My Long War of the Chosen ideas

sarge945
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My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by sarge945 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:35 pm

So, I assume this mod is eventually going to make it to War of the Chosen.

I have been thinking about the new mechanics and how they work alongside the old mechanics, and there are obviously some things that conflict - having soldiers infiltrating as well as having them tired, etc both seem to serve as a method of making soldiers that are used less frequently.

This is just my opinion, but this is how I would implement the War of the Chosen mechanics into Long War when transitioning it over

Fatigue System

Currently, the fatigue system works in that if a soldier is tired after a mission, they must take a risk if they go on another mission which could result in them gaining a negative trait. The amount of fatigue a soldier gains during a mission seems to be mostly random. I know it is based on some factors, but they are so difficult to keep track of it can seem arbitrary.

Being able to risk a soldier by taking them on a mission while tired is actually a really great system though, however it clashes with the idea of infiltrating to a degree, as both systems serve to limit the amount of missions you can send an specific soldier on.

I think both systems could be merged. Halve the time needed to infiltrate, but require all soldiers to rest for the same amount of time after each mission, or risk a negative trait.

This allows emergencies where we can take more powerful troops along for a high-value mission, while risking having to put them in the tube for 10 days, which is actually a really good mechanic and could add a lot more depth.

Secondly, by splitting the waiting time for a squad (instead of front-loading it which is what the infiltration system does), it could reduce a lot of the empty time spent waiting around, which I know BeagleRush complained about a lot, and is probably annoying for a lot of people.

So basically, instead of being:

INFILTRATE for 8 days, then do a mission, then soldiers are good to go (assuming no wounds, etc)

It would be:

INFILTRATE for 4 days, do mission, all soldiers must rest for 4 days or risk negative traits. Obviously wounded soldiers would be able to rest and heal at the same time.

Since all soldiers would be tired at the end of a mission, and for a predetermined amount of time, this would effectively make the will bar completely useless. Enter...

Stamina System

With the bar being useless, but having the UI and the framework there, it seems like such a waste to completely disable it. I would instead repurpose it. I do like the will bar and the overall system, however I would change it slightly.

I would divide the bar up into 4 sections, representing 4 stamina points for each soldier. I would add some global abilities to each soldier which use the stamina resource. For example, a "sprint" ability that would allow a soldier to take an additional move action on their turn, at the cost of 1 stamina.

For each point of stamina missing, a soldier would lose 1 mobility for the remainder of the mission. I would add a "rest" ability which uses 2 actions and totally restores stamina (and mobility) to full.

I think this would add some strategic depth to the game, and allow players to get some short term benefits with a longer-term cost.

This can leverage the existing fatigue bar, for the most part, and doesn't clash with the system already in place for limiting the use of soldiers on lots of missions.

Stamina would obviously be restored at the end of every mission.

The Resistance Factions

The resistance hero classes are pretty overpowered, to say the least. WotC seems to have been balanced around their frequent usage. Even with the fatigue system, it's usually possible to take heroes on the vast majority of missions. In a Long War environment, they would get a lot less usage, possibly only being able to be used in a small number of missions.

This may actually mitigate their overpoweredness somewhat, but it presents another balance problem - if Long War 2 missions are balanced around them, then they are effectively required all the time, and if Long War 2 missions are balanced around not having them, then they remain overpowered, even if they are used infrequently.

I think it makes more sense to balance Long War 2 around not having these hero units, and then adding in a penalty for taking them on missions. For example, I would add a 15 supplies cost per hero per mission, which could be explained as needing to move heavy and specialised equipment, which takes manpower and resources, in order to position them on the battlefield.

The reason I would do this is because it would keep them powerful but also add an incentive to not take them as often as possible, effectively providing a tradeoff between having an easier mission vs having a harder long-term strategic plan with less supplies.

The Chosen

I actually really like the way the chosen are implemented in the base game, and would like to see them appear like that as well in LWotC. However, I would make them more dynamic. In the base game, they seem to simply own a region, and never move. At least, I have never seen them move. I think it would be a good idea to send them to regions which are under threat - that is, the player is close to liberation, or is close to gaining the upper hand. I would handle the Alien Rulers the same way, have them move around to where they are needed. I don't actually know how they would fundamentally differ, though, as they just seem to be a weaker chosen in the base game.

Covert Missions

This system is fantastic and would fit into long war really well. I could see it being tied into the region management system a little more though. For example, instead of having faceless haven missions be effectively random based on the level of the haven advisor, I would instead have a covert operation, something along the lines of "Interrogations", which roots out faceless. I would have another one for tracking down Convoys (which would instantly create a convoy mission instead of having to roll the dice) etc.

The Pavinos team could do a lot with these.

Faction Orders

These are really awesome, and would fit into Long War really well. I don't see much reason to change them.


Soldier Abilities

I like the idea of ability trees, how they have effectively replaced the AWC perk system. However, the fact that every soldier can get every ability for their class does seem a little like it reduces the strategy a bit. Since the LW2 top-tier class abilities are so much better, I can also see there being balance issues as well from having many of these abilities at the same time.

I think it would make sense to limit the effectiveness of the ability system for regular soldiers. One idea might be allowing soldiers to train by putting them in the training center (2 days to train an ability) and limiting their training options to: a total of 2 additional abilities from Lieutenant level and below from within their class, plus an additional 3 randomly-selected general abilities, plus an additional 5 pistol abilities. This would keep each soldier unique, stop them getting too overpowered, and keep the pistol-training mechanic from the AWC. I would remove the AP system from vanilla WotC in LWotC2.



I would love to hear what you all think. Tell me if you think these ideas are good. Tell me if you think they are rubbish. This is just my take on things. Let me know if I missed anything.
Last edited by sarge945 on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:49 am, edited 8 times in total.

Psieye
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by Psieye » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:23 pm

sarge945 wrote: Fatigue System

This is effectively unnecessary now, since the infiltration system works as a more strategically deep method of ensuring that your A team is not taken on every single available mission. Having both systems would put soldiers out of action so frequently that it would likely upset the balance.
While I do like what you did with the stamina idea, I disagree that infiltration makes fatigue unnecessary. To minimally disrupt balance, just have fatigue take about 5 days to recover from and let it recover while a soldier is infiltrating. What this will affect is retals, low-infiltration rampages and really long missions that drain will (HQ). It's enough that I get to keep bleeding-edge equipment used more often by under infiltrating. Power levelling my soldiers if they return unwounded from 8-man GOps is too much. That and the negative traits gained by sending tired soldiers out is great flavour that also depends on will being reduceable to matter ("roll to resist panic when X happens").
sarge945 wrote: The Resistance Factions

The resistance hero classes are pretty overpowered, to say the least. WotC seems to have been balanced around their frequent usage. Even with the fatigue system, it's usually possible to take heroes on the vast majority of missions. In a Long War environment, they would get a lot less usage, possibly only being able to be used in a small number of missions.

This may actually mitigate their overpoweredness somewhat, but it presents another balance problem - if Long War 2 missions are balanced around them, then they are effectively required all the time, and if Long War 2 missions are balanced around not having them, then they remain overpowered, even if they are used infrequently.

I think it makes more sense to balance Long War 2 around not having these hero units, and then adding in a penalty for taking them on missions. For example, I would add a 15 supplies cost per hero per mission, which could be explained as needing to move heavy and specialised equipment, which takes manpower and resources, in order to position them on the battlefield.
This assumes you'll keep all the previous LW2 classes and just add 3 new hero classes. I don't think that's a good idea. 10 non-Rookie classes is about enough for the game, no need to add even more.

Given the impression that WotC modding will require extensive rework anyway, I'd discard the status quo with classes and design them from scratch again. The 3 hero classes fill niches already covered by LW2 classes (but not by vanilla classes). Then let's 'de-hero' them: make it affordable to get many soldiers of each hero class as soon as you make contact with their faction. This is assuming Pavonis is willing to make laser and coil versions of the hero weapons.

Reapers replace shinobi. Skirmishers replace LW rangers while picking up Fleche. Merge Technicals with Grenadiers to make space for Templars (because I like the LW Assault). That would be how I'd fit the new classes into the existing design space without expanding the class count.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd

LordYanaek
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by LordYanaek » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:43 pm

I'm going to wait until i finish my current WotC commander campaign (provided i don't loose to the Avatar project, i managed to get down to 11h on the doom countdown already :shock: ) to get a better view but from a somewhat midgame view here's my 2 cents.
  • Fatigue System
    I agree with Psieye that both systems could be used side by side to improve the balance of squad deployments. Fatigue could be higher for fighting a large number of enemies (underinfiltrated) and also higher for a very small squad (due to the stress, the fact that each soldier must do more during infiltration). 1.3 already achieved a much better balance than 1.2 had but this new mechanism could help improve it further, or balance it differently than it is now, maybe opening new options.
  • The Resistance Factions
    I really hope they don't remove existing classes. I like them all and don't find they fill the same role as the new faction soldiers.
    • Shinobis are worse scouts than reapers but much better fighters thanks to a good selection of both rifle and sword perks and some tanking ability. They are also the only LW soldier to use swords so they can't just be dropped. Maybe their scout side will have to be reworked/replaced because Reapers are just better as scouts but Reapers are not really strong when it comes to fighting itself unlike Shinobis and it becomes more apparent when you get better tech. Their rifle does little damage making them good for finishing targets only (apart from the one-trick Claymore mine), which they do nicely without revealing themselves. They are a great tool tactically but they are not Shinobis. They are the stealthy assassins i always thought Shinobis should have been but the 1.3+ Shinobis are excellent soldiers that can fill several different roles.
    • Skirmishers are not Rangers. They are mobile soldiers with several tricks up their sleeves, excellent tactical value but relatively low damage while Rangers are excellent sentries or great killing machines depending how you build them.
    • Templars are totally unique and can be tricky to play but work nicely when you can build their focus pool. They would probably be better in LW2 due to higher enemy count and more opportunities to get focus (sometimes it's hard not to kill the enemy you're trying to weaken so the Templar can finish it :roll: )
    • The Technical and Grenadier might be merged into a single class to make some room, keeping an "explosive" tree for both grenades and rockets (some rocket perks could be left over), a more support fire and smoke tree and a rifle tree, possibly dropping Sting grenade perk and replace it with an actual PG project to create Sting grenades that would have lower AoE than Flashbang but that would actually create a soldier with 2 different secondary weapons. I don't like the idea of giving the grenade launcher on the gunner again like Vanilla. I also think the Technical is an interesting class on his own even thought he would be better fleshed out if he was the only soldier capable of equipping EXO/War but could also use Shredder (and it would solve the issue of Shredder spam).
    That being said, 13 classes (including Spark) might be a bit too much so maybe some will have to drop but not sure which one. I also like the idea of making the "hero" classes more affordable but you can already have several in WotC (i now have 2 Reapers) from Covert Ops. Those could simply be more common in LW2 to allow us a bigger pool of those "heroes" who are really not OP compared to normal soldiers (especially once you start training them in the Training Center) but different and with unusual tactical options. Still, in a LW2 environment, you'll probably want more than 2 of each.
  • The Chosen
    Agreed that with the much more dynamic ADVENT in LW2, the Chosen could also be improved. Tying them to Vigilance, limiting the number of missions on which they can appear, having them actually attempt military operations with their own troops rather than just random background activities would probably make them more lively.
  • Covert Missions
    They could be an excellent way to uncover supply convoy missions and UFO missions. With a larger number of soldiers and higher chance of "ambush" output, they could also open new opportunities for small squads engagements on smaller Guerilla Ops. The possibilities are limitless, including maybe upgrades to the Ring allowing more than 1 slot for Covert ops (but only 1/faction). This could open options to mitigate the strategic RNG : i really need some Alloy/Elerium but RNG doesn't spawn any Smash and Grab mission, maybe a Covert op with the Reapers can reveal one. There is certainly no shortage of possibilities there.
  • Faction Orders
    I would also love to see some XCOM specific orders appear while you reinforce the resistance (maybe tied to liberation).
  • Sitrep
    I also like those and would love to see them included/improved. They could elegantly solve some issues with specialized equipment by providing varied opposition in missions. A Sitrep could cause more MECs and make EMP/Bluescreen more attractive while another could lead to (almost) full ADVENT/Alien opposition opening new opportunities to use the specialized ammo (rather than just use the 1st one available for the +1). Those might also be tied to Chosen or local HQ (maybe the General responsible for N.A. likes MECs and the MECs sitrep is much more likely there). This would create more diversity to missions because the same GOp in N.A. or New Brazil won't play the same.
  • New maps
    I like how they added new Environments but i think it could be better used than just randomly appear on a number of missions. The Tunnels maps are interesting with a lot of LoS blockers making some classes like Assaults more useful while the good old DfA Sniper will suck. It would be nice if we had some ways of knowing before the mission where it will/is likely to take place so we could build various squads specialized to fight in different environments.
    The "contaminated" environment is also a great idea underused. I think it would add a lot of strategic depths if different regions had different levels of xeno-contamination. Maybe it's really high in New India but almost non-existent in New Arctic. If those maps offered modified combat rules (which could probably be handled with Sitrep) it would give Havens/Region more "personality" rather than just be a bunch of numbers where number of Rebels is the good number and Strength the bad number. Maybe the level of xeno-contamination could also modify the missions that could spawn (or how likely they are) with Havens in xeno-contaminated regions being less likely to be targetted by retaliations (ADVENT doesn't look for humans hiding there) but less productive or creating harder missions.
  • Training Center/Ability Points
    This one might be a big issue in LW2, imagine some of the LW2 classes with multiple perks/level. Not sure how it can be kept (it's an interesting mechanism) without creating totally overpowered soldiers that would put the hero classes to shame.

sarge945
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by sarge945 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:46 pm

LordYanaek wrote: [*]New maps
I like how they added new Environments but i think it could be better used than just randomly appear on a number of missions. The Tunnels maps are interesting with a lot of LoS blockers making some classes like Assaults more useful while the good old DfA Sniper will suck. It would be nice if we had some ways of knowing before the mission where it will/is likely to take place so we could build various squads specialized to fight in different environments.
The "contaminated" environment is also a great idea underused. I think it would add a lot of strategic depths if different regions had different levels of xeno-contamination. Maybe it's really high in New India but almost non-existent in New Arctic. If those maps offered modified combat rules (which could probably be handled with Sitrep) it would give Havens/Region more "personality" rather than just be a bunch of numbers where number of Rebels is the good number and Strength the bad number. Maybe the level of xeno-contamination could also modify the missions that could spawn (or how likely they are) with Havens in xeno-contaminated regions being less likely to be targetted by retaliations (ADVENT doesn't look for humans hiding there) but less productive or creating harder missions.
I like this idea.

I think there should be a brief rundown of the type of biome the generated map will be in the info screen when infiltrating, definitely.

As for xeno-infection, I would love to see the chance of having lost spawn tied to the environments as well.

Less habitable environments could yield less resources and less missions, but also be less likely to be invaded and allow more safety while doing covert ops.
LordYanaek wrote:[*]Training Center/Ability Points
This one might be a big issue in LW2, imagine some of the LW2 classes with multiple perks/level. Not sure how it can be kept (it's an interesting mechanism) without creating totally overpowered soldiers that would put the hero classes to shame.[/list]
Yeah the final abilities in LW2 seem to be a lot more powerful than the ones in vanilla. I also don't really like the ability system because it eventually makes every soldier of a certain class basically the same. In regular XCOM 2, your healer-specialist might be completely different to your hacker specialist in terms of abilities. In WotC I choose to just pick the best abilities and come back for the other ones when I get enough points.

I think it would be more balanced and require more strategy if the abilities system was limited to the faction classes only.

I have updated the OP with a suggestion that merges the skill trees system from WOTC with the AWC Perk system from LW2

Steelflame
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by Steelflame » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:53 pm

What I think AP would be good for is integrating into the current AWC we have in LW2.

You could have it as a required resource to pick up the abilities in the AWC (or used like intel to speed up the picking up of an ability perhaps) and potentially use it to reroll every single AWC ability there is at once that you haven't grabbed for that soldier.

This would allow you to try and roll better perks (Because lets face it, most of the time the AWC perks are trash and not worth the invested time to get them on your A team, and mostly just good for buffing up your B team).

I definately don't think that we should get the training center as is in LW2. That would just be nutzo busted OP.

LordYanaek
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by LordYanaek » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:05 pm

Steelflame wrote:What I think AP would be good for is integrating into the current AWC we have in LW2.
That's basically what it does in WotC. There is no longer an AWC, it's once again a good old Infirmary that does just that ... heal your guys. The Training Center already implements some sort of LW like AWC perks over several levels. Maybe FXS got their idea from some mod :lol:
However, as OP as it might be, i kind of like that you are able to take abilities you skipped rather than just a bunch of random stuff you might want or not. Since the amount of AP gained by every soldier is randomized (by the Combat Intelligence and the actual in-mission rolls), having to spend those points purely on random perks that might make your soldier worse (looking at you Covering Fire on non OW builds) would probably be a bit frustrating. Well, at least there are pistol perks.
I definately don't think that we should get the training center as is in LW2. That would just be nutzo busted OP.
Sniper with AMF and Double Tap/Serial
Shinobi with Reaper-Hit and Run combo plus Hunter's Instinct
Assault with Lethal Street Sweeper
yeah, that sort of OP :roll:

Maybe give the ability to learn lower level perks only, like 1/2 your actual level so a MSgt can learn every Sgt level perk if they want to but not every high level one so your MSgt Specialists can have Trojan and Medical Protocol but they won't be able to stack Full Override and Threat Assessment or your Technical won't Quick-Burn-Firestorm into Rapid Fire but he can get Burnout and Shredder.

JulianSkies
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by JulianSkies » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:02 pm

LordYanaek wrote:
Steelflame wrote:What I think AP would be good for is integrating into the current AWC we have in LW2.
That's basically what it does in WotC. There is no longer an AWC, it's once again a good old Infirmary that does just that ... heal your guys. The Training Center already implements some sort of LW like AWC perks over several levels. Maybe FXS got their idea from some mod :lol:
However, as OP as it might be, i kind of like that you are able to take abilities you skipped rather than just a bunch of random stuff you might want or not. Since the amount of AP gained by every soldier is randomized (by the Combat Intelligence and the actual in-mission rolls), having to spend those points purely on random perks that might make your soldier worse (looking at you Covering Fire on non OW builds) would probably be a bit frustrating. Well, at least there are pistol perks.
I definately don't think that we should get the training center as is in LW2. That would just be nutzo busted OP.
Sniper with AMF and Double Tap/Serial
Shinobi with Reaper-Hit and Run combo plus Hunter's Instinct
Assault with Lethal Street Sweeper
yeah, that sort of OP :roll:

Maybe give the ability to learn lower level perks only, like 1/2 your actual level so a MSgt can learn every Sgt level perk if they want to but not every high level one so your MSgt Specialists can have Trojan and Medical Protocol but they won't be able to stack Full Override and Threat Assessment or your Technical won't Quick-Burn-Firestorm into Rapid Fire but he can get Burnout and Shredder.
One thing to take into mind is that certain perks were balanced taking into account that you would never be able to pair them with other perks, since they're in the same rank.
To be honest the AP system would actually be really good in LW2 provided it gets changed somewhat, rather than allowing learning of any ability you skipped on instead it just gives it's own pool of abilities you can learn from just how the LW2's AWC works, and you spend AP in those. What it would do is make a lot more soldiers have bonus abilities since there is personal AP earned alongside global AP, however, if you instead make it so you only earn global AP (and the Hero classes are the only ones that learn personal AP and have their skill trees built based on that) that'd make the extra soldier abilities still remain a strategic resource and with the ability to assign custom points to the abilities (see the abilities that cost 25 AP) you can have some fine-tuning done there.

You could also argue that there would never be enough AP earned to have a few soldiers with good bonus abilities, since I think i'm reaching endgame on Commander and I have 125 AP (and that's with the Double AP Earned faction order in there since as far as I contacted the Templars), but LW2 has an infinity more missions, so that evens out in my opinion.

sarge945
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by sarge945 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:30 am

I updated the OP with a system where you have trees more like the lw2 awc but also gives you limited access to class abilities.

I love the discussion that's going on in this thread. So many different ways to look at mechanics.

JulianSkies, you can potentially get infinite AP by either farming the Chosen or just going actions that give you AP. There really isn't a 125 AP limit

I guess it's sort of soft limited in that if you farm too long they will finish the Avatar project, but it seems a little flimsy

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8wayz
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by 8wayz » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:07 pm

Sarge, getting ability points is not as easy as it sounds.

I am currently playing on Legendary and the Warlock decided to lead a retaliation mission. On the turn I actually activated the Warlock, on the map there were:
- 3 Berserks, almost up to full health ;
- 1 Advent MEC;
- 2 Stun Lancers;
- 1 Faceless;
- 1 Advanced Trooper;
- 1 Warlock;

That was in mid-June. I almost lost that mission and my Templar as well, due to being Mind-controlled by the Warlock.

For the whole mission I think I managed to get 10 (for the Warlock kill) + 4 ( for actions) ability points. And I almost lost a soldier in which I have invested 50+ ability points.

You really do not want to let the Chosen get stronger, as they become a lot harder, especially on Commander and Legendary. Farming them can amount to suicide depending on the mission they appear.

Another point to make is that you will need the overpowered soldiers to deal with the Chosen and their entourage. So allowing abilities on ordinary classes to be purchased with ability points is kind of necessary.

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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by wizard1200 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:10 pm

I think that the fatigue system is better than the current infiltration system.

Infiltration should work like the shadow ability of the reaper. Every character starts concealed and every turn there is a chance that a character is revealed:
- Melee attack if it kills the target, pistol attack, smg attack: 25 %
- Gremlin attack, psionic attack, sniper rifle attack, assault rifle attack, shotgun attack: 50 %
- Cannon attack, grenade launcher attack: 75 %
- Mission objective has been completed: +15 % and the detection radius of enemy units is increased by 40 %
- Character hits a wounded target and does not kill it: +10 %
- Character has the Phantom ability: -15 %
sarge945 wrote: The resistance hero classes are pretty overpowered, to say the least. WotC seems to have been balanced around their frequent usage. Even with the fatigue system, it's usually possible to take heroes on the vast majority of missions. In a Long War environment, they would get a lot less usage, possibly only being able to be used in a small number of missions.

This may actually mitigate their overpoweredness somewhat, but it presents another balance problem - if Long War 2 missions are balanced around them, then they are effectively required all the time, and if Long War 2 missions are balanced around not having them, then they remain overpowered, even if they are used infrequently.
I would remove the hero classes and use their abilities to improve the classes of LW2. For example the Grenadier could look like this:
- The environmental damage of explosive grenades should always include the Sapper perk
- Sapper should be replaced with a weaker version of Salvo (launching a damaging grenade will not cost an action)
- Center Mass should be replaced with Formidable to make the choice at that rank interesting.
- Boosted Cores should should increase the damage of explosive grenades by 25 % (rounded up) to make it useful late game.
- Formidable should be replaced with Claymore (WotC) to make the choice at that rank interesting.
- Chain Shot should be replaced with Shrapnel (WotC) to make the choice at that rank interesting.
- Bombardier and Salvo should switch the positions and Salvo should be replaced with Highlands (WotC).

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8wayz
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by 8wayz » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:52 pm

It will prohibitevily difficult to cannibalize the new classes. Most of their perks are tied to their weapon and secondary item (Ripjack, Claymore, Mag pistol).

Also Claymore (the ability) is granted by the item, not by a perk. So they will need to separate the ability from the item and create a new perk.

It will be just better to simply use them and try to balance them with the existing classes in Long War 2. Possibly merging a class or two.

The main issue with infiltration is that it makes you wait and spend a lot of downtime just looking at the watch. That was one of the gripes of Beaglerush after he quit Long War 2. Too much downtime and micromanaging squads both on the Geoscape and in the barracks.
Last edited by 8wayz on Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rfriar
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by rfriar » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:26 pm


sarge945
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by sarge945 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:28 am

rfriar wrote:Here's an idea I came up with:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Xcom/comments/ ... e_avenger/
What an interesting idea. While it is cool, and makes sense (faceless in the haven outposts, but somehow the AVENGER has none, despite extensive support staff), but it is probably too hard to implement.
wizard1200 wrote:I think that the fatigue system is better than the current infiltration system.

Infiltration should work like the shadow ability of the reaper. Every character starts concealed and every turn there is a chance that a character is revealed:
- Melee attack if it kills the target, pistol attack, smg attack: 25 %
- Gremlin attack, psionic attack, sniper rifle attack, assault rifle attack, shotgun attack: 50 %
- Cannon attack, grenade launcher attack: 75 %
- Mission objective has been completed: +15 % and the detection radius of enemy units is increased by 40 %
- Character hits a wounded target and does not kill it: +10 %
- Character has the Phantom ability: -15 %
I think the infiltration system is so well known in Long War 2 now (for better or worse) that removing it would be akin to blasphemy. Also, having a chance to be spotted kind of works for the reaper because you can remain concealed reliably and use them as a scout, plus do some damage when needed with a guarantee of not being revealed. Having that kind of randomness for the entire squad without the special reaper abilities to counteract it, seems like it would add a lot more unnecessary randomness to the game. I know XCOM is all about making the most out of random situations, but Long War 2 has already removed some of the worst random outcomes in the game (which is why when soldiers panic, they will always move or hunker, rather than shooting and killing your own guys which in vanilla is completely unacceptable as a piece of game design, since the outcome of the entire mission, and possibly campaign if one of your best guys gets panic-shot to death, can be determined by a single dice roll).

Personally I am against this kind of infiltration system. It might be cool as an alternative to regular concealment if you have a silencer equipped (chance to reveal rather than guaranteed reveal) so that occasionally you would have a cool bonus on one of your soldiers, but I wouldn't replace a somewhat deterministic system (the current infiltration system) with this.
wizard1200 wrote:
sarge945 wrote: The resistance hero classes are pretty overpowered, to say the least. WotC seems to have been balanced around their frequent usage. Even with the fatigue system, it's usually possible to take heroes on the vast majority of missions. In a Long War environment, they would get a lot less usage, possibly only being able to be used in a small number of missions.

This may actually mitigate their overpoweredness somewhat, but it presents another balance problem - if Long War 2 missions are balanced around them, then they are effectively required all the time, and if Long War 2 missions are balanced around not having them, then they remain overpowered, even if they are used infrequently.
I would remove the hero classes and use their abilities to improve the classes of LW2. For example the Grenadier could look like this:
- The environmental damage of explosive grenades should always include the Sapper perk
- Sapper should be replaced with a weaker version of Salvo (launching a damaging grenade will not cost an action)
- Center Mass should be replaced with Formidable to make the choice at that rank interesting.
- Boosted Cores should should increase the damage of explosive grenades by 25 % (rounded up) to make it useful late game.
- Formidable should be replaced with Claymore (WotC) to make the choice at that rank interesting.
- Chain Shot should be replaced with Shrapnel (WotC) to make the choice at that rank interesting.
- Bombardier and Salvo should switch the positions and Salvo should be replaced with Highlands (WotC).
This would be a lot of work, plus it would effectively throw away a lot of the love and effort Firaxis has put into the new classes. I think they should still exist, but be less overpowered (or be just as overpowered, but carry a cost penalty when taking them on missions, as per my original suggestion in the OP - that seems like the best solution in my opinion)

Also...
8wayz wrote:It will prohibitevily difficult to cannibalize the new classes. Most of their perks are tied to their weapon and secondary item (Ripjack, Claymore, Mag pistol).

Also Claymore (the ability) is granted by the item, not by a perk. So they will need to separate the ability from the item and create a new perk.

It will be just better to simply use them and try to balance them with the existing classes in Long War 2. Possibly merging a class or two.
--
wizard1200 wrote:The main issue with infiltration is that it makes you wait and spend a lot of downtime just looking at the watch. That was one of the gripes of Beaglerush after he quit Long War 2. Too much downtime and micromanaging squads both on the Geoscape and in the barracks.
A lot of this front-loaded waiting time could be mitigated by halving infiltration times and adding fatigue to soldiers after a mission equal to the new infiltration time. This means instead of being front loaded and having you sit there scanning with the avenger for days waiting for your infiltration to finish, you would instead pay half of the "we can't use our soldiers" penalty after the mission. As an added bonus, if someone is tired but not completely fatigued, you could still take them on missions (which adds a bit more risk/reward) instead of just having a static "they are either usable on a mission or not" state. I might add this to the OP actually

CrazzyJimmy
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by CrazzyJimmy » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:21 am

For the hero units, I like the idea of them being something you can send rookies to get trained as. It would work much like a Psi-Operative, you can only send rookies and it locks them out of the other classes. Maybe make it to where you have to pay to get a person trained. The abilities can easily be integrated into the game, and like someone said before they fill the same roles as some LW2 classes. That said, they do need balancing.

Now the trick here is that you can not send someone to get trained by the Skirmishers because they are ex-advent. What I would like to see is through them you can potentially get ex-advent in your squads. I like the idea that Ex-ADVENT has a bonus to infiltration, due to knowing the patrol patterns and such.

So

Reapers: Send people to get trained (like Psi-Operative)
Templar: Send a Psi-Operative to get trained (turn a Psi-Operative into a Melee fighter)
Skirmishers: Grant "ADVENT Soldiers" to XCOMs team.

Novem
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by Novem » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:28 am

I haven't read every post on this thread but I have a different idea for controlling Hero characters that I also think would improve their implementation in the game. I agree that missions should definitely be balanced around not having them because that just makes sense, but I don't think that there should be a cost for using them as suggested. In fact, I don't think you should be able to get them up front at all.

Considering just how strong these units are I have a different suggestion, not introducing them until the mid-game and having the player need to have to work in order to get them in the first place. I have a few different ideas for how this would be done.

My first idea would be my preference, because personally I don't like these units coming in and being instantly overpowered with unique abilities rather than having the hero units rise from the ranks naturally (that and getting a Hero unit feels empty rather than special), but it does have some problems. That idea is to use a Fire Emblem-style promotion system where you could get one of your units up to Colonel and then when you have enough influence with one of the resistance factions, you can take a covert action to have that Colonel trained as a member of that class. As for problems, Skirmishers aren't human but your XCOM soldiers are, so this would have to break the lore a bit. Though personally I think that the Covert Action could just state that they genetically modified the soldier or something, or of course they could just be human Skirmishers (but I understand that might be against what some would want out of the class).

Another option would be a chain of Covert Actions which are necessary in order to recruit a Hero unit.

Yet another would be to do that promotion system I suggested but instead just make it so that the Covert Action to train a Colonel into a Hero is instead just a recruitment mission.

Also you could have the Hero units cost a certain amount of resources in order to recruit one on top of the influence necessity.

Either way, I think some efforts need to be done in order to make Hero units feel special in a way that's more rewarding than in the current game (like limiting you to taking only one on every mission and giving them limitations that regular XCOM soldiers don't have, taking away their ability to use Utility items is fine, but it doesn't go far enough in making heroes distinct while still being powerful). As the game is right now I'd actually like an option to remove Hero units from the game, because I really dislike how they crowd out my other units making them feel less useful. The ease of acquiring them is also a huge negative, as far as I'm concerned.

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8wayz
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by 8wayz » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:47 am

@Sarge - That is how the Fatigue system currently works in War of the Chosen. You can take tired soldiers and at the end of the mission they become Shaken for a few days and get a negative trait most of the time (for example Fear of XYZ).

The system works great in game actually, as in you get soft penalties that you might want to spend some extra time removing (about 10 days for removing that negative trait).

@CrazzyJimmy - Being able to train resistance classes on demand can get out of hand really fast. I prefer to have them available only via Covert operations where you spend some time recruiting the guy and possibly get some extra stats and XP for the soldiers sent on the mission.


Concerning infiltration, the system is set so you are shown how low alien activity can go down if you spend all the remaining time infiltrating. Most of the missions though start from Swarming or Super Heavy. That initial amount of activity will need to be rebalanced to accommodate both infiltration and fatigue.

Infiltration also won't make much sense with SITREPs - you know there are Lost on that mission, you can not lower their number simply by striking at the most opportune time. They will be always there.

I would like to see optional infiltration window, where you assign soldiers like the Covert Operations interface, to get additional SITREPs for that mission. Missions will still have expiration time, but you will no longer be able to fine tune how many enemies you will meet on it. However, adding additional SITREPs might allow you to bring back more loot or lure some Lost to the area.

sarge945
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by sarge945 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:22 am

8wayz wrote:@Sarge - That is how the Fatigue system currently works in War of the Chosen. You can take tired soldiers and at the end of the mission they become Shaken for a few days and get a negative trait most of the time (for example Fear of XYZ).

The system works great in game actually, as in you get soft penalties that you might want to spend some extra time removing (about 10 days for removing that negative trait).
This is what I was referring to. The system is really fantastic. I updated the OP to merge it with the existing infiltration system. I think it's a pretty good idea personally, I really hope the developers see this thread.
8wayz wrote:Infiltration also won't make much sense with SITREPs - you know there are Lost on that mission, you can not lower their number simply by striking at the most opportune time. They will be always there.
Infiltration should be completely disabled on missions with the horde SITREP - the one that removes Advent entirely. It doesnt make sense to reduce the number of Lost, and having a few "instant" missions could be nice to change things up.

As for normal missions which have ADVENT and the Lost, I don't know how these could be handled. They usually have significantly less ADVENT than usual, and I don't know if the infiltration system would be feasible there. I guess it's up to the developers to see what works.

On the topic of SITREPs, there are some SITREPs in the game (complete with dialogue from Shen/Tygan) which are completely unused. Some of them are super interesting as well - like one that allows you to only take one soldier, but they get to move on every enemy action, similar to the old Alien Rulers mechanics.

This mod here reintroduces a lot of the cut ones. I hope some of them make it into Long War 2, because they seem extremely fun and a good way to shake things up.

Steelflame
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by Steelflame » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:46 am

I'd say that infiltration makes more sense on certain missions than others (why does infiltration time modify Troop movements, UFO Landings, or Supply Raids mob counts? The point is you are killing them to remove/prevent strength, why should a high infiltration to kill only 7-8 troops take the same one point of strength that doing a 0% infiltration for 30-40 enemies does?), and there should be cost and rewards for both high and low infiltration.

High infiltration (150+%) should result in shorter mission timers (you waited 2 days longer to strike that computer, why did it suddenly just NOW kick into overdrive?), except for Smash and Grabs instead being longer infiltrations letting the main advent forces get further before you attacked, but faintly lower Advent counts in normal missions, quicker extractions, and reduced detection radius while in the concealment phase. Concealment could absolutely depend on reaching that minimum 100%. As a boost, concealment should be buffed across the board. It doesn't really do you much good to be concealed when enemies have concealment detection nearly as large as your vision radius is, especially with the fact that the mission timer would be shorter forcing you to be much more aggressive on moving forward. Really high levels of infiltration should negate the tired debuff entirely, if only for that mission.

Low Infiltration (50%-) should result in longer mission timers (or faster reinforcements in the case of SnG), more aware pods (once the combat starts, everyone comes running, so you better be ready), faintly more Advent in normal missions, and more reinforcements.


In addition, will should restore while infiltrating, as well as apply a will protecting bonus the longer you infiltrate as you soldiers prepare better for exactly what forces they will face. You'll still lose some will, but instead of losing 40-30 will from a mission, you may only lose 20-10, both from the slightly fewer enemies, and from resisting the loss of will from when those enemies engage you, and the fact that you're also more likely to be able to avoid some enemies entirely, further helping preserve will.

This makes short and long infiltrations not only an ease of combat case, but a case of how much will your soldiers will retain. Low infiltration missions will probably be safer, as you have more time to set up in mission, but your soldiers will tire from them rapidly, while high infiltration missions higher demands on aggressive movement to the objectives means you'll be more likely to hit a few times by stray fire, resulting in wound timers.

With this, infiltration timers in general would need some tweaking. Low timer missions would be less likely to be a suicide mission in the early-mid game, while high timer missions should be less frequent. You could also make some of the perks that currently effect infiltration alternatively affect will, such as granting some classes like Gunners a will boosting ability in the tree to help them go on more of the low timer missions.

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8wayz
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by 8wayz » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:48 am

To expand on my suggestion, infiltration time could be spent both removing and adding a SITREP. Each mission will have a random list of SITREPs (that make sense for it to have) and let us say every 50% of Infiltration you will get one SITREP point.

When starting the mission a new window could appear prompting you to distribute your SITREP points, either by adding new or removing the existent from the list of generated SITREPs.

I would favour this approach as it will allow you to better tailor your mission, not tie down a whole squad, just 1 to 4 soldiers (like the Covert ops mechanic) and you will not be able to directly influence the number and power of enemies on the mission.

sarge945
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by sarge945 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:54 am

8wayz wrote:I would favour this approach as it will allow you to better tailor your mission, not tie down a whole squad, just 1 to 4 soldiers (like the Covert ops mechanic) and you will not be able to directly influence the number and power of enemies on the mission.
I agree that SITREPs need some changes to be better tailored to missions. I'm not sure the user should have control over it though. That said, I think it makes sense for Pavonis to completely disable SITREPs on certain missions, such as any mission associated with a Dark Event, as sometimes they can make a mission ridiculously unfair, and because it is tied to a dark event, it's really not viable to skip it.

On the flip side, I would love to see more SITREPs which are based on the players actions. Like having special SITREPs tied to some dark events, region strength, etc.

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NoDebate
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by NoDebate » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:41 pm

Chosen Fortress Assaults should require the parent region be Liberated or replace the HQ Assault for that region.

sarge945
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by sarge945 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:55 pm

NoDebate wrote:Chosen Fortress Assaults should require the parent region be Liberated or replace the HQ Assault for that region.
I would actually really like it if Chosen could lead an army to retake your liberated regions

Jacke
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by Jacke » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:05 am

sarge945 wrote:Currently, the fatigue system works in that if a soldier is tired after a mission, they must take a risk if they go on another mission which could result in them gaining a negative trait. The amount of fatigue a soldier gains during a mission seems to be mostly random. I know it is based on some factors, but they are so difficult to keep track of it can seem arbitrary.
"The amount of fatigue a soldier gains during a mission seems to be mostly random."

Wow. If that's so, that's very disappointing. It didn't have to be that way.

Currently, when I play LW2, I add in Grimy's Moral Mod. As said on the mod's page:

"This mod is my take on a more interactive fatigue system. We Darkest Dungeon Now."

"A soldier's willpower now represents their level of fatigue."

"The Bar/Memorial has 4 R&R slots by default. You can unlock 2 more by purchasing squad size I and II. You can add more via INI edit."

"Soldiers receive bonus XP for just being on a mission now. The amount of XP provided is proportional to that soldier's willpower percentage. You'll net more XP per mission if you bring well rested soldiers."

(And I suddenly realize where my XCOM soldiers were getting extra XP from. It can be adjusted in the mod's config INI.)

"Non-Robotic Soldiers (including enemies) will lose willpower when they are attacked. The amount lost depends on whether or [ not ] the attack hit, crit, grazed, or missed, and the damage output of the weapon performing the attack. When a soldier hits 0 willpower, they roll for an affliction or a virtue, similar to what soldiers in darkest dungeon do when they hit 100 stress."

Critical hits on XCOM would also cause extra Willpower damage on the rest of squad as if all others were shot at and missed.

"If you use this mod with my Additional Icons mod, you will be able to see a green bar below the health bar, which is a given unit's willpower bar."

"Mindshield has now been changed to decrease willpower loss by 75%."

Willpower was recovered by getting promoted (all restored) or resting out of missions, especially in the Bar's R&R slots.

Under LW2, the affliction system didn't seen to work. And the Bar R&R slots only showed up if a new game was started with the mod installed.

But the rest worked. Everyone, XCOM and ADVENT, took Willpower "damage" when they were the targets of attacks. With the Additional Icons, you'd see the thin green bar get smaller. When it was reduced to 0, they'd usually panic and hunker and take a turn to recover. For XCOM attacking, this made the Tower hack result "Hynography" very useful, as it halved ADVENT's Will. Their solders broke down and were ineffective more often. Low Willpower XCOM troops from Gatecrasher on would break when under attack. Having good Willpower and rested troops was essential.

I never had the time to take a career very far and see how well it worked in a continuing campaign and be certain what adjustments I should make to it, but it certainly struck the right chord with me. I would turn its bonus XP down; Willpower loss so far seemed to be right, as well as Willpower recovery.

And I'd never say it was random.

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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by JulianSkies » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:50 am

Fatigue a soldier gains in a mission isn't really random but there's a lot of factors, each factor is capped at inflicting at max 33% of your max will in fatigue, though.
There's simply finding a new pod.
There's taking damage.
There's suffering any kind of status. (even non-damaging ones)
Chosen with Brutal.
I think there's also more factors, but you'd need to pay closer attention/code dive to figure those out.

sarge945
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Re: My Long War of the Chosen ideas

Post by sarge945 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:07 am

JulianSkies wrote:Fatigue a soldier gains in a mission isn't really random but there's a lot of factors, each factor is capped at inflicting at max 33% of your max will in fatigue, though.
There's simply finding a new pod.
There's taking damage.
There's suffering any kind of status. (even non-damaging ones)
Chosen with Brutal.
I think there's also more factors, but you'd need to pay closer attention/code dive to figure those out.
sarge945 wrote:The amount of fatigue a soldier gains during a mission seems to be mostly random. I know it is based on some factors, but they are so difficult to keep track of it can seem arbitrary.
I know it's based on some factors. These factors are extremely difficult to keep track of in Vanilla, and can make the fatigue system feel very random even when it is not.

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