Future of shinobi?

[osiyeza]

The idea of starting from cero may have sense, but somehow is unpractical. Cause we need to be able to work with the game framework and gun models and so on. Plus the problems are actually not that big.

One example is the available weapons, these are modelled and animated and the game is built around them, so they can be added or changed but mostly you have to stick with them.

One perfect example of how the game somewhat limmits how classes can be built, is that grenades are built as an AOE damage and support feature, those roles naturally belong to the grenadier and are related to the grenade launcher. The same happens with other classes.

Everyone seems to agree that technical and grenadier are one class too much. And they should be just one class with the rolles of crow control, demolition and squadsupport.

Besides that the major problems are that the knife in the gunner is pointless, specialists should have a little more spice on them, and pistols are totally not as fun as vanilla.

Also, and somehow and this is more personal:

-The holotargeting and shapshooter and roles that sinergyze with each other and should not belong to the same class.
-The assault feels somewhat be have to opposite roles tactical incapacitation of units and flanking damage dealers, this does not fit natural and that is why i would give the sword back to them turning into a short distance monster, this can be done by just replacing the arc thower tree with the sword tree.
- Shinobi feels also somewhat disjointed between scouting and silent assasin, though i love them. Those roles belong more too two classes. Turning the shinobi in a tactical scout, with the posibilities of making them long range mobile shooter or using holotargeter or arc thrower from the distance. We all know the scout was the best idea from LW1, bringing the arc thrower to it will make it even more cool.

Is very easy to see why these changes work, since they are coherent with some of the same habilities. Instead of the more mutually exclusive paths before.

I think the ideas i posted before help dealing with these issues and increase the tactical flavour\fun of some classes.

[Psieye]

Everyone seems to agree that technical and grenadier are one class too much. And they should be just one class with the rolles of crow control, demolition and squadsupport.

Besides that the major problems are that the knife in the gunner is pointless, specialists should have a little more spice on them, and pistols are totally not as fun as vanilla.

We're arriving at similar conclusions from different directions. These problems I've quoted above all stem from the constraint that "every class has a designated secondary". You can conceivably make an Assault that uses a rifle instead of a shotgun. But you can't change the secondary for any of the classes. Merging Technical + Grenadier is a matter of "let them choose between Gauntlet and Grenade Launcher". Suppose the Gunner could equip pistols instead of a knife (purely for Combatitives to stop suppression being interrupted from a Stun Lancer).

The discussion should then include if pistol perks stay the way they are as we move from AWC to Training Center. Should they go back to being a secondary instead of an item? That a few classes can choose to equip (with appropriate perks in their tree)? Suppose the Assault could choose between pistol and sword? Suppose the Sharpshooter could choose between holo, arc thrower or pistol? Suppose the Ranger could choose between holo and the sawnoff?

[wadeanthony]

Shinobi class can be dropped and it's perks rolled into the Reaper. Also the Vector rifles can work like the Marksman rifle of LW and have limited squad sight.

Sword goes back to Assault and the Arc thrower becomes a utility item like the pistol with it's perks rolled into it via the proving ground projects and buffed a bit. So if you have problem with mechs, you'd take arc throwers to shut them down instead. After all there are only 4 perks. Chain Lightning can be one use perk and have an AoE instead of targeting everyone and only usable by the last tier one if it's too powerful to have a full squad with them.

The knife can also become utility item as well. I would like Gunner to have SAWs that work like they do now and LMGs with limited squad sight that requires 2 actions to shoot rather then give him back the nade launcher. I really miss LMGs.

Grenadiers can however get full kit a bit earlier in the tree, even if it's moved one rank up to match LW1 Engineer.

Templars can get their skills the same way to as Psi Ops to balance them if they are indeed overpowered (I don't really think they are atm compared to Reaper and Skirmishers but I'm still early game)

Overwatch perks can be removed from the Specialist tree in favor of being more of a support class and given to the Skirmishers. Specialist can become more like LW1 Medic (without overwatch perks) by getting perks like combat drugs, free smoke nade, revive (stabilize brings them back up with 33% hp) , and packmaster. Skirmishers can get Sentinel, covering fire, CUP and Kill zone and allow them to use shotgun, AR and bullpulp for mix range fighting.

Honestly I find it a bit hard to keep Ranger and if I had to drop another class it be Ranger. Just give Rapid Reaction and Light em Up to Gunner and make them XCOM training perks like they are now and what do you miss from the class? Sawed- off shotgun can become a utility item as well with Pump Action can be a proving ground project.

Sparks - Which I don't feel need classes but instead a buff to their heavy weapons. MECs were a main stay because of their ability to tank and their heavy weapons.
If we gave Sparks flamethrowers, restorative mist, Strike(punch) as an item instead of a perk, Grenade Launcher, Electro Pulse (for anti mech) and Proximity mine launcher (unique to them). Remove Shredder gun/cannon, Plasma Blaster and make them human only. Technicals would still have access to flame thrower (an it's perks), Rockets and give them the only access to Blaster Launcher and make all Rocket perks get Blaster Launcher effects once equipped.

So the classes and weapons we would have are

Assault - shotgun/AR class weapons/Sword
Grenadier -shotgun/AR class weapons/ Grenade Launcher
Gunner - LMGs & SAWs
Sharpshooter - Sniper rifler/Vector rifles?/Holotargeter
Technical - shotgun/AR class weapons/Gauntlet
Specialist - shotgun/AR class weapons/Gremlin

Reaper - Vector rifles/Claymore
Skirmishers - shotgun/AR class weapons/Bull Pulp/ Ripjack

Psi Ops - shotgun/AR class weapons/Amp
Templar- Machine Pistol/Pistol?/ Psi Gauntlet

Sparks - Heavy Autocannon and Spark Bit



Utility items any class can equip (1 total?)
Sawed off Shotgun
Pistol
Combat Knife (Combatives can still be a perk for Assaults and XCOM training perk plus it still gives +10 dodge on it's own)
Machine Pistol?

[osiyeza]

Everyone seems to agree that technical and grenadier are one class too much. And they should be just one class with the rolles of crow control, demolition and squadsupport.

Besides that the major problems are that the knife in the gunner is pointless, specialists should have a little more spice on them, and pistols are totally not as fun as vanilla.

We're arriving at similar conclusions from different directions. These problems I've quoted above all stem from the constraint that "every class has a designated secondary". You can conceivably make an Assault that uses a rifle instead of a shotgun. But you can't change the secondary for any of the classes. Merging Technical + Grenadier is a matter of "let them choose between Gauntlet and Grenade Launcher". Suppose the Gunner could equip pistols instead of a knife (purely for Combatitives to stop suppression being interrupted from a Stun Lancer).

The discussion should then include if pistol perks stay the way they are as we move from AWC to Training Center. Should they go back to being a secondary instead of an item? That a few classes can choose to equip (with appropriate perks in their tree)? Suppose the Assault could choose between pistol and sword? Suppose the Sharpshooter could choose between holo, arc thrower or pistol? Suppose the Ranger could choose between holo and the sawnoff?

You are right and i think we basically agree on the basics

(though i think the gunner needs more more cool options for the gun, not a secondary weapon). As i said before i would give no secondary to the gunner and an extra slot to carry extra ammo or use an alternative ammo type. But yes you are on the the same basic point as me. I would love clases to be able to choose some basic equipment strategic options.

Somehow the problem is to fit this idea in a class system, with very few abilities to choose from for each one.

For example one class cannot have specific trees for more than one or two secondary weapons, so your idea of the sharpshooter is what i divide in scout (current shinobbi, with arc thrower or holo targeting options) or sharpshooter with pistol.

[osiyeza]

Shinobi class can be dropped and it's perks rolled into the Reaper. Also the Vector rifles can work like the Marksman rifle of LW and have limited squad sight.

Sword goes back to Assault and the Arc thrower becomes a utility item like the pistol with it's perks rolled into it via the proving ground projects and buffed a bit. So if you have problem with mechs, you'd take arc throwers to shut them down instead. After all there are only 4 perks. Chain Lightning can be one use perk and have an AoE instead of targeting everyone and only usable by the last tier one if it's too powerful to have a full squad with them.

The knife can also become utility item as well. I would like Gunner to have SAWs that work like they do now and LMGs with limited squad sight that requires 2 actions to shoot rather then give him back the nade launcher. I really miss LMGs.

Grenadiers can however get full kit a bit earlier in the tree, even if it's moved one rank up to match LW1 Engineer.

Templars can get their skills the same way to as Psi Ops to balance them if they are indeed overpowered (I don't really think they are atm compared to Reaper and Skirmishers but I'm still early game)

Overwatch perks can be removed from the Specialist tree in favor of being more of a support class and given to the Skirmishers. Specialist can become more like LW1 Medic (without overwatch perks) by getting perks like combat drugs, free smoke nade, revive (stabilize brings them back up with 33% hp) , and packmaster. Skirmishers can get Sentinel, covering fire, CUP and Kill zone and allow them to use shotgun, AR and bullpulp for mix range fighting.

Honestly I find it a bit hard to keep Ranger and if I had to drop another class it be Ranger. Just give Rapid Reaction and Light em Up to Gunner and make them XCOM training perks like they are now and what do you miss from the class? Sawed- off shotgun can become a utility item as well with Pump Action can be a proving ground project.

Sparks - Which I don't feel need classes but instead a buff to their heavy weapons. MECs were a main stay because of their ability to tank and their heavy weapons.
If we gave Sparks flamethrowers, restorative mist, Strike(punch) as an item instead of a perk, Grenade Launcher, Electro Pulse (for anti mech) and Proximity mine launcher (unique to them). Remove Shredder gun/cannon, Plasma Blaster and make them human only. Technicals would still have access to flame thrower (an it's perks), Rockets and give them the only access to Blaster Launcher and make all Rocket perks get Blaster Launcher effects once equipped.

So the classes and weapons we would have are

Assault - shotgun/AR class weapons/Sword
Grenadier -shotgun/AR class weapons/ Grenade Launcher
Gunner - LMGs & SAWs
Sharpshooter - Sniper rifler/Vector rifles?/Holotargeter
Technical - shotgun/AR class weapons/Gauntlet
Specialist - shotgun/AR class weapons/Gremlin

Reaper - Vector rifles/Claymore
Skirmishers - shotgun/AR class weapons/Bull Pulp/ Ripjack

Psi Ops - shotgun/AR class weapons/Amp
Templar- Machine Pistol/Pistol?/ Psi Gauntlet

Sparks - Heavy Autocannon and Spark Bit



Utility items any class can equip (1 total?)
Sawed off Shotgun
Pistol
Combat Knife (Combatives can still be a perk for Assaults and XCOM training perk plus it still gives +10 dodge on it's own)
Machine Pistol?

You have some good points but i like more to see the pistol,and the shotgun as secondary class dependent guns as they are (Totally dropping the knife). Otherwise your idea allows having three guns on many classes making them totally overpowered or turning them all in the same thing. Cause if you can have an specialist with a sawed shotgun and a regular rifle and a gremlin, it pretty much covers alone half the roles on the team.

[osiyeza]

A big point seems to be, integrate the new WotC faction soldiers into the classes and being able to make as much as you want or not?

My answer is definetely not. They should be special very limited units, like the sparks, very expensive to have, and maybe limited to one or two of each type. This clases are unique personalities, with different and less personalization options that fit in the story as very limited an unique soldiers.

The classes of the game should be tunned, maybe reducing some redundancies. But mixing the old classes with the new units and make an omelete is not what i want. I want to integrate the new content in lw2, balancing the lw2 class system to make it better, but still being able to enjoy the new story and content. Without completely remove it and without being able to make all the soldiers a kind od tunned down reaper.

The new units are heroes that should be hard to get, limited in use, make sense historywise, as they are now. To make them just cosmetic options, or to be able to turn all soldiers in these will take for me all the fun, and for once maybe go to play vainilla over lw2, cause it will be simply more cool and have more features.

For example vainilla will have 4 classes + Psi soldiers + Sparks + 3 Faction classes.

Some of these extremely unique and fun to use, some of the options i see here for integrating the factions soldiers in the class system, removing some of the classes will actually... Result for the first time in a more poor experience compared with the vainilla one,

For example the previous post just proposses the same system as vainilla, adding the technical / grenadier overlapping, and taking away the gunslinger fun, the heavy simplicity, and adding for all classes an overlapping perk gun system that gives you so many choices that actually removes the decision making, with less tactical options, and less fun.

I understand the idea and very good intentions behind it, but we need some perspective.

[Psieye]

Arc thrower becomes a utility item like the pistol with it's perks rolled into it via the proving ground projects and buffed a bit. So if you have problem with mechs, you'd take arc throwers to shut them down instead. After all there are only 4 perks. Chain Lightning can be one use perk and have an AoE instead of targeting everyone and only usable by the last tier one if it's too powerful to have a full squad with them.

The knife can also become utility item as well.

I would love clases to be able to choose some basic equipment strategic options.

Somehow the problem is to fit this idea in a class system, with very few abilities to choose from for each one.

For example one class cannot have specific trees for more than one or two secondary weapons, so your idea of the sharpshooter is what i divide in scout (current shinobbi, with arc thrower or holo targeting options) or sharpshooter with pistol.

Hmm... maybe we need to re-think how the perks are distributed. Right now we're assuming it'll be like the existing LW2 system: 3 branches in each class' tree, AWC for 6 random perks as well as all the pistol perks (in random order) plus optional extra perks if you go in the officer tube.

Between Breakthroughs (might even be non-RNG - what if it's a Lab project similar to Proving Grounds projects?) and the new AP-based Training Center, maybe the core trees can go back to being 2-branch. Like, imagine a Training Center with 5 branches. Make the rule that you can't get perks from your core tree from the Training Center, i.e. you can't get both Revival Protocol and Combat Protocol with the current LCpl Specialist tree. The different branches would then be for perks only related to the secondaries/utility items. So classes that can use the pistol (if it becomes a secondary) can train pistol perks without disrupting their core perk choices.

[Psieye]

A big point seems to be, integrate the new WotC faction soldiers into the classes and being able to make as much as you want or not?

My answer is definetely not. They should be special very limited units, like the sparks, very expensive to have, and maybe limited to one or two of each type. This clases are unique personalities, with different and less personalization options that fit in the story as very limited an unique soldiers.

The classes of the game should be tunned, maybe reducing some redundancies. But mixing the old classes with the new units and make an omelete is not what i want. I want to integrate the new content in lw2, balancing the lw2 class system to make it better, but still being able to enjoy the new story and content. Without completely remove it and without being able to make all the soldiers a kind od tunned down reaper.

The new units are heroes that should be hard to get, limited in use, make sense historywise, as they are now. To make them just cosmetic options, or to be able to turn all soldiers in these will take for me all the fun, and for once maybe go to play vainilla over lw2, cause it will be simply more cool and have more features.

This is a topic that's yet to be settled - it can't be settled without people talking about their vision of how Covert Actions, infiltrations and fatigue will be mixed (or cut) together. The hero system works in vanilla because there are so few missions. If infiltration is cut and you only ever have to worry about 1 squad, then the hero limitation has a foothold. If the infiltration system stays and you have to worry about 3~6 simultaneous squads, then hero classes may as well not exist for bread & butter missions (i.e. B-team onwards). It'd be A-team centric - maybe that is desirable for you, but it wouldn't be for me.

Nobody said the faction classes had to be demoted to 'anyone can be this class with no restriction from game start'. You'd have to work for those faction units. But for someone working hard enough, you should be able to have e.g. 6 Reapers to put one in each squad at mid-lategame under an infiltration system. Vanilla players can field 6-spark squads - they worked hard for it. Why should a LWotC player not be able to field 8 Skirmishers if they put in the work?

[osiyeza]

A big point seems to be, integrate the new WotC faction soldiers into the classes and being able to make as much as you want or not?

My answer is definetely not. They should be special very limited units, like the sparks, very expensive to have, and maybe limited to one or two of each type. This clases are unique personalities, with different and less personalization options that fit in the story as very limited an unique soldiers.

The classes of the game should be tunned, maybe reducing some redundancies. But mixing the old classes with the new units and make an omelete is not what i want. I want to integrate the new content in lw2, balancing the lw2 class system to make it better, but still being able to enjoy the new story and content. Without completely remove it and without being able to make all the soldiers a kind od tunned down reaper.

The new units are heroes that should be hard to get, limited in use, make sense story wise, as they are now. To make them just cosmetic options, or to be able to turn all soldiers in these will take for me all the fun, and for once maybe go to play vainilla over lw2, cause it will be simply more cool and have more features.

This is a topic that's yet to be settled - it can't be settled without people talking about their vision of how Covert Actions, infiltrations and fatigue will be mixed (or cut) together. The hero system works in vanilla because there are so few missions. If infiltration is cut and you only ever have to worry about 1 squad, then the hero limitation has a foothold. If the infiltration system stays and you have to worry about 3~6 simultaneous squads, then hero classes may as well not exist for bread & butter missions (i.e. B-team onwards). It'd be A-team centric - maybe that is desirable for you, but it wouldn't be for me.

Nobody said the faction classes had to be demoted to 'anyone can be this class with no restriction from game start'. You'd have to work for those faction units. But for someone working hard enough, you should be able to have e.g. 6 Reapers to put one in each squad at mid-lategame under an infiltration system. Vanilla players can field 6-spark squads - they worked hard for it. Why should a LWotC player not be able to field 8 Skirmishers if they put in the work?

You misunderstood me a bit. Yes the spark system is very well balanced, so you can have a full squad of sparks but it would be super expensive, and also they are not better than a regular soldier.

WoTC are better and actually, the game already allows you to do that, having 1-2 units of each faction, you may have an entire squad of faction soldiers. Balancing this, and you may be able to have a squad of reapers in a long campaign.

But the same way i feel that being posible to have 40 sparks would break the game, having full squads of reapers and templars and sparks at the same time will. And that is what i think you are implying. I dont think is balanced to pretend to have one of each faction soldier in each squad. (Or having more than 6 faction soldiers in general), which i repeat the game mostly allows you to already.

What i just said, is that
- first i dont want the new factions be the same classes all the basic soldiers.
- i want them to be balanced the same way as sparks are, so you may have one spark in each squad or even a full spark squad (this is already posible with Wotc numbers). But not 20.

You and alot of people (maybe I'm wrong, and please dont take it personal) seem to propose to relax these requirements so maybe it is posible to have dozens of faction soldiers. I just want the game to be balanced to make this option as expensive as having dozens of sparks or dozens of psi ops. Cause i thing the game main force should still be regular soldiers.

[osiyeza]

The hero system works in vanilla because there are so few missions. If infiltration is cut and you only ever have to worry about 1 squad, then the hero limitation has a foothold. If the infiltration system stays and you have to worry about 3~6 simultaneous squads, ?

That is incorrect, they had to add a fatigue mechanic so the player needs more soldiers than one squad just in order to not break the game. That is exactly the reason why hero units need to remain hero units and be limited.

And i honestly thing 9 hero units (3 of each) for 4 squad is already unbalanced. So yes i want the vainilla limitation of WoTC to stay.

[Psieye]

The hero system works in vanilla because there are so few missions. If infiltration is cut and you only ever have to worry about 1 squad, then the hero limitation has a foothold. If the infiltration system stays and you have to worry about 3~6 simultaneous squads, ?

That is incorrect, they had to add a fatigue mechanic so the player needs more soldiers than one squad just in order to not break the game. That is exactly the reason why hero units need to remain hero units and be limited.

And i honestly thing 9 hero units (2 of each) for 4 squad is already unbalanced. So yes i want the vainilla limitation of WoTC to stay.

The sheer number of fragmented threads discussing different things is starting to take its toll on me. It's not your fault. I'm just tired of having repeat myself for the 4th time with something I posted in other threads. I won't ask you to find my posts elsewhere either. To keep it brief, this discussion is so full of ambiguous and unsettled details that we can't meaningfully talk at this level of depth. That's fine, we're not here to actually write full specifications for LWotC proposals, we're here to lightly (i.e. less than 10,000 words) discuss the ideas that excite us most.

So, thank you for sharing a piece of your views. I have shared a piece of mine. These narrow glimpses seemingly disagree with each other and that's fine. It's not our decision which way LWotC goes and I don't know about you but I won't be making the time to make my own vision a mod.

[LordYanaek]

It looks like this is the place to discuss every class and not just Shinobi. I just finished a Commander WotC campaign so let's go.

• Adding the 3 hero classes to LW2 classes would bring the number of classes to 13 grand total (including Sparks and Psi Ops). Is it really too much? LW1 had 16 classes (including 8 MEC classes) and i don't think anybody complained. There were some overlaps, especially between "fleshy" soldiers and their "metal" counterparts but they all had enough specificity and could all find their place in the game.
• I don't think "heroes" are overpowered and should be limited. The term hero was poorly chosen and is unfortunate but never used in game because they are actually just different soldiers with a slightly different (but not that different) way of gaining abilities. They might feel stronger early because they are more reliable than low level XCOM soldiers but their damage output is usually lower and becomes worse with higher tech levels. A plasma tier Vektor Rifle deals 5-6 damage when any basic rifle was doing 8-10 and my snipers were doing 10-12 without crits! Only Templars have good damage output in the late game, provided they can accumulate focus. In a LW2 environment they would probably feel very underpowered compared to other soldiers so i don't see any reason from limiting them apart from turning them into actual heroes but i would rather have them be different but balanced soldiers and available in multiple numbers.
• None of them really overlaps with existing LW2 classes. They have some overlap but also enough differences to not feel like a copy if they are left mostly untouched :
  • Reapers vs Shinobi. The reaper is definitely a better scout and would fit the role of a "walking battle scanner" better than a Shinobi but i always felt it was a pity to limit shinobis to that job. A reaper is also a stealthy assassin which can stay concealed while helping your squad which is something the shinobi never was (much to my regret) so again they are different. The shinobi OTOH can be an early game powerhouse (with sword) which can turn into a late game monster when you mix rifle and sword or a great tank. A shinobi will stay hidden to be an "ace in the sleeve" when you need him while a mostly unmodified Reaper will stay hidden to act as an actual scout and assassin against a single target (with Banish) and will have to quickly return to hiding after that because a visible Reaper is close to useless. A visible Shinobi (after he did his surprise attack) is still pretty formidable on his own.
  • Skirmishers vs Ranger. There is a significant difference in damage between those two. The Skirmisher is mostly locked to an SMG type weapon which is bad at range and does little damage. A Ranger is also much better as a Sentry because it's rare a Skirmisher will be able to benefit from his 2 OW shots apart from an Ambush (he have to give up both actions). OTOH, a Skirmisher have some really good tactical value with his Grapple hook pulling enemies from their position and leaving them exposed like Vipers do to your guys. There is some overlap but it would probably be possible to slightly modify one or both so both feel unique.
  • Templar is unlike anything XCOM have with their unique focus mechanism.

• Another way to implement faction soldiers would be to allow them to become any existing class but have a unique pool of special abilities (probably available through Training Center instead of the regular ones XCOM can have) but it would probably be more work.

• I think the Training Center will have to limit what's available because LW2 soldiers with all MSgt perks would be totally crazy (Vanilla soldiers are already quite crazy). However it should work mostly as it does in WotC with both an XCOM and an individual pool of APs.
  • The individual pool is great to keep soldiers progressing after MSgt which was always a shortcoming of XCOM progression (LW1 had small ability boosts to address this). It also forces you to spread your APs rather than just concentrate them all on a single squad which is both better for your game (keeping all your eggs in the same basket is nice until that basket gets trampled by Bersekers) and better for balance because a the Devs can't really balance the missions if there's always a huge difference in strength between our squads.
  • The personal pool have a pretty bad drawback : randomness. AP gain is determined by the combat intelligence which is assigned randomly. Training Center perks are assigned randomly. In LW2 our soldiers would also (probably) have random stats due to NCE. With only a personal AP pool, you'd likely have soldiers with good perks and no AP to learn them (low intelligence), soldiers with tons of crappy skills because they have to use those APs they gained and soldiers with good intelligence and good offensive perks but stats that limit them to the role of tank. The global pool comes in to allow you to learn the good skills you really want for your high aim sharpshooter or high mobility shinobi even if he doesn't have the intelligence to grow his own pool.
• BTW i think the new ability screen should replace the old one for LW2. The old one was never intended to be used with more than 2 choices while the new one was and it's also annoying to not know what TC perks you can get when deciding what to learn at level-up. I know there is already a mod that does that but i sure hope it's the default in LWotC

[Synx]

I don't think "heroes" are overpowered and should be limited. The term hero was poorly chosen and is unfortunate but never used in game because they are actually just different soldiers with a slightly different (but not that different) way of gaining abilities. They might feel stronger early because they are more reliable than low level XCOM soldiers but their damage output is usually lower and becomes worse with higher tech levels. A plasma tier Vektor Rifle deals 5-6 damage when any basic rifle was doing 8-10 and my snipers were doing 10-12 without crits! Only Templars have good damage output in the late game, provided they can accumulate focus. In a LW2 environment they would probably feel very underpowered compared to other soldiers so i don't see any reason from limiting them apart from turning them into actual heroes but i would rather have them be different but balanced soldiers and available in multiple numbers.

Their strenght doesn't completely come from their weapon hits, but what unique abilities they provide. The reapers strength is its scouting and claymore/environmental explosive options, and not his weapon damage. He can easily take down a squat on his own, without even leaving stealth. Outside of banish (which is amazing in taking down Chosen/Rullers, if you put an Extended mag on it's weapon), his damage is pretty weak yeah, but as a stealth scout/initiator reapers are amazing.

Templar has amazing damage negation aspects, with parry and reflect/deflect. Their focus use abilities seem a bit lackluster (I finished a legendary campaign and i barely used any of the focus cost abilities), but the Templar functions amazing as a frontline melee unit. Parry has properly absorbed 9/10 of all the Chosen Hunter and Assassin attacks in the game after I got this ability.

Skirmishers are amazing at flanking and maneuvering around the map, and can take down several low health squats on his own with his unique overwatch mechanics. From the three new classes, this one feels the less as an hero class though, as it doesn't provide something as strong or unique as the other two do.

If you would allow to have as many as you can, certain mechanics can be so abused making the game extremely easy. You could for example run a full templar squat, and just let each of them handle an own enemy. Run up Rend it and parry their attack in the next turn.

[LordYanaek]

I never considered they should come untouched, just that they would probable work "mostly untouched"

I would be for a removal of Remote Trigger. It's fun but gimmicky. Totally OP when the enemy gathers around a car but useless most of the time. I think i've used it once or twice in my campaign.

Banish is basically XCOM's "Power Word : Death". It's very powerful but consider it in a LW2 environment with more guys running around and suddenly being able to remove one of them with a high level soldier isn't that impressive when a Sharpshooter can already do it multiple times per mission with a bit of help. Also you probably noticed that the Reapers "conceal" has a cooldown of 1 turn after they leave shadow (which was something several people suggested to "fix" the shinobi's conceal in LW2). If that part can be modified and possibly increased after using Banish, it would create a dilemma as your Reaper is not always in positions where he would be safe if revealed.

I haven't personally been impressed with the Templars deflection, i don't think i have avoided a single hit in all the campaign (is there some special visual or does it look like a common miss). Parry is great but requires you to give up Momentum and stay where you are which is great if there's a single enemy on the map, but that's rare in LW2 and an Assault with Untouchable can already do it. If it's too strong too early, just move it up. Ionic Storm OTOH is quite strong, my Templar in the final mission removed 3 entire pods on her own, but MSgt level LW2 soldiers have very strong abilities that don't require them to accumulate kills before they trigger.

And yes, Skirmishers are amazing for flanking, so are LW2 Shinobis.

The full Templar squad might indeed be an issue unless enemies concentrate on the one with lowest defense (LW2 have NCE) but some people have suggested really hard limits like 1/each which is even more limiting than Vanilla. Having 3-4 of each (and not all of them very early) would probably be a good compromise and that could probably be done without any hard limit if they are still acquired through covert ops.

[Synx]

The reflect/deflect animation is roughly the same as the parry one. It requires the templar to have 2 focus though, but it can be very strong. In the last mission my templar kept 5 enemies busy with his high dodge change (extra dodge from focus + high dodge PS) and reflect/deflect/parry. Over 2 turns he only took 3 damage, as from the attacks that hited he parried/reflected 4 out of 6, and dodged the other 2.

I almost never use momentum to run away, as I use my templar to 'tank' high damage units like Berserkers or Andromedons.

In the late game banished is amazing. The rest of your squad can take care of most pods without a problem, but one with a Sectopod or Gatekeeper can be a problem. A reaper with AP-ammo and +4 clip size attachment can take care of them with just some minor help. I haven't had any mission with mutiple Sectopods or Gatekeepers. Not to mentioning how strong it is against the Chosen/Rulers.


Anyway It's just a personal preference i think. I like how they are a bit stronger then the other classes, but you can only have 4 of them total (2 of one class, and 1 from the other two classes). Their special skills give the missions they are in some fresh feeling. I think if you want to make them regular classes, their unique strength gets reduced and personally I'm afraid they will just turn out as combination of existing LW2 classes.

[LordYanaek]

Mhh, they may be a bit stronger than Vanilla classes but don't think they are stronger than LW2 classes. Banish is a perfect example : in LW2 a Sectopod or Gatekeeper is really not an issue me if i have Sharpshooter with Kubikiri and other players have presented other solutions that work well for them when i posted a thread considering Kubikiri might be too strong. At 1/mission and at the cost of revealing your spy, Banish wouldn't be stronger than Kubikiri but in Vanilla you don't have Kubikiri.

I also think they are different enough that they won't turn like a combination of existing classes. Well, i'm not sure about the Skirmisher but the Reaper's super stealth is different enough from any Shinobi (unless you're playing with Musashi's mods) and the Templar has Focus, a unique mechanism that don't depend on power to be unique. I think they can be balanced while staying unique and would prefer them to be balanced and available in multiple numbers. You're totally right that it's a personal preference but while is think 1/each is fine for Vanilla XCOM, i think it wouldn't really work in LW2 as the games are quite different.

[JulianSkies]

Mhh, they may be a bit stronger than Vanilla classes but don't think they are stronger than LW2 classes. Banish is a perfect example : in LW2 a Sectopod or Gatekeeper is really not an issue me if i have Sharpshooter with Kubikiri and other players have presented other solutions that work well for them when i posted a thread considering Kubikiri might be too strong. At 1/mission and at the cost of revealing your spy, Banish wouldn't be stronger than Kubikiri but in Vanilla you don't have Kubikiri.

I was about to point out how LW2 has some very powerful abilities like Kubikiri and Cyclic Fire, thanks for doing so first.

[crimsonsun]

I've got to say I don't want to lose the current LW2 classes for these Hero ones, I'm of the opinion that they should be like Sparks and PSI troops that they are more costly to invest into so your far less likely to have even close to as many in your force which would allow them to stay more powerful than the base soldiers.

A couple of suggestions have had the Ranger being lost for the Skirmisher which I'd hate, or the focus of the assault being split between Melee and Shotgun both of these suggestions have me concerned as these are my two fav Classes as is. I love the brutal death dealing abilities of my assault fighters and the Rangers are just so flexible I want them in every combat team, they are to me the secret workhorse of my long war 2 squads.

Crimsonsun