Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

NephilimNexus
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Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by NephilimNexus » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:30 pm

I mentioned this in another thread and I'm reposting it here as it's own discussion.

My proposal/idea for how to integrate the hero classes into LW2, which already has plenty of good, solid classes in it already is to essentially eliminate the new hero types and fold their abilities into the already existing classes via special training programs in the Resistance Ring.

For example, let's start with the Reapers. Their powers are basically advanced stealth and remote mines. These powers are obviously best used by Sharpshooters and Specialists (depending on the power). We take the Reaper powers and split them up among our existing classes and then ditch the Reapers themselves entirely. For Sharpshooter we steal Shadow, Silent Killer, Sting, Blood Trail, Soul Harvest, Needle, Banish and Annihilate - all the rifle skills. Then we move all of the Claymore skills over to the Specialist, and let their Gremlin deliver/detonate the packages instead of using gunfire. So now Specialist can learn Claymore, Remote Start, Shrapnel, Distraction, Highlands and Homing Mine.

Now we don't just give these powers away for free, of course. We still need to get Skill Points and spend them in a Training Center. Once that is done we go over to the Resistance Ring and launch a Covert Ops mission for "Advanced Training" which takes the usual amount of time. The solider sent for training will return with the new hero powers unlocked in the Training Center, which can now be purchased normally with Skill Points as the soldier rises in the ranks.

Likewise, the other two hero classes can also be gutted and recycled. The Judge power can go to Shinobis, Assaults, Gunners and Rangers, but would require equipping a Spider suit to use the power (hey, LW2 isn't supposed to be easy) in order to get access to a grappling hook in the first place. Shinobi follows up with a sword, a Gunner their knife, Assault their standard shotgun and Ranger their sawed-off (if ammo remains). Ditto for Wrath. Reckoning and Whiplash obviously goes to Shinobis. Marauder would clearly go to Assault and possibly Ranger. Total Combat obviously goes to Grenadier. Zero in can go to Ranger and Gunner. Full Throttle is kind of useless but Shinobi might be able to use it. Interrupt and Waylay could be Ranger or Gunner. Judgement is a good choice for Gunners, too, as is Battlelord. Combat Presence and Manual order can be dropped - we already have Officer and Psionic skills that do these things.

Templar naturally gets their powers handed over to Psionic troopers. Straight conversion, nothing needs to be changed, however it could be simplified (if you want) by ditching Focus entirely and just putting everything on appropriately sized cool-down timers.

Again, all these things would be unlocked by sending a selected soldier away for "Advanced Training" with the respective faction for a week. When they come back they've got a new branch unlocked on their skill tree at the Training Center.

As for the special weapons... honestly, they are not needed at all. The graphics may look nice but in the end a Reaper vector is just another sniper rifle and the Skirmisher Bullpup is just a high damage SMG. They can easily be recycled as regular XCOM weapons, with the Vektor being the Marksman Rifle from LW1 and the Bullpup being a heavy SMG (falling between the regular SMG and rifle in terms of range, damage, mobility and infiltration times). The Templar blade would obviously be a Psionic-only thing, so it can stay as is.

Yes, this makes psionics potentially super-deadly. About damn time, if you ask me. Technical seems to get the shortest straw, which is unfortunate, but I really couldn't think of any way to put Claymore powers with them that actually made any sense, even though it really should be them that gets it over Specialist (if you can think of a way to make this work, please share). And hey, now you actually have a reason to build Spider suits. I thought about giving the Skirmisher claw to a different class but couldn't come up with anything that didn't seem silly. No big loss, though. Swords a still cooler and we've already got them.

And the rest of the package? The costume packs for Advent defectors, Reapers and Templars can just be chucked into the main game as well. After all, they're really just art assets, nothing more.

So that's my solution: Instead of fretting over how OP heroes are versus their rarity, I propose simply getting rid of those heroes outright and filtering their powers into the rest of your XCOM team via special training projects. Yes it takes time, yes it takes skill points. The costs versus power creep factor remains more balanced because of this. More importantly, it feels less like comic book cover art and more like a real something a real military would come up with (in 100 years or so).

LordYanaek
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by LordYanaek » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:00 pm

I see a number of issues with such proposal.
  • The way the faction soldiers are equipped : Claymore is a secondary so if you want to give them to a specialist they will replace Gremlins. Templars gauntlets is a Primary so in order for Psi Troopers to use them they have to be able to use that weapon instead of the rifle right from the start (i don't think it's possible to "unlock" a different primary based on the skills a soldier have learned, they are allowed or not based on the soldier class). It might be possible to change all the equipment to item slots like Pavonis did for the pistol but that would be a lot of work if it's possible at all.
  • Balance might be an issue. Some skills (especially for the Reapers) are balanced around the fact that his weapon deals lower base damage and the skills make up for that lower damage (to some extend) but if you suddenly give those skills on a Sharpshooter with a Sniper Rifle, you'll probably have a vastly overpowered soldier.
  • Some of those changes (especially your suggested changes to Judgment/Wrath) would probably require new animations as i suspect the entire sequence (Grapple + Ripjack attack) is a single animation. In order to use it with 4 different weapons would thus require 4 new animations/skill. While it's certainly possible (and parts of existing animations could be re-used), it would be one again a lot of work.
Obviously it will be up to Pavonis to decide the amount of efforts they put into the WotC version of LW2 (if it does actually happen, but who really think it won't ;) )

Finally, from a personal PoV i really don't want to see those new classes dropped. LW1 had 16 classes and nobody complained there were too many, LW2+WotC would have 13. Removing the faction soldiers would be a loss for me both in terms of unique mechanisms (Focus) and in terms of lore. A skirmisher isn't just an assault with special training, it's an ADVENT clone who broke free, they add a new dimension to the game which suddenly moves away from a simplistic black and white world (evil aliens eat humans, good humans try to save their race from evil aliens) towards shades of gray (the ADVENT soldiers you're killing didn't choose to be what they are and they could be totally different persons if they had their free will, Reapers are also using Aliens as food while trying to survive ...). I don't want to get back a simple Human vs Aliens world.

NephilimNexus
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by NephilimNexus » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:23 pm

Yes, I was thinking about the whole Specialist + Claymore thing and now I'm thinking it might be better suited to the Technical, a class which seems underused due to a lack of staying power (i.e. you fire one rocket and now you're just a rifleman with no rifle perks).

Then I thought about the lack of love for Technical and then remembered something that someone mentioned in another thread about stealing flamethrowers from Purifiers and letting XCOM use them. I tossed that around for a bit and realized that Technical could actually get all kinds of bonuses from this process:

1) Give the Claymore perk branch to Technical (rather than Specialist), so now they have another explosive toy to play with.

2) Bring in the stolen flamethrowers as primary weapons. Need a Purifier body to build one, to keep people from going nuts with them. This weapon should be usable by Grenadier and Technical. Works better for technical, because it would supercede their gauntlet flamer, allowing them to use their flame perk tree with a weapon that can actually be reloaded like any other primary weapon.

3) Add the basic grappling hook to Technical gauntlets. This would give Technical a mobility advantage that doesn't depend on Spider Suits. I thought about the Skirmisher pull and claw attacks, but that would be a bit too much IMHO.

JulianSkies
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by JulianSkies » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:57 am

I am... Not a fan, in general, of removing the faction classes in any way shape or form. It's like saying that they should have removed MECs in LW1 and added those abilities to the existing classes instead.

sarge945
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by sarge945 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:36 am

I'm not a fan of this idea, but my reasoning is basically that I like the hero classes, and not having them in the game (even if all their abilities and gameplay are replicated elsewhere) will reduce the amount of atmosphere and change the feeling of the game in a negative way

Steelflame
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Steelflame » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:58 am

I'm not a fan of removing the faction classes either, and infact wanted to go all in on faction classes, as such that there wasn't just the 3 faction classes, but infact 6 faction classes (Shinobi moved to Reapers, Ranger to Skirmishers, and Psionics to Templars), as well as reworking the Technical class itself into a Spark class, and rework the Grenadier to have a salavaged Flamethrower as their primary weapon, with a few perk tweaks to support that. I'd even enjoy a 4th faction that has a new variant of the specialist (melee-stealth focused, with either a stealthy anti-robotics hacker path, or a melee skulljack-ish path, balanced accordingly), as well as the specialist class.

I'm absolutely fine with the idea of overlap between the faction and normal classes, and this actually makes each faction be known for a unique strength they bring to the Xcom group once you have recruited them (Reapers bring stealth, Skirmishers multi-shot action, Templars the Psionics branch of powers, and that hacker group... well hacking.)

Sparky79
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Sparky79 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:38 am

Sorry, I have to also say I am not a fan of removing the hero classes ... well, mostly cause I love the reaper feel. :D
Dont forget that hero classes dont just bring new skills but also a new feel.
I do like the idea of psi operatives wielding templar blades, but I would rather go the other way and have templars wield psi amp instead of the pistol. And them having some (not many 3 or 4) psi talents like ... soulfire (can upgrade to soulsteal), insanity (can upgrade schism), fortress and maybe mind merge or fuse.
Did seem kinda weird that the people who focused on psi powers used a pistol instead of ... you know ... psi powers. :D

NephilimNexus
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by NephilimNexus » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:42 am

Sparky79 wrote:Sorry, I have to also say I am not a fan of removing the hero classes ... well, mostly cause I love the reaper feel. :D

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Put Reaper clothes on your Sharpshooter. Done.

That was easy.

Skrimishers? Someone made a mod for adding Advent trooper heads into the game within a month of it's release. Heck, LW2 itself uses that head for the Advent Generals.

"Feel," from what I've seen described, is art assets that are already in the game and can be used by anyone. Want to dress your troops up as Reapers, Skirmishers or Templars? Then do it. It's all just part of that ever growing costume kit, now.

I don't honestly see what the big deal is. I tried WotC, got as far as hunting down the second Chosen, said "OK I'm bored now" and went back to playing basic LW2. This - LW2 - feels more like a complete expansion/game rewrite than WotC does. Honestly, all Firaxis did was recycle the "Three big bad bosses" routine from Alien Hunters, make some new art assets and slap together a trio of not-very-well thought out and hardly original "hero" classes to fight them with. Then they decided to hire half the cast of Star Trek NG to do the voice acting, because apparently that automatically makes it cool or something(?). Oh, and then they added a zombie level. Because of course they did. Because apparently one is no longer even allowed to release a game on Steam anymore without including a mandatory zombie level. Thems the rules, folks.

Sorry, but WotC looks & feels like it was designed by a 14 year old. I want grueling, tense guerilla warfare and pressure, not a Saturday morning cartoon. I'm surprised Firaxis hasn't tried to sell us action figures or lunch boxes yet.

So as I went back to playing LW2 - the far better product, in my mind - the most I credit that I could muster for WotC was to say "Maybe we could fine a way to add some of those new powers to the already existing classes here?" Past that I felt the whole thing could just slide itself into my recycle bin for all I cared. Thus I went through the whole WotC package, picked out the salvageable parts, thought of ways LW2 could use them, and then tossed the rest of out.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Jacke
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Jacke » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:14 am

NephilimNexus wrote:I want grueling, tense guerilla warfare and pressure, not a Saturday morning cartoon. I'm surprised Firaxis hasn't tried to sell us action figures or lunch boxes yet.

So as I went back to playing LW2 - the far better product, in my mind - the most I credit that I could muster for WotC was to say "Maybe we could fine a way to add some of those new powers to the already existing classes here?" Past that I felt the whole thing could just slide itself into my recycle bin for all I cared. Thus I went through the whole WotC package, picked out the salvageable parts, thought of ways LW2 could use them, and then tossed the rest of out.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think action figures and lunch boxes need more wide-market appeal and guaranteed volume of sales.

I've got a lot of sympathy for your view, NephilimNexus. Between LW1 and Grimy's Moral Mod (which I was testing with LW2) you could say Firaxis copied over the fatigue system too; does it add slots to the Bar like Grimy's so your weary soldiers can drink to dull the pain?

As much as I can judge WotC without having played it, I think I'm tending to agree there's more depth to LW2. And much to be hoped for if we ever see a combination.
NephilimNexus wrote:"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
A classic quote on design and editting. I think it can also be applied to LW2, which I think has too many character classes and too many perks to decided between. I would have preferred a smaller number of classes with greater selection of primary and secondary weapons would have been better.

JulianSkies
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by JulianSkies » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:51 pm

Jacke wrote:I've got a lot of sympathy for your view, NephilimNexus. Between LW1 and Grimy's Moral Mod (which I was testing with LW2) you could say Firaxis copied over the fatigue system too; does it add slots to the Bar like Grimy's so your weary soldiers can drink to dull the pain?
Fun fact that both JL and Jake mentioned before.
The Long War 1's Fatigue system was actually in the game already, Jake just didn't find a way to implement it the way he wanted. What JL and crew did was build upon what Firaxis had already done.

Sparky79
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Sparky79 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:37 pm

NephilimNexus wrote:
Sparky79 wrote:Sorry, I have to also say I am not a fan of removing the hero classes ... well, mostly cause I love the reaper feel. :D

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Put Reaper clothes on your Sharpshooter. Done.

That was easy.
So easy it makes me wonder if you even played WotC as you say.
Only thing a Reaper shares with Sharpshooter is the shape of their gun and 2 or 3 "AWC" talents.
It is much closer to shinobi, stealth build.

As for the feel ...
Well there is the filter - you know, the night vision effect
high mobility in stealth
minimal detection radius and that you can make them hack lamp-post (which was specialist exclusive)
setting up explosions from stealth and staying in stealth
stealth clean up with flanking
the "oh shit, this better work and kill the guy" button

Noober
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Noober » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:50 pm

Please don't even try to put reaper into LW - this class is just insanely OP even for WoTC.

justdont
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by justdont » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:16 pm

I pretty much agree with the general assessment that there's significant overlap of roles between existing LW2 classes and WoTC stuff - however, in my opinion, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's WoTC stuff that has to go.

It took LW1 a great deal of time to balance out all of its normal soldier classes so that all had their place in the roster - but still, quite a lot of LW1 perks weren't too interesting; there were simply way too many of them. And then despite all the balancing, MEC classes in LW1 are still largely redundant and overlapping, and you can freely cherry-pick a class or two and ditch the rest, depending on your personal style.

So it might be an option for LW2 as well - leave some things overlapping and redundant, and so the player will be able to choose depending on his playstyle. Or cut a number of things, sure - but again, I don't think it's WoTC new content that should be automatically cut away, a number of LW2 class balancing approaches, like separate Technical class still feel quite unnatural and overdesigned to me.

justdont
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by justdont » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:17 pm

Noober wrote:Please don't even try to put reaper into LW - this class is just insanely OP even for WoTC.
All hero classes are "insanely OP" in WoTC. Especially so with right extra perks. But then again, your normal soldiers with right extra perks are "insanely OP" as well.

Noober
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Noober » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:41 pm

justdont wrote:
Noober wrote:Please don't even try to put reaper into LW - this class is just insanely OP even for WoTC.
All hero classes are "insanely OP" in WoTC. Especially so with right extra perks. But then again, your normal soldiers with right extra perks are "insanely OP" as well.
No one is even close to the reaper - I have a post with some details. The ability to solo missions without killing, killing the entire midgame pods close to explosive objects and keep concealment and the ability to kill the entire boss pod in 1 action at colonel can only be done by this class.

JulianSkies
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by JulianSkies » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:54 pm

Noober wrote:
justdont wrote:
Noober wrote:Please don't even try to put reaper into LW - this class is just insanely OP even for WoTC.
All hero classes are "insanely OP" in WoTC. Especially so with right extra perks. But then again, your normal soldiers with right extra perks are "insanely OP" as well.
No one is even close to the reaper - I have a post with some details. The ability to solo missions without killing, killing the entire midgame pods close to explosive objects and keep concealment and the ability to kill the entire boss pod in 1 action at colonel can only be done by this class.
Killing an entire boss pod in one action... AHAHAHAHA. In LW2? Really? Banish can't crit, using the progression it does in WotC (+1 damage a tier) but using the LW2 tiers (5 of them), Banish deals, once per fight, 49 damage, susceptible to armor 7 times.
I think you might be able to kill a muton elite. Maybe. Meanwhile my Gunner can deal the same amount, in the same tier, whenever he didn't need to move, or 2/3rds when he does.
Edit: oh, wait, the homing mine. Then it's 57 damage single target. About half that Sectopod, I guess. And you've scratched those 25 HP guys nearby.

Noober
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Noober » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:36 pm

1. BS round = +5*6 damage. In WoTC it is 5 * 7 with appropriate Skirmish res. order.
2. Shot from conceal ignore 2 armor and all 6 shots are consider from conceal.
3. Shred skill will shred up to 3 armor with each shot. If any is left after homing mines.
4. You can use up to 2 home mines and each - with 9 dmg and 2 shred.

So we have (7 min + 3 BS)*6 + 9*2 = 60+18 = 78 dmg. All armor was shredered before second shot.
And 18 dmg 4 shred to others in that pod. LW 2 Officers will survive that but others will be near dead.
Only a 100 HP LW2 Sectopod could survive that.
On 60HP Cyber annihilate will additionally kills 1 or two other ayys from that pod.

JulianSkies
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by JulianSkies » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:35 pm

Noober wrote:1. BS round = +5*6 damage. In WoTC it is 5 * 7 with appropriate Skirmish res. order.
2. Shot from conceal ignore 2 armor and all 6 shots are consider from conceal.
3. Shred skill will shred up to 3 armor with each shot. If any is left after homing mines.
4. You can use up to 2 home mines and each - with 9 dmg and 2 shred.

So we have (7 min + 3 BS)*6 + 9*2 = 60+18 = 78 dmg. All armor was shredered before second shot.
And 18 dmg 4 shred to others in that pmod. LW 2 Officers will survive that but others will be near dead.
Only a 100 HP LW2 Sectopod could survive that.
On 60HP Cyber annihilate will additionally kills 1 or two other ayys from that pod.
Remember that Gatekeepers have a 30% damage reduction (straight up damage reduction not armor) when closed, most likely state, so they still survive a Banish.
Also stating, a Gunner with similar setup can also annihilate a single target like that, or delete one entire pod with the cone attack, all of that doable more than once.
Let's also not forget LW2's higher of density, vanilla base game tends to have three pods in a map, this mod has a fair bit more unless you're doing an Ex.Light.

So okay, you can nuke one pod with one boss monster in it. So can other classes. And they can do it more often, even. Let's not even comment on late game double sectopod pods or multiple superheavy MECs.

Noober
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Noober » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:52 pm

Well in terms of boss killing there is nothing better then Kubikuri-crit sniper. And it doesn't matter how many HP - 100 or 10 000.
But sharpshooter doesn't have 1 tile visibility radius and can't kill and stay concealed at the same time as the reaper can.
And yes, travers fire-RF gunner will out-dps the reaper in VL+ mission but he will break concealment immediately.

JulianSkies
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by JulianSkies » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:59 pm

Noober wrote:Well in terms of boss killing there is nothing better then Kubikuri-crit sniper. And it doesn't matter how many HP - 100 or 10 000.
But sharpshooter doesn't have 1 tile visibility radius and can't kill and stay concealed at the same time as the reaper can.
And yes, travers fire-RF gunner will out-dps the reaper in VL+ mission but he will break concealment immediately.
Just reiterating my point that the only leg anyone has to stand on to complain about Reaper in LW2 is the very reduced detection range, our current classes do everything other than concealment better or at least just as good and more often.

And even the concealment thing the Reaper does much better in a different manner, you're something other than a walking camera, there's actual gameplay to that concealment whereas shinobis either do nothing but stand still or give up concealment, hence why it just feels more fun, even if the claymore was reduced to 2 damage it'd still be more fun concealment gameplay.

I'm curious what is going to happen here, there are certainly a lot of ideas, of concepts, that I think would just make LW2 better by being implemented in all of the faction classes.

LordYanaek
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by LordYanaek » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:09 pm

Noober wrote: But sharpshooter doesn't have 1 tile visibility radius and can't kill and stay concealed at the same time as the reaper can.
Of course he can't, and he doesn't have to either, he's 2 dashes away from the closest enemy :lol:

Once again Reaper is strong but calling it overpowered is ignoring that every soldier becomes OP in XCOM (more so in WotC, to that i have to agree) and LW2 is a different game (it goes further than an expansion pack so i consider it a totally different game) and what's OP in XCOM2 is probably just good enough for LW2s standards.
JulianSkies wrote:Just reiterating my point that the only leg anyone has to stand on to complain about Reaper in LW2 is the very reduced detection range, our current classes do everything other than concealment better or at least just as good and more often.
Agreed, that part is completely ridiculous.

JulianSkies
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by JulianSkies » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:45 pm

LordYanaek wrote:
JulianSkies wrote:Just reiterating my point that the only leg anyone has to stand on to complain about Reaper in LW2 is the very reduced detection range, our current classes do everything other than concealment better or at least just as good and more often.
Agreed, that part is completely ridiculous.
I will be honest, you call it ridiculous and it probably is but... It feels like I can do the exact same thing with a stealth shinobi. Like, the only thing I need to do is take wider paths but otherwise I can do all the same things. Especially if I go full stealth. I'm not saying it isn't ridiculous, but it doesn't feel too different from what shinobis can already do. But I don't trust my own judgement there.

Torquemada
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Torquemada » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:58 am

Call me xenophobic but I think XCOM should really be focused on XCOM, not some weird resistance factions.

WOTC introduces a cool new concept of "squad auxiliaries", soldiers that join your team but you don't get to equip or choose skills. I think this is the best way to use the new resistance faction soldiers, have them show up with randomized skills to avoid really imbalanced builds.

They shouldn't show up depending on resistance orders, this would be a no-brainer since they're really powerful. A utility item that is lost after a mission is over would be ideal.

Psieye
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by Psieye » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:18 am

I can see the backlash to the incendiary nerf will look like child's play when Pavonis decides what LWotC will do with the new classes. Time for people to learn how to mod so they can play LWotC how they want regardless of the official design decisions.

With regards to "Reaper is OP", I've never given mine much attention beyond "I'm watching pods who walked back into the fog of war". I prefer my Skirmisher when I want to break the tactical layer: much more of a team player. The Templar might have done similar team plays but I did Lost & Abandoned so they were really late to join my campaign (i.e. after Mox got fast-track promotion Covert Actions).
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd

JulianSkies
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Re: Dissolving the hero classes into LW2: A proposal

Post by JulianSkies » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:56 am

Psieye wrote:I can see the backlash to the incendiary nerf will look like child's play when Pavonis decides what LWotC will do with the new classes. Time for people to learn how to mod so they can play LWotC how they want regardless of the official design decisions.

With regards to "Reaper is OP", I've never given mine much attention beyond "I'm watching pods who walked back into the fog of war". I prefer my Skirmisher when I want to break the tactical layer: much more of a team player. The Templar might have done similar team plays but I did Lost & Abandoned so they were really late to join my campaign (i.e. after Mox got fast-track promotion Covert Actions).
Templar absolutely can do some amazing plays, with some speed buffing it's basically a stronger version of a Sharpshooter in what it can do to an enemy, and between their invert and amplification if you want something really dead and it has to be right now boy they got some solutions for you.

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