Some arguing about infiltration

[Zork]

I never played LW1 so I can't compare but if I understand well it's new stuff added by LW2.

Firstly Infiltration system is brilliant from various aspects, for example:
- The base with Havens to setup a light 4X layout, much more smart than multiplying XCOM bases.
- A cool tool for player to manage itself difficulty along a campaign play.

Now, in my opinion and for my tastes the current design is unballanced favoring too much 2 elements I don't like:
- Stealth mission because they'll require one or two soldiers and much shorter infiltration time.
- Smallest possible team, typically past pure stealth missions, team of 4 or 5 is heavily encouraged.

The problem with infiltration mechanism is everything favor smallest teams and as many stealth missions than possible. Smaller team means:
- Shorter infiltration time, so better rendering of soldiers time, so faster level up.
- Shorter infiltration time, so better rendering of soldiers time, so more soldiers available and easier management of wounds.
- Better infiltration level, so not harder mission.

That design is too much unbalanced and favors tiny squads and maximum number of stealth missions.

And common Stealh gameplay is nowhere great, just compare with Invisible Inc and you know stealth design in XCOM2 is full of flaws. So at end it's quite negative that infiltration favors it.

[nmkaplan]

You weren't around for 1.2, in which ALL missions were 2-man stealth missions except for 10-man supply raids and HQ assaults. Compared to that, 1.4 is a huge improvement. At the time, there were lots of threads complaining about how there was no room for 4-6 man missions. Most agreed that "XCOM stealth" was not really the way the game was fun or meant to be played and Invisible Inc was mentioned many times in the same context you mention it.

I disagree that stealth is heavily encouraged in 1.4. You can do a couple missions on a low timer that way, but it's dangerous.

Remember the Large Squad Infiltrations perk available in the GTS. It allows you to bring larger squads on GOPs. Pretty damn useful.

You mention some things you don't like about infil, but you don't say anything about what you would rather see other than 4-6 man missions. More 8-10 man missions? More 6-7 man missions?

I personally think 4-6 soldiers is where the game shines.

[Zork]

From let's plays, I think all was rather old so perhaps started in February, that was 1.3? I remind some that seem mention 1.3.

For 1.4 it could be improved the rules are still favoring on all aspects minimum squad sizes:
- Number of missions done.
- Management of wounded.
- Number of soldiers to equip.
- XP increase rate.

That's just huge and be able to do more missions with more soldiers changes nothing to that.

One example, share XP between soldiers in mission, instead it could fixed amount of XP per soldier, so the more soldiers in mission the more XP the player globally get, this could balance the infiltration time lost for more soldiers. Another example would be that much more missions shouldn't be doable with one man stealth, or even that only specific stealth types missions could be done with 1-2 soldiers.

Now to be clear it's not my own experience of play, but at Easy. At Easy I just do what I want, well first parts was still a bit too many 5/6 soldiers missions which was disappointing after the first mission with many soldiers. But gradually I could do most missions with at least 6, often 7 and sometimes 8. And later most with 8. Ok but that doesn't change the rules favor a lot minimize squad sizes.

EDIT:
Yeah 4-6 soldiers is the XCOM1&2 choice, not X-COM and LW2 seem not too, and myself beside managing their equipments each time, I find big squads missions much more fun from any point of view, play and let's play (for let's play stealth missions are pure boredom once you have seen a few).

[Steve-O]

I think stealth is right were it should be in 1.4. That is to say, it CAN be done, but it's not EASY. In 1.2, stealthing was SO EASY that it was basically the default play style, as nmkaplan suggests. There were relatively few mission types where stealthing over to the objective, grabbing it and then evacing post-haste was not the obvious strategy, and it carried with it all the issues you mention in your OP.

Now, in 1.4, it's a much better idea to use Stealthing for some basic recon. Set up an ambush on the first pod you find and then blast your way from there to the objective. Watch out for RNF. Maybe continue using your shinobi or Phantom sharpshooter as a forward stealth scout, but only if you can afford not to have their gun/sword in the fight.

You can try to pull pods one at a time with the right squad composition, too, but that's something you choose to build for, not something you automatically do because it's clearly the best way. There are other strategies as well, and this is where Long War has always appealed to me - it gives you options without making one thing obviously best, so you can choose the way you want to play. If you want to play stealthy and build your teams to that end, it is certainly possible in 1.4, however, it's not the only way.

I've been playing relatively low stealth this campaign. Actually, I was forced to play even less stealthy than I wanted to because suppressors have been scarce all campaign long, so a small team of snipers was infeasible. But things have been working just fine. I don't feel like I'm missing anything or playing sub-optimally because I lack stealth capabilities. I just bring larger squads (usually maxing out the slots available on most missions without worrying about infil time) and it's been a blast. I ignore the missions with timers that are too low to get sufficient infil.

I agree that the stealth mechanics in XCOM2 are not on par with Invisible, Inc. Nor should they be, since XCOM2 is not a stealth game. Stealthing is a feature here, but not a core mechanic. LW2 still has its share of flaws and balancing issues to be addressed, but I honestly like stealth exactly where it is right now.

[WarChicken]

I'll be the one with the differing opinion. Let me show you why I think the current system is fine.

You are right, the infiltration system favours small squads. Even worse - it favours small squads with little equipment.

But if you play by those rules or not is entirely up to you.

If you like large squads, hell, send in the troops and go into your average mission with 8 Soldiers.
Yes, it will get harder and you'll face a lot more enemies, because you only infiltrated to say 50%, but you have a lot more soldiers and most probably well equipped ones, too, at your disposal to deal with that bigger thread.

More enemies to kill also means more xp for the guys taking them out, so here the argument goes both ways as well.

There are only two things that really stand against using large squads too often:
The mission timer - I recommend not bringing large squads to underinfiltrated missions on Smash&Grabs for example because if you get bogged down, you can quickly run out of turns.

The number of available soldiers. If you use big squads on 3 Missions simultaneously, you're mostly out of soldiers when the next mission pops up. If that is an important one and you are out of recruits (or supplies to recruit 'em) you've got a little problem and can only hope to discover it again soon.

So in the end it's up to you how you distribute your soldiers.

And if you don't like the stealth system, there are quite a few Mods out there, that build upon and enhance it:
SpecOps Combat knives lets you equip your soldiers with Combat knives that allow for a silent takedown which - if done right - doesn't break cover.
True Concealment only starts the mission timers once your cover breaks
Tactical Suppressors lets you kill enemies without breaking cover IF you kill them with one attack and have a suppressor attached to your gun. And if you don't overdo it. if you kill 5 enemies per Turn, they will get on to you eventually.

Give it a try! It's really neat and enhances the stealth system really nicely.

[Zork]

I think stealth is right were it should be in 1.4. That is to say, it CAN be done, but it's not EASY.

I didn't quote the long explanation, well Im' not really convinced, I feel most arguments are more that it's possible not bother with doing Stealth mission. But it's not my point.

Then there's the arguing that the math behind the rules is countered by the reality and difficulty to do full stealth missions since 1.4. On that I can't argue because the sighting totally exasperates me. And the only single full stealth mission I achieved was an opportunity more than an objective and with a team of at least 6, probably 7, and free multiple rebels. So a lot of luck.

My opinion would be more that the math of the rules are wrong. The cause is mission XP (not kills) is static and shouldn't, time is too much a key and just ignore infiltration is defeating the idea of its design.

I agree that the stealth mechanics in XCOM2 are not on par with Invisible, Inc. Nor should they be, since XCOM2 is not a stealth game. Stealthing is a feature here, but not a core mechanic. LW2 still has its share of flaws and balancing issues to be addressed, but I honestly like stealth exactly where it is right now.

Alas LW2 is also a stealth game. I'll take two basic examples:
- Civil can be hidden 3 squares away behind an non large obstacle and reveal if you don't bother check if you can move behind an obstacle to be sure there's no civil. The problem is check that is total boredom gameplay.
- Drone can have a totally absurd range, you have no chance to see them in advance even with a cautious blue move using obstacle, and it just rely on sheer luck. Tedious.

[Zork]

I'll be the one with the differing opinion. Let me show you why I think the current system is fine.

You are right, the infiltration system favours small squads. Even worse - it favours small squads with little equipment.

But if you play by those rules or not is entirely up to you.

If you like large squads, hell, send in the troops and go into your average mission with 8 Soldiers.
Yes, it will get harder and you'll face a lot more enemies, because you only infiltrated to say 50%, but you have a lot more soldiers and most probably well equipped ones, too, at your disposal to deal with that bigger thread.

I already answered this, buy any single equipment for any single soldier is disfavoring bigger squads because of infiltration system.

More enemies to kill also means more xp for the guys taking them out, so here the argument goes both ways as well.

Mission XP isn't shared among soldiers then favor small team? But ok for the number of enemies thing.

And if you don't like the stealth system, there are quite a few Mods out there, that build upon and enhance it:
SpecOps Combat knives lets you equip your soldiers with Combat knives that allow for a silent takedown which - if done right - doesn't break cover.
True Concealment only starts the mission timers once your cover breaks
Tactical Suppressors lets you kill enemies without breaking cover IF you kill them with one attack and have a suppressor attached to your gun. And if you don't overdo it. if you kill 5 enemies per Turn, they will get on to you eventually.

Give it a try! It's really neat and enhances the stealth system really nicely.

Well have you played Invisible Inc? I don't like Stealth game in general, it's a gameplay involving a lot less mechanism and elements than combats. Pick all the games ever released and then sum the number of skills working with combats with the number of skills working with stealth, you'll certainly get a proportion of 1/50 in favor of combats. Stealth just can't offer the same gameplay depth and diversity than combats.

And then there's a few game, myself I see only Invisible Inc for turn based aspect, that makes wonder if it's not just because it's not been targeted well enough yet. I doubt but anyway it's not XCOM2 or LW2 stealth that changes anything.

In XCOM2 it's not a problem at least for release version, Stealth was only a mechanism to add some diversity and speed up first exploration phase. So in XCOM2 Stealth isn't stealth. LW2 made the design error, in my point of view, to extend the stealth gameplay and make it more pertinent. Ok but then the stealth really need benefit of a gmaeplay design quality at level of an Invisible Inc.

And all of that doesn't change the point that rules around infiltration favor too much small or tiny squads. Ok you get a half point with XP and number of enemies.

[Steve-O]

Alas LW2 is also a stealth game. I'll take two basic examples:
- Civil can be hidden 3 squares away behind an non large obstacle and reveal if you don't bother check if you can move behind an obstacle to be sure there's no civil. The problem is check that is total boredom gameplay.
- Drone can have a totally absurd range, you have no chance to see them in advance even with a cautious blue move using obstacle, and it just rely on sheer luck. Tedious.

These exact things are examples of why LW2 is NOT a stealth game. I agree these things are tedious and it's frustrating when a civvie blows your cover because he started 3 spaces away, behind a tree where no one could see him. But this is precisely my point: if the game were intended to be played stealthily, then it would include mechanics to manage these situations - without repeated save-scumming - in order to keep it fun and engaging.

The reason the game design does not give you those tools is precisely because it's not a stealth game. You're not supposed to sneak all the way to the objective, and it was a mistake that it was so easy to do so in earlier versions (which is also why it was corrected to make it not so easy.) Concealment is meant to be blown, and you're meant to fight your way in and out under pressure from reinforcements. That's guerilla tactics, which is what this game is supposed to be. This is why enemy sight lines are 360, instead of a cone in the direction they're facing. This is why you get overwatch from concealment instead of the ability to sneak up behind a trooper and stab him in the back.

Like I said before, you CAN play stealth if you want to, but you have to build for it. If you let go of the stealth idea and just accept that your soldiers will be revealed sooner or later, the game is still perfectly beatable, and much less frustrating in the process.