing that complicates this quite a bit is that there's quite a lot of overlap between certain class roles.

Sharpshooters, support Grenadiers, flame Technicals, stealth Shinobi, and hacker or medic Specialists are all pretty much irreplaceable in their specialty, but there are a bunch of other niches that can be filled equally well by more than one class.

Need an overwatch master? Rangers and specialists can both be built to cover that. Primary-weapon shooter can be handled by Rangers or Gunners. Highly-mobile, point-blank damage means an Assault or a sword Shinobi. AoE damage and cover destruction can come from a Grenadier or a rocket Technical (with honorable mentions for Sparks, Gunners and anyone-with-an-Exo-suit).

Are there differences between the overlapping classes? Definitely, but they're all playstyle-dependant. Does the fact that a Ranger is kind of like a cross between an overwatch Specialist and a shooty gunner (with a dash of shotgun Assault) make them 'redundant' or 'two-for-the-price-of-one'? Well, that depends on how you've built the rest of your squad, and what kind of tactics you prefer. Some people will find them to be strong, versatile soldiers that make up the core of their squad, while others will go 'meh, I can get all that and hacking and suppression on top if I just bring a Specialist and a Gunner'.

And then there's the degree to which mission objectives can change things up. Give them time and space (and a concealed spotter) and DFA Sharpshooters can do incredible things. Put exactly the same soldier on a jailbreak with the evac on the other side of the map, and he might literally never fire a shot. So does that make them godlike, useless, or somewhere in between?

In terms of your actual question (which class to drop for an eight-man, seven-class squad), I'd probably single out Ranger as the class that adds the least that can't be duplicated by other classes - but on the other hand, the whole reason so much of the Ranger's tree is duplicated elsewhere is that 'just shoot stuff' is really, really useful, even if it's not very flashy.

If you don't drop Rangers, it might be wise to split your squads into two or three groups with different combat styles: a fast-moving, GOps blitzkrieg squad will likely find it best to drop Sharpshooters, while your long-game HQ and Supply-raid squads could drop Grenadiers or Technicals as being too dependant on limited-use abilities.
Dwarfling
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Dwarfling »

Specifically for 8-man squads? So... HQ Raids and Golden Path missions?

- Technicals (missions are too long). Although if said 8-man mission is a troop column then they turn very valuable.
- Hacker Specialists that aren't officers.
Zork
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Zork »

Most of my squads use 2 specialists and I don't bother not have some classes in the squad. When you use 2 Specialist and 2 Psi this doesn't let much spots for other classes.

The most influential classes are Shinobi and Sharpshooter, play without one or both removes some group tactics. But that doesn't make them more valuable, just more unique.

Is diversify the classes increase the number of possibilities, beside the special cases (Hacking, Stealth, very long range, control, destruction), I don't think so. I feel that double a class creates synergy.

In my point of view I would say Technical and Assault are the classes I give up in a squad more easily, but it's only because I can't get used to play them well. For Assaults it's to the point that half of them in my current play don't use a shotgun and don't use any skill requiring them.

Rangers are the most obvious for gunning but a team without any can be totally fine. So my point of view is there's no class required and their value depends on the whole squad and the tactics you want use. And it's the same idea, there's no less valuable class in general, it depends of squads and tactics you want use.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)
Steelflame
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Steelflame »

Heavily depends on context.

The least valuable class is probably a Technical for long missions. Their whole snick is limited use, but insanely high impact, abilities in the Flamethrower and Rocket Launcher.


But those times you get a 4-5 pod Firestorm.... damn. Especially good if you have a Psi who can Stasis them after the fact (As there is no hope of them having anything resembling cover within a single move after that from someone granting them an extra action).

As far as officers, as I saw someone talking about them, there are 3 primary officer types I consider.

1. Officer Techs. Good because it just gives them a ton of other things they can do even when they are out of abilities. Good for defensively focused officers.

2. Officer Sharpshooters. Two primary types I consider here. Type 1 is stealth marker, geared for just holo-targetting everything from stealth and using officer abilities as needed. Type 2 is only done if that officer had the AWC Quick Study perk, but a pistol build Officer. Stealth is ignored for the sake of taking the Center Mass perk. Both types will take the Officer perk that makes all soldiers within range get the 50% difference between their aim and officer aim as a boost, because Sharpshooter aim progression is just insane, and giving what is effectively an aura +15 aim is just glorious, especially when you combo it with the fact that the Holo-targetter is giving them a further +10 to +20 aim and crit chance, and +1 to 3 damage on all hits. Wonderful officers for making low aim people never ever miss.

3. Officer Shinobis. Pretty much purely for stealth missions where I only send 1-2 people on with massive infiltration bonuses, before extracting within a single turn thanks to the officer ability to drop extract times by 2 turns.
hamds28
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by hamds28 »

I think this thread is a testament to how well the Pavonis crew has designed the LW2 classes. Everyone builds their ideal squads differently, and given how few variables there are to optimize, the diversity is surprising.

It's hard to answer the question posed in the OP fairly, but I'll just say that I find flamer Technicals and Sapper Grenadiers least useful for my preferred playstyle (risk minimization). My non-negotiable class/builds are:

DFA Sniper: Kill stuff reliably.
Ranger (OW or Infantry doesn't matter, but Rapid Reaction is mandatory): Space control and general shootiness.

And that's pretty much it. I can work with Needle Grenadiers, Smokers, Flashers. Same with other classes. Just different tactics.
stefan3iii
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by stefan3iii »

hamds28 wrote:I think this thread is a testament to how well the Pavonis crew has designed the LW2 classes. Everyone builds their ideal squads differently, and given how few variables there are to optimize, the diversity is surprising.
I can agree with that. I think there are some imbalances at certain parts of the game (ex late game technical, early game gunner/sniper), but overall the classes are well balanced.
Noober
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Noober »

stefan3iii wrote:
hamds28 wrote:I think this thread is a testament to how well the Pavonis crew has designed the LW2 classes. Everyone builds their ideal squads differently, and given how few variables there are to optimize, the diversity is surprising.
I can agree with that. I think there are some imbalances at certain parts of the game (ex late game technical, early game gunner/sniper), but overall the classes are well balanced.
I don't understand why everyone dislike late game technical.
At MSGT (bunker bust + FITH) with gauntlet 2 and EXO they have 3 pretty accurate cover destructive rockets and the MSGT's one has a HUGE raduis.
Even at LCPL with FITH they have 2 relliable rockets = cover destruction for2 pods.
Consider flash and inevitably incoming fire grenade and combative nerfs there is no better way to kill those annoying M3 mutons (20 def, tac sense, High cover) then destroying thier cover.
That alone make them the one I want on every mission even HQ.
And not to mention they also have 2 flame charges which is a very nice ambush tool at least.
Psieye
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Psieye »

Razor wrote: I was assuming that everyone is using specialists for their officers. If not, then what other classes do you use? I saw someone mention shinobis, and even though they are often further removed from the party, they can still do a lot of officer commands while stealthed (I think) and would make me not feel so bad about them staying concealed while the rest of the party is duking it out.
My specialists are further away from the action than my shinobi in the latter-half of 8-man GOps. I'd never make specialists my officers as they have way too much to be doing to waste an action on officer things. In fact, in 8-man GOps I prefer not to rely on Command at all - the officer is a snapshot sniper who is there for Trial by Fire (preferably Lead by Example too). Because 8-man GOps never spend long infiltrating (2 days), I churn out Sgts quickly.

Earlygame snipers: in my current Commander campaign, I found that I always wanted a sniper even in earlygame "Squaddies & Rookies" GOps. Before sneks and stun lancers show up there's nothing dangerous if you hunker tank and have flashbangs. That means the frontline must be positioned such that the enemy flank themselves without the sniper needing to move. It also really helps that 2-man pods are the norm at the start: snipe 1 and it's just 1 extra enemy joining the fray. You may have figured out I'm not big on alpha strikes. "Activate at squadsight and make the small pod scamper into a flank by the rest of the squad" was my go-to tactic.
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Exquisitor
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Exquisitor »

Least valuable: sparks
Most valuable: sharpshooters, rangers, assaults, shinobis
Noober
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Noober »

Exquisitor wrote:Least valuable: sparks
Most valuable: sharpshooters, rangers, assaults, shinobis
SPARK is invaluable in retal, S&G and kill the relay missions. Basically - all missions there you are against a lot of yellow allerted enemies as they tend to shot SPARK and the SPARK is an ideal tank with 5 abblatives and 3 Armor (MK2 Armor, Bulwark + 2 heal and later - Damage Control). Not to mention it's cover destructive BIT (with bombard perk) and injured immunties.

DFA sharpshooter are not the one you want on missions like jails/resque/extract due to obj and evac are usually far-far away from each other.

Other then that I'd say a hacker is not required for non hacking missions (S&G, kill the relay, extract VIP).

THE MOST valuable (in 1.4) - TSGT grenadiers with 2 sting and 2-3 fire - now they are kings of CC. I strongly suggest to upgrade launcher to MK2 as even past nerf + 2 range is crutial more often then not.
stefan3iii
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by stefan3iii »

Noober wrote:
stefan3iii wrote:
hamds28 wrote:I think this thread is a testament to how well the Pavonis crew has designed the LW2 classes. Everyone builds their ideal squads differently, and given how few variables there are to optimize, the diversity is surprising.
I can agree with that. I think there are some imbalances at certain parts of the game (ex late game technical, early game gunner/sniper), but overall the classes are well balanced.
I don't understand why everyone dislike late game technical.
At MSGT (bunker bust + FITH) with gauntlet 2 and EXO they have 3 pretty accurate cover destructive rockets and the MSGT's one has a HUGE raduis.
Even at LCPL with FITH they have 2 relliable rockets = cover destruction for2 pods.
Consider flash and inevitably incoming fire grenade and combative nerfs there is no better way to kill those annoying M3 mutons (20 def, tac sense, High cover) then destroying thier cover.
That alone make them the one I want on every mission even HQ.
And not to mention they also have 2 flame charges which is a very nice ambush tool at least.
Technicals are indeed great at cover destruction. The issue is:
1) Late game half your soldiers have high enough aim to shoot through cover
2) Many enemies don't even use cover.
3) Shredstorm Cannons are pretty good at destroying cover, not as good as rockets, but good enough, and can be put on everyone.
4) Many enemies are fire immune late game
5) Damage output of technical is quite low late game, relative to shooty classes. Fire is like a warm breeze for m3 officers.
6) Fire CC is ok, but grenadiers do CC better than a technical.

They're not terrible lategame, but I think almost any other class is going to be more effective in their slot, whether you want damage or CC.
Noober
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Re: Least valuable class in 8-man squad?

Post by Noober »

[/quote]
Technicals are indeed great at cover destruction. The issue is:
1) Late game half your soldiers have high enough aim to shoot through cover
2) Many enemies don't even use cover.
3) Shredstorm Cannons are pretty good at destroying cover, not as good as rockets, but good enough, and can be put on everyone.
4) Many enemies are fire immune late game
5) Damage output of technical is quite low late game, relative to shooty classes. Fire is like a warm breeze for m3 officers.
6) Fire CC is ok, but grenadiers do CC better than a technical.

They're not terrible lategame, but I think almost any other class is going to be more effective in their slot, whether you want damage or CC.[/quote]

Well, the best mobile shooter rf-crit ranger has at max 99 aim NCE (75 bas + lvl up + Combat Fitness) + 15 (Scope) + 10 (Locked On) + 10 (max AIM PCS) +5 (tracer) = 143 or 128 with RF. And this is an almost absolute max (steady weapon might give another 10 but that's two max in one soldier which is virtually impossible in this game without save scum).
Gunner has even less.
M3 Mutton has 45 HC + 20 Def + up to 15 tac sence = 80 def. M3 Officers/sergeants etc have a close number.
So other then steadied DFA sharpshooter on HG and assault up close no one has even close enough aim to safely and reliably shot those things and incoming fire grenade nerf severely reduce the relaibility of grenadiers on CC.

But I agree that Shredstorms changes everything once unlocked and mass produced.
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