Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Phrozehn
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:35 pm

Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Phrozehn » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:51 am

How does everyone else deal with these crazy retals? I just loaded a Defend the AO mission... half a blue move away from me are three or four 4 man pods... In a map that, unless I'm confused, isn't supposed to generally start with anything on the ground... It's the one with RNFs every turn.

What's the best way to cope with these missions (cheating? Do you just eat the heavy gimping?)? I don't want to be a permanent disadvantage on my Legendary play through. It's hard enough as it is! Any suggestions would be awesome :)

Oh, or better yet: Any ini changes I can make to help? I don't think Pavonis has given us any ini tweaks that can fix it ahead of 1.5 yet, have they?

JM01
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:29 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by JM01 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:18 am

Phrozehn wrote:How does everyone else deal with these crazy retals? I just loaded a Defend the AO mission... half a blue move away from me are three or four 4 man pods... In a map that, unless I'm confused, isn't supposed to generally start with anything on the ground... It's the one with RNFs every turn.

What's the best way to cope with these missions (cheating? Do you just eat the heavy gimping?)? I don't want to be a permanent disadvantage on my Legendary play through. It's hard enough as it is! Any suggestions would be awesome :)

Oh, or better yet: Any ini changes I can make to help? I don't think Pavonis has given us any ini tweaks that can fix it ahead of 1.5 yet, have they?
This sounds like the haven defense from the mod "Additional Mission Types" created by Reality Machina. In Long War the retal with reinforcements every turn is the Haven Defense but it does not start with any pods already in the field. Also even if it was the supply raid mini retal that still does not start with any pods on the field. I am pretty sure this is Additional Mission Types. I had that one not too long ago today where all pods started next to each other (tough I was lucky enough that somehow they all pulled one by one).

Zork
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:58 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Zork » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:56 pm

What means AO? When you defend a communication relay, it's right like describe OP, I find those missions rather difficult if I bother save all rebels not just save the relay and kill all aliens. I don't think noise will be enough to attract them to the squad because they have probably a priority target to reach and destroy the relay. So I can't find another way than rush and take risks and wounds.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)

Steve-O
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:00 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Steve-O » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:38 pm

Zork wrote:What means AO?
AO is "Area of Operations." Basically, the tactical map for this mission. Bradford will often refer to it as "the AO" in his little speeches, so sometimes we do, too. :)

Phrozehn
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Phrozehn » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:15 pm

This sounds like the haven defense from the mod "Additional Mission Types" created by Reality Machina. In Long War the retal with reinforcements every turn is the Haven Defense but it does not start with any pods already in the field. Also even if it was the supply raid mini retal that still does not start with any pods on the field. I am pretty sure this is Additional Mission Types. I had that one not too long ago today where all pods started next to each other (tough I was lucky enough that somehow they all pulled one by one).
Unfortunately I haven't had AMT installed since I started playing LW. This has the normal Haven defense RNFs each turn as usual. AMT would have me with random rookies spawns no ever few turns, and it's reinforcements didn't come down every single turn.

Zork
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:58 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Zork » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:17 pm

Steve-O wrote:
Zork wrote:What means AO?
AO is "Area of Operations." Basically, the tactical map for this mission. Bradford will often refer to it as "the AO" in his little speeches, so sometimes we do, too. :)
Ha thanks, so it doesn't define the mission type.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)

Swiftless
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Swiftless » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:10 pm

I haven't had anything start off on the ground but I have had a 4 pod drop on the start of the mission before. It went something like 4-4-5-5 for the RNF drops, which is the known bug for that mission.

Seems like some sort of bug or mod conflict causing the pods to be there at the start. I might recommend a saves backup and clean install to make sure you don't have anything odd going on with previously installed mods.

Exquisitor
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 4:50 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Exquisitor » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Not sure which mission type you're referring to. There are several that involve resistance workers. Is it the one where you have to destroy the Advent relay in order to stop the near constant flow of reinforcements? That one starts with Advent on the field, the number defined by the usual terminology (Light, Moderate, etc.), you win by destroying the relay or evacuating your haven workers ahead of being swamped. I believe this one has the bad reinforcement schedule.

Or maybe you're referring to the one where the Advent are out to destroy your relay? That one has Advent on the ground, but a set number of reinforcements arrive based on how long it takes you to clean up the ground forces.

Evac your resistance workers? There are three others of these. One is where you have to round up your spread out resistance workers in 4-5 turns else you get swamped by advent. This one doesn't start with Advent on the ground. Another is where you have to move as a group to evac point and first evac your resistance workers and then 4 turns later evac your troops. This one has Advent forces on the ground, with waves of reinforcements pretty much following the schedule (2, 3, 4...) Third is the one where you have to "defend" your relay by killing all advent to stop their call for reinforcements.

merkmerk
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:29 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by merkmerk » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:23 pm

Nah I've had this happen too

Spam RNF retal missions with a pod already on the map for some reason.

Those retals suck so much ass - I understand the whole " supposed to feel punishing and make you lose rebels" thing, but as it turns out presenting players with missions that have no possibility for a happy ending really isn't good game design

Plus the whole 'rebels just sit there like idiots until you get close to them' is such a miserable mechanic

Zork
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:58 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Zork » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:34 pm

At Easy I always could save them all except for the mission XCOM2 like, and a few mech. Each time it's epic so those missions look cool for me, but I agree ensure bad end at end of mission (higher difficulty) and then it's hardly satisfying missions, it would be a bit like if no matter the mission there would be one or two dead soldiers.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)

Phrozehn
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Phrozehn » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:27 am

To be clear it's a full Haven retal. I've had a pod or two on the grading for retaliations where you defend the AO for 5 turns before you can evac. If this is not a LW2 bug what could it be? I don't have any mods that mess with pods.

tracktwo
Long War Dev
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:43 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by tracktwo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:40 am

There should never be any pods on the map for defend missions where there is a timer before the evac zone appears. If this happens to you, please send me a link to a save, preferably one in the geoscape before the mission starts. My guess is a mod conflict of some kind, though, or stale INI files, as this is not something any of our internal playtesters have ever seen.

aedn
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:12 am

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by aedn » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:31 am

Phrozehn wrote:To be clear it's a full Haven retal. I've had a pod or two on the grading for retaliations where you defend the AO for 5 turns before you can evac. If this is not a LW2 bug what could it be? I don't have any mods that mess with pods.
The only retaliation where you encounter aliens on the ground in the first turn, is the tier 2 haven defense where you need to rescue rebels, and advent are running around shooting them. You can encounter multiple pods on the first move, but its very rare. I have noticed that it seems to happen to me more often on the desert/arid haven defense map.

Zork
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:58 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Zork » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:54 am

Just get a protect convoy retal where pods was thrown per 2: 2, none, 2, none, 2.
NOT a tactical/strategy expert player, playing LW2 at Easy. Rather old so I appreciate not be bothered by excessive familiarity, I'm not your friend and will never be. Refuse to learn English well so don't attempt learn it to me, thank you. :-)

Phrozehn
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Phrozehn » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:23 pm

tracktwo wrote:There should never be any pods on the map for defend missions where there is a timer before the evac zone appears. If this happens to you, please send me a link to a save, preferably one in the geoscape before the mission starts. My guess is a mod conflict of some kind, though, or stale INI files, as this is not something any of our internal playtesters have ever seen.
Thanks for the response track. I may have a save. I'm not sure if it's on the geoscape. That save was just an auto save and I decided to just brute force it along with teleporting to save 4 rebels as I felt this wasn't as intended at all :p managed to destroy the first 16 with no wounds thanks to a perfect rocket and couple grenades... th n the rnfs just totally prevented me from fairly getting any rebels lol. I'll see if I can send you a link to the saves tomorrow after work.

If it is stale config files with some old mods interfering will simply deleting the config and loading the game with the base game launcher be enough to prevent from happening again?

tracktwo
Long War Dev
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:43 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by tracktwo » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:22 am

If it's stale configs then deleting all the config files and relaunching should do it, yeah.

LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by LordYanaek » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:48 am

Zork wrote:Just get a protect convoy retal where pods was thrown per 2: 2, none, 2, none, 2.
As far as i know it's working as intended. I didn't have any Supply Raid in my 1.3-1.4 campaign (no supply job in non liberated regions) but in my 1.2 campaign i also had 2 drops every other turn.

Haan
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:35 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Haan » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:42 pm

Just had something similar, started out just fine I thought, four turns till evac could start, started moving around to find civilians who were surprisingly close to the starting point. May have popped one pod as well, shit got so hectic after a couple of turns

Then the reinforcements started popping in, every single turn, getting stronger and more numerous with every turn. When my five survivors and 1 civvie got flown out of there the AI had spawned 43 enemies. That's after six or seven turns, meaning I needed to kill at least six enemies on average regardless of where they spawned (hint, not in the open right next to my overwatching soldiers).

This mission wasn't about me losing a mission, this was about trapping whatever units I sent in so I'd lose soldiers and valuable materials. As far as I'm concerned shit is broken.

hamds28
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:36 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by hamds28 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:52 am

My retals have never had any pre-existing pods. One RNF every turn, scaling up in numbers and difficulty. I've handled two of them just fine, but both times I was lucky enough to have my absolute A team on them.

I do think that they are either too demanding, or the format and objectives not communicated well enough. It's a hard DPS check, and the difference between okay, hard and impossible is very narrow, due to the cascading failure when you can't kill stuff fast enough.

I use a lot of rangers, and mix OW rangers with infantry, and in that campaign I was trialing OW specialists. I had DFA snipers with Long Watch, a monstrous high aim Traverse Fire gunner, and a high mobility assault to handle faceless transformations. I daresay that is rather close to optimal for a mission of this format.

Even then, the action economy was very tight. In comparison to most other missions, this particular mission was much harder. I think the "save who you can" aspect would be good to emphasize. It definitely is doable with a suboptimal team if the player is prepared to accept partial success.

LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by LordYanaek » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:01 pm

hamds28 wrote: I think the "save who you can" aspect would be good to emphasize. It definitely is doable with a suboptimal team if the player is prepared to accept partial success.
I think this is (a large) part of the issue. Most players come to those missions with the objective to save everyone. Sometimes it's possible, other times it's not. In my experience (on Commander), it's possible with a good team to wait 1 turn after the evac zone appeared to wait for a late rebel (and the soldier who dashed all the way to grab him), but rarely 2 turns (or you have to expect to take heavy wounds and maybe loose someone). If you haven't found every rebel when the timer is 1 turn before evac, it just means you won't get them in time and you should regroup to evac.
Haan wrote:As far as I'm concerned shit is broken.
Yes it is, and will be fixed for 1.5. :
johnnylump wrote:- Fix bug causing forced reinforcement missions (haven defense, supply convoy) to use the wrong reinforcement rules leading to much more difficult reinforcements.
Until then, if you really find one of those mission to be impossible, just use the console to kill a few aliens and bring the difficulty closer to what it should be.

Note that the bug only affects the pure RNF retaliation, not the retaliation with pods already in place.
If you have both pods already on the map and RNF each turn, then it's another bug that might be caused by bad config (try resetting your config files) or mod conflict. I'm not sure pre-placed pods on RNF retaliation have ever been confirmed as a real LW2 bug (but i don't read every bug report).

stefan3iii
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:49 am

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by stefan3iii » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:24 pm

The 5 turn haven evac missions CAN be won consistently, I've never lost a soldier or rebel on them in almost 2 entire 1.4 L/I playthroughs. You do however need a good strategy. You need to bring soldiers that can clear the enemies as they spawn, and you need a couple of fast scouts to gather up civvies.

For scouts I like to use fast shinobis or SPARKs. Sparks because they have Overdrive. On turn one, you start sprinting your scouts in two opposite directions, towards the ends of the map. Don't waste too much time picking up rebels near the starting area, let your other slow xcom members get them. Your fast scouts job is to pick up the rebels that are further away from evac.

The rest of your team focuses on killing the spawns. I like to bring a sharpshooter or two, and camp near the evac. They're likely able to hit enemies regardless of where they spawn. Otherwise, any high damage classes work well. Rangers, assaults, MSGT gunners. I generally have shredders on everyone to maximize my alpha strikes.

Most of the time I'm finishing the level on turn 5-7 with all rebels evacced.

Psieye
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:27 am

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Psieye » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:53 pm

I had the luxury of a Resistance Mec and landing a Full Override on something on the one Haven Evac mission I've experienced in Commander. Actually the real luxury was the spider suit snipers who could quickly see where I didn't need to send my fast guys. I brought some Squaddie assault with armour - the plan was to Threat Assessment then Medical Protocol if said assault tagged a Faceless. Expendable fast soldiers are big for scouting and I'm happy to use the first couple of rebels to further scout the map too.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd

LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by LordYanaek » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:39 am

stefan3iii wrote:The 5 turn haven evac missions CAN be won consistently, I've never lost a soldier or rebel on them in almost 2 entire 1.4 L/I playthroughs. You do however need a good strategy. You need to bring soldiers that can clear the enemies as they spawn, and you need a couple of fast scouts to gather up civvies.
Skill and a good team are probably big factors but i still think you need a bit of luck, or at least avoid bad luck regarding map generation to save every rebel. I've had one such retal where the evac spawned in one corner and 2 rebels were in the opposite corner with some cliffs along the way preventing straight dash. My fastest soldier started moving towards that opposite corner at the start of the mission but by the time he reached the last rebel, the timer was already close to completion and they had to make it back all the way. I tried to wait as long as i could with the squad, taking wounds in the process but had to evac when one of my guys was critically wounded, forcing another soldier to pick him up. In the end, the shinobi made it back but not the rebels.

aedn
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:12 am

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by aedn » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:29 pm

LordYanaek wrote:
stefan3iii wrote:The 5 turn haven evac missions CAN be won consistently, I've never lost a soldier or rebel on them in almost 2 entire 1.4 L/I playthroughs. You do however need a good strategy. You need to bring soldiers that can clear the enemies as they spawn, and you need a couple of fast scouts to gather up civvies.
Skill and a good team are probably big factors but i still think you need a bit of luck, or at least avoid bad luck regarding map generation to save every rebel. I've had one such retal where the evac spawned in one corner and 2 rebels were in the opposite corner with some cliffs along the way preventing straight dash. My fastest soldier started moving towards that opposite corner at the start of the mission but by the time he reached the last rebel, the timer was already close to completion and they had to make it back all the way. I tried to wait as long as i could with the squad, taking wounds in the process but had to evac when one of my guys was critically wounded, forcing another soldier to pick him up. In the end, the shinobi made it back but not the rebels.
Pretty much my experience. I don't build spider suits so that might give another movement option. Overall with 2 shinobis getting rebels and a 6 man overwatch/dps squad killing aliens, I find I tend to lose some rebels about 40% of the time. This is largely due to rebel placement on the map, and random reinforcement drops that can scale to large numbers due to the bug.

Phrozehn
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: Coping with wildly unbalanced Haven Retals ahead of 1.5?

Post by Phrozehn » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:14 pm

Oh, these rentals are the easiest, aside from Supply Retals. I love em. Super easy to do well. Just not if there's a bug plopping 16 units in a clump one blue move from evac. It's got to be a config mess. Need to delete the folder and hopefully I'll never see it again and they go back to smooth sailing lol.

Post Reply