How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

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Psieye
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How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Psieye » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:11 pm

So we have a number of "I wish" threads showing up now that WotC is here. I feel the other threads are too broad in their scope of discussion so I'm making this one for one narrow topic: Skirmishers.

I've outlined my vision of them elsewhere but I'll go into a little more detail here: non-hero Skirmishers that can equip rifles/shotguns to replace LW2 Ranger. By "non-hero" I mean "you can get lots of them in the earlygame if you want and can afford it". They keep their grapple hook skills. They get the shooty and OW Ranger perks. Change Interrupt to be cooldown-based. Instead of Retribution (i.e. Bladestorm), CCS.

I could see an argument for them replacing Assaults instead of Rangers - with Whiplash doing the job of Arc Thrower (i.e. cooldown-based long-range stun). Note I'm assuming WotC classes will replace some existing classes instead of just being added on - there'd be too much role overlap IMO otherwise.
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Steelflame
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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Steelflame » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:11 pm

I actually made a post in the other big thread, future of Shinobi, and what I talked about is having resistance factions not provide one class, but 2, with each class being two sides of the same coin, of a feature that the Xcom classes are not good at.

For the Reapers, Shinboi become a true melee specialist, dedicated to melee capabilities with no gun at all, with the secondary weapon being the Sharpshooter's holotargetter, with the Reaper picking up the Shinobi's old shooting builds in it's tree. Both would be dedicated scouts/stealth units, with the Reaper using a gun to the Shinobi's sword.

Psi units and Templars were covered by the Templar faction, with Psi units having something along the current line of Psi skills, while Templars have the more flashy melee skill lines, both being specialized in dealing psionic damage.

Skirmishers and Rangers covered two sides of the same coin. Multishot specialist, who are extremely capable of firing multiple times per turn, with Rangers having more defensive/Overwatch perk lines while the Skirmisher would be more about their insane mobility but only functional with something along the lines of the current Sawn off shotgun's insanely short range table.


This may make you question what my new setup's base Xcom classes were. Xcom would have 4 base classes, Assaults, Sharpshooters, Grenadiers, and Gunners. Technicals were rolled into their own seperate spark class, instead of the current setup for them, with Grenadier's primary weapon replaced with the new salvaged flamethrower from the Purifier units.

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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Psieye » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:03 am

The one question that comes up for me when focussing specifically on Skirmishers in your proposal: are you proposing Pavonis spends manhours to make a laser and coil version of the Bullpup? Would your proposal still hold if they won't?
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Steelflame
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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Steelflame » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:30 am

I don't know if its absolutely nessesary for there to be laser and coil versions. Using the new Breakthrough research, you could make it so that you could apply a single guaranteed breakthrough for the ballistic and magnetic forms that buffs their base damages up to the laser/coil tiers as a small seperate research.

Although I wouldn't mind seeing a coil form, just because the coil weapons feel so viscerally good to use because of how powerful they sound and the looks are pretty nice as well. Laser may as well be bypassed entirely though, as the "boost" of laser weapons, their aim stat, wouldn't matter much in the situation where the Bullpup had the sawn off's range tables.

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8wayz
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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by 8wayz » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:30 am

I would prefer actually if they do not spend time and manpower on making laser and coil variants of the special weapons (like the Alien hunter ones), but they did keep the special breakthroughs.

There are breakthroughs that give +1 damage to each of the 3 main tiers. Thus the special weapons can remain relevant in terms of damage till you get to the next main tier. Note that you are not guaranteed to get those breakthroughs in the current version of War of the Chosen.

Pavonis can simply opt in to make them available in each campaign.

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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Psieye » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:56 am

Ah, guaranteed breakthrough tech for the no-laser/coil weapons. That would work - for the Spark too. Which brings to question: should those breakthrough techs exist for the base weapons? Why bother building Mag rifles if you made Laser rifles about as good as Mags?
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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Steelflame » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:05 am

I don't think they should, or if they do, it is as a temporary bonus, sort of like Xcom's own version of a monthly Dark event.

Or, change the main weapon Breakthrough researches to amplify what is unique about that weapon type, so laser weapons would gain even more bonus aim, coil would pierce 2 armor instead of one, plasma would apply Rupture 2 instead of Rupture 1, and perhaps just Magnetic would gain an extra point of damage. Ballistic shouldn't even bother getting an upgrade. Or perhaps Laser applies a weak holo-targeting effect, and magnetic gets innate 1 shred.
Last edited by Steelflame on Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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8wayz
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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by 8wayz » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:05 am

In Long War 2 each tier gives a specific secondary effect. So you will still be missing on that effect and also the breakthrough is a lot faster to research than the next tier.

Keep in mind that each tier is separated into two techs - main and specialized weapons (cannon, sniper rifles, Spark weapon etc ).

The breakthrough for each of the main tiers can simply be made dependent on a specific tech, for example the one for ballistic weapons to become available after you research the first Laser weapons tech (this is an example). This way it makes sense that new techs bring improvements to old ones, as well as letting you use old weapons for longer till you get enough resources to employ the new tier in sufficient numbers.

I am only suggesting breakthroughs for the main tiers - there will be no breakthrough for laser and coil tiers, which means that you will still keep the damage difference between tiers.

I.E in terms of damage :

Ballistic + Breakthrough = Laser
Magnetic > Laser and Ballistic +Breakthrough
Magnetic + Breakthrough = Coil
Plasma > Coil and Magnetic +Breakthrough
Plasma + Breakthrough = late-game alien weapons

cryptc
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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by cryptc » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:59 am

Aren't the bullpups pretty comparable to smg's in stats?

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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Sparky79 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:14 pm

Psieye wrote:Ah, guaranteed breakthrough tech for the no-laser/coil weapons. That would work - for the Spark too. Which brings to question: should those breakthrough techs exist for the base weapons? Why bother building Mag rifles if you made Laser rifles about as good as Mags?
For effects.
Every weapon has the additional effect, right? Lasers have aim, plasma rupture, coil armour pierce ... forgot what mags have.

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8wayz
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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by 8wayz » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:20 pm

Bullups have more ammo and better damage compared to an SMG.

For comparison:
Ballistic SMG:
Damage: 2-4
Ammo: 2
Grants +3 mobility

Ballistic Kal-7:
Damage: 3-4
Ammo: 3

Granted, they look similar, but in general the bullup rifle is better.

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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Psieye » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:16 pm

Sparky79 wrote:
Psieye wrote:Ah, guaranteed breakthrough tech for the no-laser/coil weapons. That would work - for the Spark too. Which brings to question: should those breakthrough techs exist for the base weapons? Why bother building Mag rifles if you made Laser rifles about as good as Mags?
For effects.
Every weapon has the additional effect, right? Lasers have aim, plasma rupture, coil armour pierce ... forgot what mags have.
Mags have nothing, but 8wayz solved this: Breakthroughs unlocked by teching to the next tier of gun. Maybe Mags should get something, like an innate T1 suppressor effect.
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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by NephilimNexus » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:20 pm

My 2 cents:

I'm not even sure LW even needs to have the new "hero" classes at all. They honestly seem to have been lifted from the LW2 class list and changed up just to avoid being accused of plagiarism.

First, run this all through the Covert Ops Ring and the mission system there. Next, where the other three "hero" classes used to be make a special ability training mission for their covert ops projects. If a Shinobi or Sharpshooter goes through this process (7 day base) then they can start using Reaper abilities. A Psionic trooper can be sent for special training with the Templars and come back with slots opened up for the unique Templar psi powers, which can now be trained normally by that soldier. An Assault or Ranger could go through Skirmisher training and unlock their powers.

Basically, the factions would just offer special training to unlock the hero powers for the training center. Actually learning the skills would still cost skill points, of course. The special training would just be to open the door, as it were. So for Reaper training you could buy a perk that turns Concealment into Shadow, along with the silent kill and claymore options. The Skirmisher training would let your troops buy a perk to do the move/attack in any order routine, and if they equip a Spider suit then they can do the pull thing (with a shotgun follow up, no less). Psionics would unlock the ability to learn the Templar weapons and powers.

Thus we can effectively get rid of the whole "hero" class nonsense entirely and just fold their abilities into our existing roster for the most part, while still using the Covert Ops Ring as sort of an advanced version of the Guerilla Tactics School.

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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Psieye » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:27 pm

Hmm, there's definitely potential to sending your soldiers off to get trained by the factions. To keep the faction perks somewhat in check, I think those perks (at least for Reaper/Skirmisher) should be tube-based to limit how many uber soldiers you can churn out by a given point in the campaign. As in, to learn higher rank Reaper/Skirmisher perks you'd have to go on more Covert Actions with their factions - on the assumption that we can run 1 Covert Actions per faction in parallel.
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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by hildissent » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:22 am

Steelflame wrote:I talked about is having resistance factions not provide one class, but 2
I don't hate this idea, assuming you get access to all three factions early. I'd break it down a little differently, personally. The core X-COM soldiers would be: Ranger, Grenadier, Gunner, Assault, Sharpshooter, Shinobi and SPARKS would go mostly unchanged, with the additions for them offered in WotC.

Technicals would be given to the Skirmishers. They'd get the bullpup, but lose the claws and grappling hook in favor of a wrist mounted flamers and rocket launchers. They'd be the one man wrecking crews clearing out Lost and blasting through the old cities.

Psi Operatives would obviously go to the Templars and would be their less-combat-oriented, more cerebral, "Cleric" counterparts. They'd get the machine pistol, and gauntlets to channel their power (the gauntlets are so much cooler than that stupid Psi Amp).

Specialist* would be given to the Reapers. They'd be redesigned specifically around hacking. The Specialists healing skills would have to be streamlined and folded into the medkit (possibly through the proving grounds). They'd get the Vektor but not the reaper stealth (maybe as a high level ability?) or claymore. They'd also get their drone.

This'd be my biggest ask. Instead of healing, they'd be kitted out with abilities to convey bonuses to their squadmates, and harass their enemies (hacking their communications to cause them to miss actions or causing their gear to power down/etc). Less of the RNG hacking, and more of a psionics but for technology approach.

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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Steve-O » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:43 pm

cryptc wrote:Aren't the bullpups pretty comparable to smg's in stats?
I don't know the stats as I don't have WOTC yet, but this was my thought when I first heard there was a "bullpup" weapon in WOTC: Maybe just remove the LW2 SMG and let bullpups take their place? Re-use the assets for SMGs in the "missing" tech tiers (maybe with a quick tweak to make sure that magazine stays behind the trigger in all cases.)

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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by Synx » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:11 pm

It all depends on what gameplay changes are going to be made, especially if they stick with the infiltration system or change it to the fatigue one, as I don't think Hero classes won't work well with the infiltration system (you would most likely put them all in your Team A squat as you want to have them available for an important missions when it pops up).

In the fatigue system Hero classes would most likely work better, as even if they just came back from a missions, you can still take them to the next missions if you want, with the consequence that they will be out for a moderate time afterwards (They become Shaken and have to rest).

From a gameplay perspective Skirmishers are honestly fine. Some talents seem a bit lackluster, but overall the class feels pretty solid and fun to play with. It's just a very mobile Ranger with some fun grabble abilities. I wouldn't change much of it's kit.

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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by LordYanaek » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:12 pm

I personally think all faction soldiers (i will purposefully avoid the term "hero" because vanilla soldiers can become much more powerful Marvel style heroes than faction soldiers in WotC) should stay "mostly" untouched (they can't be left as is, at the very least they would need a few more perks to have roughly the same options as XCOM guys and an additional rank). They are already pretty different from Vanilla and LW2 classes that they wouldn't overlap too much (not more than the "fleshy" and "metal" counterparts of the same class did in LW1). I also don't think there's a need to remove any existing class. 13 classes total (including Psi and Spark) would still be less than the 16 classes from LW1 (including Mec Troopers)

I really don't think the Skirmisher overlaps with the Ranger that much. If anything he overlaps with the Shinobi without the concealment part. His Bullpup really feels like an SMG in the game, they can get a melee attack with the Ripjack and are really efficient when they get flanking shots. However they are more of tactical tool that helps the squad than a pure flanking killing machine like a Shinobi can be (when they don't go for sword killing machine).

In order to make Skirmisher and Shinobi more different i would remove some of the dodge tanking from the Shinobi as it effectively turns them into efficient tanks which i think is strange for a stealthy class and replace it with some defense boost making them harder to hit. They could still serve as untouchable solo tanks but not as pure tanks with low defense that take hits instead of the rest of the squad and survive. I would give that role to Skirmishers as they have some synergies for being shot (i would remove the once/mission restriction from Reflex) and thus would add some survivability perks. I could see the 3 branches (provided Pavonis goes for roughly 3 branches for faction soldiers) going this way
  • One path focused on the ripjack/grapple and improving their mobility. It would be the offensive path that would have some overlap with Shinobi's (Wrath into flanks ≈ Reaper into flanks) but i wouldn't be too concerned as long as there's enough differences. There's already a bunch of good perks (which might require some slight changes like more charges or a cooldown instead of charges)
  • One path would follow (and possibly improve) the existing Tactician path to turn Skirmishers into "secondary officers" and offer unique "overwatch" mechanisms (interrupt, battle lord). Some of those might have to become cooldown based or have several charges/mission in LW2. It's pretty unique and doesn't overlap with any LW2 classes, the regular overwatchers are different.
  • The last path would be something for survival and being the big target who laughs at enemies as they target him. Unlike the Shinobi who would try his best not to get shot, the skirmisher would try to draw them. Most tanking abilities in LW2 work by increasing defense so having a guy who "likes" to be shot would be something different. Reflex would be a stepstone of this path. This is probably the path that would require the most additions.
That's how i see it. A guy who jumps around the battlefield to get aggressive positions but also a real team fighter who helps the squad while the Shinobi is more a solo operating around and independently from the rest of the squad and a grizzled veteran who won't care much about being shot as "it's just a fleshwound"

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Re: How would you want the Skirmisher adapted for LW2?

Post by rfriar » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:08 pm

NephilimNexus wrote:My 2 cents:

I'm not even sure LW even needs to have the new "hero" classes at all. They honestly seem to have been lifted from the LW2 class list and changed up just to avoid being accused of plagiarism.

First, run this all through the Covert Ops Ring and the mission system there. Next, where the other three "hero" classes used to be make a special ability training mission for their covert ops projects. If a Shinobi or Sharpshooter goes through this process (7 day base) then they can start using Reaper abilities. A Psionic trooper can be sent for special training with the Templars and come back with slots opened up for the unique Templar psi powers, which can now be trained normally by that soldier. An Assault or Ranger could go through Skirmisher training and unlock their powers.

Basically, the factions would just offer special training to unlock the hero powers for the training center. Actually learning the skills would still cost skill points, of course. The special training would just be to open the door, as it were. So for Reaper training you could buy a perk that turns Concealment into Shadow, along with the silent kill and claymore options. The Skirmisher training would let your troops buy a perk to do the move/attack in any order routine, and if they equip a Spider suit then they can do the pull thing (with a shotgun follow up, no less). Psionics would unlock the ability to learn the Templar weapons and powers.

Thus we can effectively get rid of the whole "hero" class nonsense entirely and just fold their abilities into our existing roster for the most part, while still using the Covert Ops Ring as sort of an advanced version of the Guerilla Tactics School.
I definitely like this idea the most, hope Pavonis adopts something similar.

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