If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

justdont
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:36 pm

If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by justdont » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:08 pm

One of the things that I very much dislike about XCOM2 (both vanilla and LW2) is how the game handles scouting from concealment, and basically gives you a choice between not fighting with this soldier to keep scouting or going out of concealment to fight. This, in my opinion, turned out to be an extremely poor design decision - it's not very fun to keep a soldier away from action just to scout ahead, the AI is not equipped with anything to counteract protracted concealment, and it creates a whole bunch of balance faults - like the ability to stealth or even solo-stealth through the mission, which, in my opinion, simply doesn't have any place in a game such as XCOM (doubly so because detection mechanics in the game are primitive and basic).

I'd very much like to see a maybe "soldiers that can affect strategic level vs. soldiers that can affect only tactical level and are more powerful at it" distinction, but none of that "invisible soldiers" bullshit. LW1 was pretty fine with covert op soldiers being just armed with a pistol (but you took that penalty anyway due to strategic layer reasons), but in LW2 you're having your invisible ninjas doing mostly nothing but giving you all the map information you need in advance. Oh, and holo-sniper was a decent idea, but still not very fun, mostly because it ended too "stitched up", with lots of contradicting ideas (it's a scout but it has to carry unwieldy long-range weapon, it's a pretty unique "buff other people" soldier but with only 1 perk choice per level and no suitable perk at MSGT, its equipment needs corpses that may be ungodly rare, etc).

In my opinion, it would make a better game if concealment will be limited strictly to the entire squad, and barring very special circumstances, to a maximum of 1 use per mission (you blow your cover once, and it really stays that way).

JulianSkies
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:17 am

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by JulianSkies » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:29 pm

To be honest WotC resolves the "Soldier either fights or conceals" but giving you the Reaper, that fights from concealment.
I'm 100% certain PI can make a fun-to-play Reaper that doesn't make their testers have a heart attack.

Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Phaseless » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:57 am

Maybe you're just too good for the game. I get blown out of concealment constantly by drones and resurrected dead soldiers. Tap of the hat to you.

justdont
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by justdont » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:02 pm

Phaseless wrote:Maybe you're just too good for the game. I get blown out of concealment constantly by drones and resurrected dead soldiers. Tap of the hat to you.
If you keep your scout a good distance away from your team and in a corner cover (cover towards the unknown and towards your team's position), then it never really becomes a problem. Unless there's Vigilance event going on - here indeed it's sometimes a problem.
JulianSkies wrote:To be honest WotC resolves the "Soldier either fights or conceals" but giving you the Reaper, that fights from concealment.
And it's even worse because AI is still absolutely helpless against it.

Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Phaseless » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:23 pm

Is this actually such a Problem that the game feels unbalanced to you?
Because I can understand that once you figure out how to remain concealed with your Scouts, the AI has Little Options against you - at least on missions where there are no timers.

I still don't see how it's supposed to be too easy on missions where you have to move. You Need more time to Infiltrate for a Scout who can't carry their weight in firepower but is exclusively there so you don't get flanked and shot to pieces. Maybe it's because I played less than 50 hours worth of LW2, but I personally am seeing myself challenged for a looong time.

justdont
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by justdont » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:42 pm

Phaseless wrote:Is this actually such a Problem that the game feels unbalanced to you?
It's not a balance issue. Pavonis' team tried to balance concealment, and did a reasonably good job at it. But ultimately it's still not very fun to play: AI can't deal with your invisible soldiers, playing pure stealth is outright boring (due to very simple mechanic that can't really compete with normal tactical gameplay complexity), and the choice "keep your soldier away from the action if you want to keep scouting" is just unfun if you're restricted mostly to running around while concealed; and hard to balance if you have more interesting abilities (like WoTC demonstrated us with Reapers).

Compared to vanilla, LW2 fixed a number of really bad concealment abuses, but on the other hand it increased reliance on scouting quite severely due to yellow alert system.

LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by LordYanaek » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:24 pm

justdont wrote: It's not a balance issue. Pavonis' team tried to balance concealment, and did a reasonably good job at it. But ultimately it's still not very fun to play for me
There, corrected for you ;)
AI can't deal with your invisible soldiers, playing pure stealth is outright boring (due to very simple mechanic that can't really compete with normal tactical gameplay complexity), and the choice "keep your soldier away from the action if you want to keep scouting" is just unfun if you're restricted mostly to running around while concealed; and hard to balance if you have more interesting abilities (like WoTC demonstrated us with Reapers).
Then give them some options. LW2 already uses sound, give some ADVENT guys battle scanners and when they hear a shot coming from an area where they don't see anyone, they throw it at their turn.
In HQ missions where players just abuse Stealth + Sniper have some RNFs drop on player's position. In addition if ADVENT start being shot from "Elder's know where" and they don't see anyone, they throw some battle scanners around to try and spot your scout (they are not totally dumb, they know something is wrong).
Drones might be given Scanning Protocol and use it if something suspicious happens so if you really want to play stealth and snipe you have to make sure you took the drones out first.
All those ideas would require some work to implement but none would require a complete rebuilding of the engine.

WotC have introduced some new tools Pavonis could re-use to make stealth more interesting such as the locked doors with "bypass security" reward (you don't get revealed if you get that reward, you are otherwise) or Alert level (when you rescue captured soldiers) changing the detection radius.

Reapers might be OP in WotC, just like everyone else BTW, but imagine him in a LW2 environment and he's much better balanced. Banish is some sort of 1/mission Kubikiri, just worse. Claymore is 1/mission until pretty late (and high rank LW2 classes are very powerful) so with the larger number of enemies it won't be such a game breaker, especially considering it will be affected by the global explosives nerf. That means you have a low damage soldier who's good at finishing enemies while staying concealed. He solves the "scout or fight" issue but depends on the rest of the squad for real fighting.

Just nerf his stupid 1-tile detection range and change Remote Trigger so it's neither useless most of the time nor OP once or twice per campaign and you'll have a very interesting soldier.

Re : LW1.
You didn't play a Scout with Hit and Run and Mimetic Skin or an Assault with Mimetic Skin and Close Combat Specialist did you?

Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Phaseless » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:49 pm

I myself find the shinobi interesting to play with. I enjoy scouting with him and having a backup ace in the sleeve in case I really need something gone. But as I said, I admit that subtle weak points only start hurting when you put serious time into a game, and concealment might be one.

Psieye
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:27 am

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Psieye » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:02 pm

LordYanaek wrote:give some ADVENT guys battle scanners and when they hear a shot coming from an area where they don't see anyone, they throw it at their turn.
Make lamp posts use Scanning Protocol.

Let ADVENT guys call a 1-drone reinforcement that can cast Scanning Protocol.

Give some aliens true-sight, which WotC added as a Chosen strength.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd

JulianSkies
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:17 am

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by JulianSkies » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:17 pm

Psieye wrote:
LordYanaek wrote:give some ADVENT guys battle scanners and when they hear a shot coming from an area where they don't see anyone, they throw it at their turn.
Make lamp posts use Scanning Protocol.

Let ADVENT guys call a 1-drone reinforcement that can cast Scanning Protocol.

Give some aliens true-sight, which WotC added as a Chosen strength.
I'm not a fan of enemy scanners, they're such a hard counter to your scout that it basically makes that unit unviable to bring in missions where scanners exist (a concealed scout is far from the rest of the team by design, if it can get hard revealed like that it's going to get killed the moment you actually start doing your job). Needs to find a better solution.
To be honest the only problem with concealment is Squadsight, any attack from beyond visual range will break any AI, hell it breaks human behaviours as well check all the hate for snipers in fps multiplayer games.

Psieye
Posts: 829
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:27 am

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Psieye » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:46 pm

JulianSkies wrote:a concealed scout is far from the rest of the team by design, if it can get hard revealed like that it's going to get killed the moment you actually start doing your job)
While I disagree that a concealed scout has to be far from the team, it's certainly over-restrictive if nothing else changed. There's options though if we want to brainstorm, like "Interrupt-style free movement-only action when revealed on enemy turn" together with "cooldown-based Conceal skill".
JulianSkies wrote: To be honest the only problem with concealment is Squadsight, any attack from beyond visual range will break any AI, hell it breaks human behaviours as well check all the hate for snipers in fps multiplayer games.
It's the one thing that's more broken in LW2 than vanilla WotC - squadsight aim. I wouldn't mind if (provided more classes could equip a holo or outright have holo-targetting) squadsight aim penalties were harsh for targets not holo'd or scanned. If that went through, holo could be tweaked to not end turn.

Though I don't think squadsight is the only thing that concealment makes easy. I suppose OW traps only need sound, not visual confirmation to set up.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd

Greslin
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:02 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Greslin » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:59 pm

Phaseless wrote:I myself find the shinobi interesting to play with. I enjoy scouting with him and having a backup ace in the sleeve in case I really need something gone. But as I said, I admit that subtle weak points only start hurting when you put serious time into a game, and concealment might be one.
TBH, I ended up modding a whole bunch of NEW stealth mechanics into my LW2 build. I'd find the game terribly boring if all I could do on every mission was to go in shooting. Then again, I'm also a Metal Gear Solid fan, so there ya go.

I completely agree that ADVENT could always be smarter. In some situations, tripping an alarm or patrol should absolutely bring the whole place down on your head, rather than simply pique the curiosity of some random pod that happened to see it. But the answer there isn't to make concealment/stealth approaches less feasible, but to increase the penalties of getting caught.

I'll admit, I've done too many stealth jailbreaks that basically boil down to walking in the back door and walking out with a prisoner. ADVENT's security is a joke. But as long as their security is garbage, I should be able to take advantage of it. This IS war, after all.

justdont
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:36 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by justdont » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:21 pm

LordYanaek wrote:Re : LW1.
You didn't play a Scout with Hit and Run and Mimetic Skin or an Assault with Mimetic Skin and Close Combat Specialist did you?
I did. Then I (and many others) complained on nexus forums about it being a balance breach. Then they nerfed Mimetic Skin to the ground, and it was a right decision.

LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by LordYanaek » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:44 pm

justdont wrote:Then they nerfed Mimetic Skin to the ground, and it was a right decision.
When did that nerf occur? It was still incredibly powerful when i played LW1 and i think there was only 1 final patch after the version i played.

Swiftless
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Swiftless » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:06 pm

I agree that there's probably a better approach so that stealth isn't quite so binary but honestly I prefer the stealth play of the game. You seem to be taking the line that just because you don't find it fun in some part due to your own tastes and because of some somewhat clunky mechanics that it should just be removed from the game.

I play a heavily modified version where stealth is the order of the day (LW2 tactical suppressors, true concealment). For me it doesn't make sense to go toe-to-toe against a vastly superior force and removes the immersion of the idea that you're a rebel force trying to fight the giant evil overlords that can snuff you out with a thought. From my viewpoint an Xcom 2 without stealth is a completely different game.

As someone above me pointed out it has some really good merits and provides multiple tactical decisions to the game that if removed would create a lot of monotony in the tactical layer.

Phrozehn
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Phrozehn » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:38 pm

I like the dea of giv No towers and or drones Scanning Protocol. I also like the dea and f alerted pods potentially even having no battle scanners. To solve the problem of scouts then being instagibbed should they be unlucky enough to be near one of those we could simply set things so that SP/BS always happens at the end of the turn. That way you lose that stealth but aren't dead without a chance to react to it. It'd be fair AND discourage super risky scouting on the other side of the map from your squad. It'd still be doable BEFORE you've engaged but would severely discourage sniper shinaniggins.

Come to think of it this is even better than I thought. Started with only considering the impact this change would have for perpetual scouting and now I realize it'd be a great nerf to sniper cheese!

User avatar
SonnyWiFiHr
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:57 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:24 pm

NO. I like to sneak and ambush. I even have overwatch specialists.
Burning aliens is my favorite pass time.
Gun blazing mission is only possible if you have support of artillery. If you can't pin down enemy they will fire at you.

RAMBO is sneaky. Not sure about Chuck Norris . Terminators -sneaky.Ha even Harry Potter is sneaky
The Preacher

User avatar
8wayz
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:59 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by 8wayz » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:24 am

@Greslin

Have you played any of the hack/get to the objective/save prisoner missions in War of the Chosen ?

They have changed the pod placement so all entrances to the building are covered by a pod (usually there are 2, so 2 different pods) and you can not even sneak in with a Reaper. The pods never move before they are triggered. Even then, they stay in the vicinity of the entrance. The only way in is via a window, and that way you break concealment.

I find that a very good change actually. It makes you take a look at the whole building and check the local topography.

Granted, in Long War 2 there is now the Shaped Charge, but if that one can be changed to make a lot more sound, then sneaking in will be more difficult. Or you can simply use a rocket to blow up part of the building and quickly get in and get out.

Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Phaseless » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:12 am

Wait planting and detonating that shaped Charge Thing does not break concealment?
oooohhhh... there have been so many missions where this would have been Handy...

User avatar
8wayz
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:59 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by 8wayz » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:24 am

I haven't used it in a while, and possibly it was changed with the new patch. I will give it a go tonight and get back to you.

The idea behind it was to sneak into buildings when the doors have all been bolted down by guards. :)

Phaseless
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:06 am

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Phaseless » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:33 am

Knocking down walls without too much Attention... a cheat almost ;)

LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by LordYanaek » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:29 pm

Shaped charge is the most noisy item in the entire game, more than a Rocket!

You can definitely sneak a Reaper inside the prisons in WotC (i did it each time) but you get revealed as soon as you grab the downed soldier so you can't sneak out. It's usually possible to just throw the evac immediately at the front gate and dash out but it could be fixed by changing the rules for placing the evac (LW does this on multiple missions already).
Swiftless wrote:For me it doesn't make sense to go toe-to-toe against a vastly superior force and removes the immersion of the idea that you're a rebel force trying to fight the giant evil overlords that can snuff you out with a thought. From my viewpoint an Xcom 2 without stealth is a completely different game.
Agreed entirely and that's one of the things LW2 did the right way by reducing the amount of "kill them all" missions and using unlimited RNFs in most (if not all) missions.
Stealth is just natural continuation and i think LW2 could definitely have more stealth rather than less, but it would have to be improved and more interesting than just running around while avoiding pods. The Reaper goes a long way to make stealth more interesting in WotC but stays more balanced than just giving everyone with high damage weapons a silent kill mechanism like Musashi did in his mod.
True concealment would be nice to have on some missions but not all of them to increase variety. The way WotC did it with a global resistance order isn't the best idea in my opinion.
Finally, some non-lethal, low sound, weapons that can disable ADVENT soldiers for some time without breaking concealment could also be interesting. They would give you an option to "buy some turns" without being noticed at the cost of only temporarily disabling enemies rather than removing them for good but breaking concealment (it could be justified by ADVENT psi network being alerted if a soldier dies).

It's not really an issue if some classes are much better at stealth and are required for some stealthy missions as long as there's other missions for more conventional "firepower" approach where the usual combat classes shine.

User avatar
SonnyWiFiHr
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:57 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:47 pm

Guys use Stealth overhaul if you don't like default LW2. It is quite fun to use throving knife/supresors and easier. I can guarantee that you will be happy to stealth with Stealth overhaul.
The Preacher

Greslin
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:02 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by Greslin » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:53 pm

8wayz wrote:@Greslin

Have you played any of the hack/get to the objective/save prisoner missions in War of the Chosen ?
I have, and you're right.

I'll admit, I had a lot of misgivings about WOTC, but so far I've been pleasantly surprised by the improved mechanics. Problem is, I'm used to the pacing of LW/LW2, so everything now feels WAY sped up, and that's putting me off. I like a lot more granularity in my XCOM gameplay, and I fear that castrating the stealth and infiltration factors in LW2 would just kill it for me.

The thing I really like about the infiltration mechanic, for example, is that I have to make a conscious choice to put a squad out of action for a bit for a larger goal. That makes me stop and really think, and do some risk assessment. Does it make sense to put the A-Team on an HQ assault for 10 days when I've got a UFO hunter flying around? Or when I might have some sort of critical mission, such as an alien relay op that stops a major dark event? I like that feeling of "oh crap, I needed those guys and now I'm stuck with three squaddies and a rook."

Same deal with stealth. I play LW2 with True Conceal and Tactical Suppressors, among with many others, and unlike what some suggest, I don't find that it makes the game easier at all. What it does is throw some of the decision making to infiltration (i.e., the strategic layer), encourage me to go in with smaller teams, and increases the risk of a screwup. It makes a lot of the missions tougher, actually.

It's like what Sid himself said, that "fun" is basically all about having to make interesting decisions. LW2, with full stealth and infiltration mechanics, forces me to make tough but interesting decisions. I'd really, really hate to lose that.

User avatar
SonnyWiFiHr
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:57 pm

Re: If we'll get LW for WoTC, can we have (much) less concealment in it?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:59 pm

If you are lucky you can have easier mission. Killing the drone for example. Not a great task but important if you are 12 turns from target.
I did not write easy.
The Preacher

Post Reply