Crippling RNG, no agency.

[8wayz]

Can you provide us with a save game ? Advent hitting on all of their shots does sound worrying.

[nmkaplan]

I agree that what you're describing goes a little bit beyond RNG, assuming no confirmation bias on your part. What mods are you using?

[Tac1]

Don't have a save, unfortunately.

As for mods, mostly cosmetics. Gotcha Again, Perfect Information, Overwatch All/others, Additional Icons, LW2 A Better AWC, Cost Based Ability Colours, Commander's Choice, Evac All, Smooth Scrolling, and the rest is just cosmetics.

[Phaseless]

You actually reinstalled your base game and your mods right? Strange. Might be that there are some files floating around which didn't get properly deleted. But something's definitely off here. Maybe someone could post all the folders where xcom2 and long war 2 drop or create files so you can do a proper uninstall.

[Tac1]

Full-reinstall. Took me close to an hour or so to do, too. My current game is going... better. Advent isn't missing, but at least they haven't done anything worse than 1 damage grazes. Somehow one operative was shot five times in one turn and didn't panic. Still can't get a grenade to damage over 2, though. Drones are giving me a headache.

[LordYanaek]

Sorry to hear about your struggles against RNGesus Tac1
When i listen to my scientific formation, i don't believe in luck. Unpredictability yes, but luck no.
When i see some friends play DnD i definitely believe in luck
I know someone who can roll a 6 sided and 20 sided die and will get more on the 6 sided one for half of the rolls

I doubt mods could have an effect on the RNG apart from a few ones that specifically alter the to-hit calculation (Reliable Damage and EU-Hit chances are the ones that comes to my mind). Corrupted files might be an issue but a simple steam validation should solve that, even more a full reinstall

But in General, I feel like graze band reduces RNG. Why? Because hits in General are more likely. You have to anticipate taking Little amounts of damage because of grazes. Ablative stuff lets you take some hits without consequence, and even beyong that, you often take minor damage which you can heal or at least survive. Without graze band, soldiers would die more often, especially to single shots because Overall damage will be higher per shot.

It took me some time to learn to appreciate it but i feel like Phaseless. Going back to vanilla (WotC actually) after LW2 convinced me after loosing 2 soldiers in full cover to crits from an Advent Captain and realizing in LW2 it would almost certainly have been grazes.
Actually, the graze band goes in the same direction as the Reliable Damage mod, but with a less extreme implementation. It makes the overall damage distribution smoother (or more normalized) by reducing (or eliminating) the chance to miss completely on high hit chance and reducing (or eliminating) the chance to hit for full damage on very low chance to hit shots. Unfortunately the UI doesn't do it justice because a shot that's wrongly showed as 100% by the UI can graze so players feel like the Graze Band is "robbing" them some of their chance to hit while actually it "gives" as much as it "takes" and just changes the damage distribution without increasing or decreasing average damage dealt or taken.

Still can't get a grenade to damage over 2, though. Drones are giving me a headache.

Might be a stupid question but you know that damage falls off from the center don't you? So you'll only ever deal the maximum damage to the guy in the center of the explosion without special perks.
Drones can be painful early. One way to deal with them is to have a specialist with combat protocol (100% chance to deal 4-5 damage will remove early drones with no chance to miss) but CP becomes quite moot later. A grenade to shred them followed by a shotgun at close range usually works for me but sometimes they can be really annoying AP rounds are a blessing against them once you can get them. I try to have at least one soldier with AP in every squad early, preferrably a high aim one. A Snapshot sharpshooter is very good as their minimal damage is 4 (unless they graze) but not everyone likes snapshoters.

[nmkaplan]

I was also going to ask if he knew about the grenade damage fall-off. For max damage you need to exactly center the grenade over the dude you want to blow up. You're very likely to do more than 2 damage otherwise.

Rockets work the same way

Grenadiers and Technicals have a perk called Tandem Warheads that negate this effect, though normal RNG for damage on explosives still applies.

[Tac1]

I absolutely do know that, yes. As much as I try to be as effective as possible, I can't catch a break.

Hilarious enough, I did that just my last session of D&D. Trying to kill a Zombie, last point of health, and I managed to roll a 1 (1d6) on every attack for six turns straight, and 5e's 'Undead Fortitude' nonsense allowed it to shrug all that off.

-

Currently on my 9th run through Gatecrasher, I am beginning to just hate this process.

Had a Drone spot my XCOM through a wall, for some reason. Advent trooper, flashed and firing through high cover, hits for 4 damage on a 8% to hit. Another Trooper hits for 3 on a 5%, and kills the same man. Grenade the drone, center tile, for 2 damage. Fire three flanking shots, 75%, 92%, and 83%, and only the 92% hit, for a damn graze. I swear, I could cheat and would still lose.

Though my favourite is the two shots at 85% that both grazed on the 9% instead.

[SonnyWiFiHr]

Turn on red fog.

[Tac1]

I have. I honestly expected it to make more of a difference. Reduced an Officer from 6 to 1 health, barely made a dent. 20 off his aim sure, but he still had no trouble consistently landing shots. I think I'm gonna be done for the day. Watching that same Officer survive 5 shots at 15-30% to hit and 20% to graze on each is making my scalp tingle in bad ways. I haven't had a Gatecrasher yet that didn't leave half the squad out for the first month and at least two dead.

[SonnyWiFiHr]

25% is 0% as usual

[8wayz]

You should really either make a video of your next Gatecrasher or provide us with a save game.

That sounds epic in more ways than one.

Concerning the graze band -

The mechanic by itself is great. Its integration and balancing in Long War 2 however makes it heavily favour the AI.

- Your soldiers can have negative Dodge, while the aliens always have a positive one. Moreover, some of them have a really high Dodge stat (25+). To make this even worse, pod composition often times puts 2-3 aliens with High Dodge together, while in the best case you will probably have 1 soldier per squad with a very good Dodge.
- They have better defences and numbers against you (including their Dodge stat). This means that you will take more shots at a single alien on average to take them down, while they often drop your soldiers with a single shot. Hence, you will get more grazes and misses than expected.
- The graze band does not effect Psi abilities as far as I know. Considering that the aliens employ earlier and in greater numbers Psi units, you will be at a disadvantage against them with the graze band activated. Granted, most of the Psi abilities early game are crowd control ones, but you will still respond to that Psi alien by shooting/slashing and thus rolling on the graze band.

It would be great if you could have aliens with low dodge stat and less High Dodge ones. The current balance in pod composition just abuses the graze band in my opinion.

[SonnyWiFiHr]

I always lose -10 defense -10 dodge rookies . You can't help them. Right now to save Private (all last names) I m forced to play only with bombs.
Just bomb the Advent don't shoot at them - you can shoot them in April. Roasted. Fire to roast.
One question.
How many supplies you can get from hacking large supply cache on Smash an Grab?
I had 75 (hack) + 83 + 6 alloys .
Is this right ?
I think it should be 40

[Phaseless]

You should really either make a video of your next Gatecrasher or provide us with a save game.

That sounds epic in more ways than one.

Concerning the graze band -

The mechanic by itself is great. Its integration and balancing in Long War 2 however makes it heavily favour the AI.

- Your soldiers can have negative Dodge, while the aliens always have a positive one. Moreover, some of them have a really high Dodge stat (25+). To make this even worse, pod composition often times puts 2-3 aliens with High Dodge together, while in the best case you will probably have 1 soldier per squad with a very good Dodge.
- They have better defences and numbers against you (including their Dodge stat). This means that you will take more shots at a single alien on average to take them down, while they often drop your soldiers with a single shot. Hence, you will get more grazes and misses than expected.
- The graze band does not effect Psi abilities as far as I know. Considering that the aliens employ earlier and in greater numbers Psi units, you will be at a disadvantage against them with the graze band activated. Granted, most of the Psi abilities early game are crowd control ones, but you will still respond to that Psi alien by shooting/slashing and thus rolling on the graze band.

It would be great if you could have aliens with low dodge stat and less High Dodge ones. The current balance in pod composition just abuses the graze band in my opinion.

You make good Points here. I think this reinforces the Point that you really have to Play sneaky guerrilla style especially in the beginning, because you're at a big disadvantage and Need to compensate by good strategy. When you watch xwynns Play he just ploughs through the enemy ranks by careful consideration and by eliminating Chance as much as possible, meaning flanks, destroying cover, burnination (technical flamethrower is a very strong Gimmick the Aliens on the other Hand don't have early) and so on.

In other words, if you fight a trench war, you're destined to lose. That's because you are outnumbered and outgunned and that's the Setting of the game. Hit and run, flank, strike at weaknesses. IMO this all fits the narrative perfectly and it's reflected in the gameplay. And by early to mid game Transition, you get skills that let you fight trench war better, like hail of bullets, another way to get rid of Chance. Or good snipers with high ground and steady weapon who just kill an Advent in full cover.

[8wayz]

@ Phaseless

Dodge and the graze band are designed to affect you despite your playing style.

You can graze a Viper choking one of your soldiers with no cover.
You can graze or miss all your Sniper shots (with 100+ Aim soldier/s) against an advent sergeant/lieutenant/general.
The AI can crit your soldier in High Cover, with smoke and Aid Protocol on top of it, and when the alien is on 1 HP with Red Fog turned on.

The graze band accepts little to no player input and is strictly RNG based. Whatever you do, the AI will take advantage of it and do impossible things to you.

[Phaseless]

@ Phaseless

Dodge and the graze band are designed to affect you despite your playing style.

You can graze a Viper choking one of your soldiers with no cover.
You can graze or miss all your Sniper shots (with 100+ Aim soldier/s) against an advent sergeant/lieutenant/general.
The AI can crit your soldier in High Cover, with smoke and Aid Protocol on top of it, and when the alien is on 1 HP with Red Fog turned on.

The graze band accepts little to no player input and is strictly RNG based. Whatever you do, the AI will take advantage of it and do impossible things to you.

The same is true though the other way around.
The Aliens can graze or even miss you when you are out of cover
They can graze you even when they have very high aim
You can crit the AI in high cover, especially with let them have it, precision shot etc

Your assumption was that the graze band is to the great Detriment of the human Player, but I don't think it is. As others have said, it normalizes the damage and makes battle Outcomes more predictable. You have a pretty good assumption how you have to deal with enemies so your squad is safe. Kill x, Control y, z are left uncontrolled - what will happen? Is that too risky? Do I Need to come up with another plan or do I actually Need to bail out?

Also I heard xwynn say that it is not unintentional to have some RNG because else, there will almost never be surprises and FUBAR situations. As a very good Player you Need those unpredictable Outcomes from time to time so you stay invested in the emergent stories and fear for the lives of your operatives.

[8wayz]

There is a difference between some RNG and double RNG.

With the Graze Band you have two RNG rolls per attack. As shown, you will roll more times than the aliens due to their superior HP, Defense, Dodge and numbers. So you will get a lot more grazes and misses than the aliens will get against you.

On the flip side, the aliens have an easier time with the graze band thanks to negative dodge on some soldiers, Psi and other factors. So when they roll, the dice are inclined to be in their favour.

As such, doubling the RNG rolls for me is not making the game less random, but a lot more random for the player than it really should be. You can either keep the second roll and balance it better or just turn it off, like some players are doing.

[Phaseless]

There is a difference between some RNG and double RNG.

With the Graze Band you have two RNG rolls per attack. As shown, you will roll more times than the aliens due to their superior HP, Defense, Dodge and numbers. So you will get a lot more grazes and misses than the aliens will get against you.

On the flip side, the aliens have an easier time with the graze band thanks to negative dodge on some soldiers, Psi and other factors. So when they roll, the dice are inclined to be in their favour.

As such, doubling the RNG rolls for me is not making the game less random, but a lot more random for the player than it really should be. You can either keep the second roll and balance it better or just turn it off, like some players are doing.

Yes it's a roll, but it's a roll between Little damage or normal damage. Since the grace band overlaps with normal damage and no damage, it actually makes it more likely that an attack will hit. So with a 90% shot it's very unlikely that you will miss completely.

I dunno. Usually in GOps you have the numbers against them if you Play right. And in case you have to do a Mission against big numbers or you f- it up in a guerrilla Mission, you got Tools. Rockets, Area Suppression, flashbangs etc. I never leave house without a gunner and a Grenadier or technical for that reason.

If I find myself against too many opponents and I know I can't kill/Control them to my liking, I retreat and set an overwatch trap. If I am on a timer and I anticipate that the Odds are against me, I bail the hell out.

It's hard to admit defeat and retreat a Team before it's too late, but LW2 is an opportunity to learn how to deal with defeat and losses - and damage Control.

Again, I think the fact that the numbers are slightly against you fit the narrative and the Play style you should employ. You're the Underdog and Need to deal with a superior force.

[Tac1]

Personally, I see it biased. The Aliens benefit a lot more than the player does, strictly for one reason; The player goes beyond the fight. If I graze a Trooper from 3 to 1 HP, then he has 1 HP. I hit him again, he dies. Mission goes on. If he grazes my Ranger from 6 to 1 HP, that man is in medical for a month. That is a month of missions he's not involved in. If something seriously dire comes up, he isn't a resource I can make use of. The campaign, in the long run, doesn't care if that one Advent was grazed and left at death's door by the end of the mission, but it will care if my Assault is.

As for the double RNG, Darkest Dungeon had the same problem that forced a type of playstyle and made others utterly counterproductive.

Move/Attack builds, for example. Normally, your order would be - Roll turns, attack, etc. But with trying to force enemies out of position, it gets more and more RNG reliant. Instead of getting a good turn order and making attacks you now have to - Have your Bounty Hunter move first. Have him land his move attack. Have the enemy fail his resist check. Have your Attacker go next. Have him land his attack. Then roll damage. If the Bounty hunter goes after your attacker, the plan fails. If the target moves after your Bounty Hunter, plans fails. If either the attack misses or the move resisted, plan fails.

By the end, you have so much RNG stacked that even a minor failure ruins the entire process, and none of it is in your power to influence. Graze feels a lot like the same thing. When I can smoke full-cover against Advent Troopers that are flashbanged 1 HP red fogged and they still have a 20% to graze, it feels like a slap in the teeth. Yeah, they have a 3% to hit normally. But with five of them firing, odds are good one or two will nail that 1-2 damage. Given the AI's habit to focus fire, 1-2 damage two or three times is enough to leave a man in medical for a month, if not be killed outright.

Especially at the start where you have really no selection of tools to make use of, there isn't a lot you can do but flashbang and just hope the AI doesn't obliterate you purely on luck.

[Phaseless]

If I had the same experience you've had, I'd see it the same way. But I still believe firmly that your install is faulty because I haven't had a single Mission where I was dealt such a bad Hand like you've had, and I left Advent a fair amount of chances to shoot at me.

[Tac1]

Well, after two full reinstalls, I don't think that's the case. I've never had much for luck in life. I don't think I ever finished a WoW expansion with maxed gear, because I could never roll well enough to get anything after a raid. I had to re-roll my stats for my last D&D character five times because I kept rolling so low that they wouldn't even be capable of holding their own.

Maybe I should erect a shrine to RNGesus and pray daily.

[SonnyWiFiHr]

I have Battle rifle mod. They are excellent for OW ambush and yesterday I had roll and roll low RNG = 0.
10 turns for evac 8 men squad and I m moving backwards. Every turn OW for 6 turns or more. Then I burned them all - timer is low.
Advent is out cover and I miss. Taking 40% shot Advent in cover - I hit . (0 dodge 0 defense Advent judging by Perfect Information)

Nothing can prepare you for that. I need 100 offense to pull out ambush (I had few with over 70). But this match is special case not common case.
I should go with SMG + all bombs and finish that in 6 turns but I was reading a lot about class build so I tried regular fight.
My mistake. We always have April.

I m planing to sacrifice pig to god of RNG.

[Tac1]

Well, I finally got a Gatecrasher run to not end catastrophically. Took 36 turns to actually beat it. One 4-man pod and a trooper/sectoid pod at the end, we spent every turn missing each other, even on flanking shots. It was utterly idiotic and I am sore from laughing. One injury, two weeks out. But probably as good as I'll get. Not Created Equally, discovered only three of my original eight rookies didn't have minus to defense.

Fun.

[Phaseless]

Well, I finally got a Gatecrasher run to not end catastrophically. Took 36 turns to actually beat it. One 4-man pod and a trooper/sectoid pod at the end, we spent every turn missing each other, even on flanking shots. It was utterly idiotic and I am sore from laughing. One injury, two weeks out. But probably as good as I'll get. Not Created Equally, discovered only three of my original eight rookies didn't have minus to defense.

Fun.

Besides the fact that for me also barely anyone got positive defense, something must be broken in your life, either your luck or your LW2 install

[8wayz]

@Phaseless

I admit that you were right from the start - it really depends on which difficulty you are playing on how you view the graze band. On Commander and Legendary where the aliens get huge advantages in stats and numbers, that extra RNG feels at times like the aliens are cheating.

I can only assume that on lower difficulties you can make it in your favour somewhat as you can easily manage pods and alien numbers.

You really do not want to check how much Dodge the aliens have on Legendary. And your tools have limited number of uses per mission. On the second or third pod you will be out of tools and completely at the mercy of the RNG.

Which, as Tac1 can attest, is not clement at all.