Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

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crimsonsun
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:27 pm

Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by crimsonsun »

So I keep laying down Killzone and finding it not activate or activate at one target and no one else. By the description and its high lvl status I was under the impression it should activation against every target that moves or attacks within the Zone or enters it as long as I have ammo to make the shot. In multiple attempts with different builds and different weapons I've never got more than a single shot off using it despite having multiple targets activate move and/or attack starting in the Zone when I was freshly reloaded normally with a expanded magazine.

The only possible thing I can think of is it reduces weapon range in some fashion (I could shoot multiple targets when the zone is placed normally prior to pod activation) to a AoE smaller than the Killzone template or maybe its something to do with height and level as I'm normally positioned above my targets where possible.

Just last night I had a Gunner with a Mag Cannon, with a elite expanded Magazine, a elite hair trigger, cool under pressure, Covering Fire (AWC), shredder, shredder Ammo, Combat Awareness & Centre Mass place Killzone on a yet to activate full squad of 8+ Advent troopers on patrol during a material assault mission with the whole squad in the AoE and LoS, yet not a single shot was fired when they activated. Either I'm doing something wrong or this isn't working? :?

What's worse is I've just levelled some rangers swapping out my go to build rapid reaction overwatch which combines nicely with ever vigilant for Killzone and Rapid Fire so I can be more aggressive with them but if I can't get Kill zone to kick in I've got to consider I've fucked up and I might as well have just taken combat fitness like I used to. :o

Thanks for your help; crimsonsun
Steelflame
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:35 pm

Re: Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by Steelflame »

Here is a few things you should know about Overwatch shots in general.

1. They only go off if a target moves more than 2 continuous tiles INSIDE the Overwatch zone.
2. Killzone still obeys LoS, it just lets you do it at Squadsight range. Make sure that the soldier using KZ has full LoS within said zone. Enemies can see your LoS triggers for OW, and will prefer to utilize them to avoid the shots. Remember, just because your SQUAD can see the entire area, doesn't mean your soldier can. Any tall full cover can easily block out a large area. Trees are really bad about it.
3. A variety of enemies have Shadowstep, just like your Shinobis can. Sidewinders stand out as one of them because they have it innately, although there are a few Advent ones that also have it. If you try to Killzone a full Advent 8 man pod, there is a high chance you'll have at least 2-3 have it in the late game.
4. Overwatch shots in general will absolutely refuse to trigger on a 0% shot. If you are using one of the PCS you can make in the Avenger that decides OW shot takes, this can be up to a 75% minimum before it would try to fire. While normally a good thing for Rapid Reaction's sake, this can bite you in the rear with Killzone as you don't care as much about missed shots. Remember that not all weapons have good aim at squadsight ranges as well (Hello Cannons. Hell. I hate cannons. Such terrible range bands on them makes them a PITA to use), so this can easily kick in at long range. Combo that with innate defense, and you can easily see why a shot would refuse to fire at times.
JulianSkies
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by JulianSkies »

Also remember that while Killzone states that it can execute Longwatch shots without requiring Longwatch... It still requires Squadsight to fire at squadsight range.
Alketi
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:11 pm

Re: Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by Alketi »

You can't have an enemy start at the edge square of a killzone and subsequently run out, as steelflame mentioned.

I had filed a bug report. The issue is explained and illustrated here: http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... 269#p45751

This has been this way since vanilla, but wasn't obvious because the cone size at squadsight expands to the point that it was far less likely to have enemies on at the edges.
Psieye
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:27 am

Re: Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by Psieye »

I would be saying you're doing it wrong and you should be putting the zone down where the pod WILL be, not where they currently are. But I'm finding I'm not picking Killzone because Threat Assessment + Ever Vigilant + Rapid Reaction + pulling from squadsight already lets me take plenty of OW shots with a GSGT ranger while being mobile. A gunner can (after a pod activates then has a turn to converge) move and area suppress to get about the same number of reaction shots as a really well placed Killzone could.

There's probably some really convoluted way of making it amazing. Like Spider suit's grapple hook to move close without using an action.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
lumber-chick
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:03 pm

Re: Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by lumber-chick »

FWIW had exact same issues with killzone. Some of the statemenrs above seem incorrect. It's enough to move 2 tiles to trigger OW shot, not _ more_ than 2 tiles. Also the problem isnt squadsight, it's simply 0 triggers on large squads at medium range.

It could be that a combination of enough tiles moved + other soldiers shoot first + no OW trigger + LOS blockers lead to this situation.

Either way - bug or incredibly hard to get value from - killzone is largely useless at the moment.
crimsonsun
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by crimsonsun »

Steelflame wrote:Here is a few things you should know about Overwatch shots in general.

1. They only go off if a target moves more than 2 continuous tiles INSIDE the Overwatch zone.
This is my most likely issue I didn't realise that, though from what I've now read it seems a unit needs to move though a tile within line of sight and must move more than a single square.
Alketi wrote:You can't have an enemy start at the edge square of a killzone and subsequently run out, as steelflame mentioned.

I had filed a bug report. The issue is explained and illustrated here: http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... 269#p45751

This has been this way since vanilla, but wasn't obvious because the cone size at squadsight expands to the point that it was far less likely to have enemies on at the edges.
Thanks that thread pretty much explained my exact issue and what I was doing wrong, I agree I think the description is very misleading and while I see it follows the rules of Overwatch in general those rules aren't exactly clearly laid out anywhere and normally traits/skills create exceptions to rules where they say otherwise so by it saying any movement or attack in the zone triggers the Kill zone its a lie, what it means is a Killzone is trigger when overwatch is provoked by movement or attacks made from within the zone. Though that description would still lead to confusion if the Overwatch rules were unknown, but at least you'd as a player have a solid point of reference from where to track down what's going on.

Being as I have invested into Killzone I'll try to get more out of it (I could respec if it comes to it) and look at where targets are likely to move rather than simply what's within the zone. I used the exploding drone ability to trigger the Pod so all targets were disorientated and scrambling for cover generally backwards or away from my squad so its likely they simply left the killzone.

Regarding Sidewinders, I've been very impressed by how well the AI uses them early during a turn to go after my overwatch guys, it can be a real pain to deal with when you can't get a good shot off on them prior to your turn.

I can't imagine how good Killzone would be with a Sniper Rifle, I've not played a single hour of vanilla Xcom2 I brought it solely for use playing long war 2 following my enjoyment of Long War compared to Xcom. That being said Aggression + bring them on + Precision shot + elite laser sight + double tap is simply horrific already.

Thanks for all the responses seems I've been doing it wrong.. :D
Psieye
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:27 am

Re: Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by Psieye »

Vanilla XCOM 2 showed you where the RNF was going to drop (as does Rookie LW2). You'd just paint the zone on that and the whole RNF would die to one sniper. In LW2, Serial + Bunker Buster (or a more elaborate setup) does that instead.

As for LW2 killzone, I'd say activating a large pod (or 2!) at squadsight while your killzone guy is just outside vision range might be worth trying. The pod knows where the snipe shot came from so (provided the pod sees nobody) you know what direction they'll run after they're done scampering.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
lumber-chick
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:03 pm

Re: Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by lumber-chick »

crimsonum, well put on the unclear mechanics. There is quite a bit of that in LW2, but it's nothing to be angry at, since it's a monumental task to define all these details in the UI etc.

One hint: use .ini to set respect time to 0, respec the soldier, bring it back. Makes no sense to sacrifice a soldier because a mechanic isn't explained well.
Alketi
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:11 pm

Re: Killzone bugged or am I doing something wrong.

Post by Alketi »

Well, very interesting that Firaxis seems to have fixed all of the OW behavioral issues identified in this thread by some of us and tracktwo. A coincidence? Hmm...

So, apparently in WOTC you can trigger OW by moving a single step and also by breaking LOS and by being at the edge of LOS. There's a mod to revert these changes that explains some of the new behavior: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1127539414

I presume these changes will fix the Killzone issue described in this thread. Of course, only fix it in WOTC. :)
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