Reapers in Long War

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Doctor Sticks
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Reapers in Long War

Post by Doctor Sticks »

So, i am sure everyone will agree that having reapers with their 1-tile detection would make stealthing way too easy in LW.

So how about a simple fix? A soldier who is not in cover does not benefit from any tile reduction, and can be spotted at full distance by any enemy. This will prevent soldiers from being able to "hide" by standing out in the open, just because the enemies have the vision range of blind mouse.

Another way to put it would be that the detection modifiers only apply on Xcom's turn, and on the alien turn, they are removed, which means that even a Reaper will be spotted immediately when out of cover.

Thoughts?
ekaC
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by ekaC »

Hunkering down reduces detection range. And Reapers have same detection range as SMG troops.

My idea of Reaper's Shadow Conceal
sarge945
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by sarge945 »

Yeah I would reduce their detection range. Their mobility is pretty over the top as well.

If I was doing reapers from scratch, I would get rid of the %chance to detect modifier, and instead go with something more skill based, although I really don't know how to make reapers more skillful and less "LOL IM INVISIBLE".

The 50% chance thing already makes me not use them for combat at all. They are a portable Battle scanner. And yet I still keep taking them on missions. I think that means their stealth needs a nerf and their actual combat prowess needs a buff - more of a "attack from the shadows" character and less of a "OMFG JUST SIT THERE DURING COMBAT" type character.
Sparky79
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by Sparky79 »

sarge945 wrote:Yeah I would reduce their detection range. Their mobility is pretty over the top as well.

If I was doing reapers from scratch, I would get rid of the %chance to detect modifier, and instead go with something more skill based, although I really don't know how to make reapers more skillful and less "LOL IM INVISIBLE".

The 50% chance thing already makes me not use them for combat at all. They are a portable Battle scanner. And yet I still keep taking them on missions. I think that means their stealth needs a nerf and their actual combat prowess needs a buff - more of a "attack from the shadows" character and less of a "OMFG JUST SIT THERE DURING COMBAT" type character.
Whaaa? When you get the "if you kill you dont use stealth" talent they are the death from shadows. They just flank and finish.
Nerfing stealth and boosting combat makes them too much like shinobi.
sarge945
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by sarge945 »

Sparky79 wrote:Whaaa? When you get the "if you kill you dont use stealth" talent they are the death from shadows. They just flank and finish.
Nerfing stealth and boosting combat makes them too much like shinobi.
I think they should remove shinobis entirely and replace them with reapers, tbh. With all the WotC classes and the LW2 classes, and SPARKs, there will be HEAPS to choose from, many of which overlap
Sparky79
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by Sparky79 »

sarge945 wrote:
Sparky79 wrote:Whaaa? When you get the "if you kill you dont use stealth" talent they are the death from shadows. They just flank and finish.
Nerfing stealth and boosting combat makes them too much like shinobi.
I think they should remove shinobis entirely and replace them with reapers, tbh. With all the WotC classes and the LW2 classes, and SPARKs, there will be HEAPS to choose from, many of which overlap
Well ... aside from shinobi being my favourite class (love em with SMGs as flankers) I am having a hard time disagreeing with you. :D And if you replace banish with rapid fire they also become less imba (no 1 button kill) and more usefull (not only one use per mission).
Swiftless
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by Swiftless »

Sparky79 wrote:
Well ... aside from shinobi being my favourite class (love em with SMGs as flankers) I am having a hard time disagreeing with you. :D And if you replace banish with rapid fire they also become less imba (no 1 button kill) and more usefull (not only one use per mission).

Agree with Shinobi being one of my favorite classes but with the exception that I don't find them particularly great as SMG builds (I could be doing it wrong though /shrug). Might be worthwhile to translate some of the Reaper abilities to buff ranged stealth attacks on the Shinobi or improving snapshot snipers.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Don't you dare removing Shinobi. Reapers should be out.
What is next Superman? Sniper?
All classes for one overpowered ? Why?
Why ?
Removing armor piercing from grenade is change (better). Removing Shinobi = why ?
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Sparky79
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by Sparky79 »

SonnyWiFiHr wrote:Don't you dare removing Shinobi. Reapers should be out.
What is next Superman? Sniper?
All classes for one overpowered ? Why?
Why ?
Removing armor piercing from grenade is change (better). Removing Shinobi = why ?

Heeey, all good man. :)
But the thing is the hero classes have a fun flavour to them (some more then others. :lol: ) so not including them in LWotC would be a shame. More so cause of the factions. But the downside is that if they are included there are 13 classes and even more overlap in classes.
For example - you can have both overwatch specialist and overwatch ranger builds that are very similar so thats some overlap. Add to that the skirmisher which shares some similarity with ranger but more flavour ... and what does that ranger bring thats so unique?

Or look at the covert skirmisher and the fact that reaper is a better covert specialist as it can do more from stealth then the skirmisher (unless its an officer). Add to that the Templar as the melee expert and the shinobi is no longer that unique. And it was more special then the ranger to begin with. Argument could be made about the sharpshooter / reaper overlap but IMHO it seems that there is more shinobi overlap in term of role.

And then there is technical ... yeah ... I dont like em. :D That aside, wouldnt it be more logical that instead of the class revolving around the gaunlet we let the gunner (or grenadeer) have the ability to equip the flamethrower (introduced by purifiers). And just how the assault has a tree that is shotgun specific we give one flamethrower specific tree to the gunner?
Jacke
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by Jacke »

sarge945 wrote:I think they should remove shinobis entirely and replace them with reapers, tbh. With all the WotC classes and the LW2 classes, and SPARKs, there will be HEAPS to choose from, many of which overlap
SonnyWiFiHr wrote:Don't you dare removing Shinobi. Reapers should be out.
What is next Superman? Sniper?
All classes for one overpowered ? Why?
Why ?
Removing armor piercing from grenade is change (better). Removing Shinobi = why ?
Grenades have armour shredding. They don't have armour piercing unless the soldier has the HEAT Warheads perk. And grenades are one of the few sources of early game shredding available, the other being Technical's rocket. Good luck going up against FL4 MECs in April without some shredding or AP rounds.

I don't agree with removing Shinobis. And I think the 3 new groups introduced in WotC should be used as supplementary troops recruited in a special way with their special nature intact. They aren't XCOM, they come to work with XCOM to free the Earth. Their presence has to be accommodated in the game design, but I don't think they should be used to replace any part of XCOM. But I do think XCOM should change in a future LWotC.

In LW2, there are too many classes and too many Perk selections, or more correctly, there are too many Perks that are chosen out of a set of 3 at each rank: get 1 and never see the other 2. This isn't a way to run any military force, especially a small insurgency. The soldiers should be able to learn the skills needed and the squad should be able to be equiped with what gear is available to run a mission.

Take for example an Assault. The only solder who can and must carry the Stunner. Who gets Lightning Reflexes as a choice of 1 out of 3 possible perks at LCpl. If one of the squads' Assault gets wounded, that's their best source of overwatch clearing lost. If you sub in another soldier, it has to be an Assault with Lightning Reflexes. Can't be any other soldier. Well, they can use another way to clear overwatch, including a solider who got Lightning Reflexes from the AWC. But not to get the Stunner. No Assaults, no Stunners. Imagine there's no Assaults in the barracks. Can find another way to clear overwatch, but no way is that squad being deployed with a Stunner. Because only Assaults have the magic knowledge of using that weapon.

This is been designed in as a gameplay limitation in stock XCOM and in LW. But just because that's the justification doesn't mean it's what should be done in the future. I've seen the video on the development of XCOM (2012) from a game with the flexibility of the original XCOM. The restricted nature of the soldier classes and their gear was introduced to make a simpler game than the original XCOM so more players wouldn't get lost in the myriad details and could quickly learn and enjoy the game.

But just because a game with the full complexity of the original XCOM would be too complex doesn't mean things can't be better than the current solution in stock XCOM 2 and LW2. And some mods and the skill system added in WotC point the way.

Rather than the current rank pick-1-of-2-or-3 perk system, use something like the WotC skill system to give out perks. The structure of that would replace the current rank perk system. Make it that all troops can't learn all skills, because that limitation makes sense. But most troops can learn vital skills and anyone can carry vital kit. With a tool like robojumper's squad select, it would be easy to kit out a squad with any equipment necessary. And have soldiers with rank and skills, not rigid soldier classes. That way, if you want the squad going out on a mission to take a Stunner, you assign one and they take one. Even if no one is skilled in using the Stunner. So they'd better get close before they try to stun.

You'd know the Machinegunners because they're the ones equiped with the Machineguns. And if you look at their skills, they have the training to use them well. The Sniper is the one with the Sniper Rifle. And the Shinobi is equipped with a Pistol, a Holotargeter, and a Blade. And because they all learned how as Rookies, they can all be sent out as Riflemen by equipping them with a Rifle, if that's what's needed, because they don't forget how to use a Rifle. They may not be the best at using the Rifle, that would be a troop trained and practiced with the Rifle.

And the 3 new WotC groups have their own special troops. Some of who join XCOM. They provide flavour and for special missions. Not to replace XCOM. To join with XCOM.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

You are right - shred. Make no sense that you can attack armor with grenade. You need shaped charge ( sometimes), cumulative warhead , cannon even in 1939.
You can't knock out Tiger with stick .
Tehnical is good.And they should be only source of shred . Ranger/sniper can go out they have to much punch compared to rest of the classes.
But I don't want anything out. They can put super classes together with LW classes.
I also have Rouge (holo Shinobi), SpecOps (knife critical monster), Alien hunter (even stronger Ranger) - same problem compared to LW classes they have to much punch.
Only one that I like is LW Field Medic class.
So right now I have 4 more classes than usual . I can't find any problem with 3 new add-ons.
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sarge945
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by sarge945 »

Jacke wrote:
sarge945 wrote:I think they should remove shinobis entirely and replace them with reapers, tbh. With all the WotC classes and the LW2 classes, and SPARKs, there will be HEAPS to choose from, many of which overlap
SonnyWiFiHr wrote:Don't you dare removing Shinobi. Reapers should be out.
What is next Superman? Sniper?
All classes for one overpowered ? Why?
Why ?
Removing armor piercing from grenade is change (better). Removing Shinobi = why ?
Grenades have armour shredding. They don't have armour piercing unless the soldier has the HEAT Warheads perk. And grenades are one of the few sources of early game shredding available, the other being Technical's rocket. Good luck going up against FL4 MECs in April without some shredding or AP rounds.

I don't agree with removing Shinobis. And I think the 3 new groups introduced in WotC should be used as supplementary troops recruited in a special way with their special nature intact. They aren't XCOM, they come to work with XCOM to free the Earth. Their presence has to be accommodated in the game design, but I don't think they should be used to replace any part of XCOM. But I do think XCOM should change in a future LWotC.

In LW2, there are too many classes and too many Perk selections, or more correctly, there are too many Perks that are chosen out of a set of 3 at each rank: get 1 and never see the other 2. This isn't a way to run any military force, especially a small insurgency. The soldiers should be able to learn the skills needed and the squad should be able to be equiped with what gear is available to run a mission.

Take for example an Assault. The only solder who can and must carry the Stunner. Who gets Lightning Reflexes as a choice of 1 out of 3 possible perks at LCpl. If one of the squads' Assault gets wounded, that's their best source of overwatch clearing lost. If you sub in another soldier, it has to be an Assault with Lightning Reflexes. Can't be any other soldier. Well, they can use another way to clear overwatch, including a solider who got Lightning Reflexes from the AWC. But not to get the Stunner. No Assaults, no Stunners. Imagine there's no Assaults in the barracks. Can find another way to clear overwatch, but no way is that squad being deployed with a Stunner. Because only Assaults have the magic knowledge of using that weapon.

This is been designed in as a gameplay limitation in stock XCOM and in LW. But just because that's the justification doesn't mean it's what should be done in the future. I've seen the video on the development of XCOM (2012) from a game with the flexibility of the original XCOM. The restricted nature of the soldier classes and their gear was introduced to make a simpler game than the original XCOM so more players wouldn't get lost in the myriad details and could quickly learn and enjoy the game.

But just because a game with the full complexity of the original XCOM would be too complex doesn't mean things can't be better than the current solution in stock XCOM 2 and LW2. And some mods and the skill system added in WotC point the way.

Rather than the current rank pick-1-of-2-or-3 perk system, use something like the WotC skill system to give out perks. The structure of that would replace the current rank perk system. Make it that all troops can't learn all skills, because that limitation makes sense. But most troops can learn vital skills and anyone can carry vital kit. With a tool like robojumper's squad select, it would be easy to kit out a squad with any equipment necessary. And have soldiers with rank and skills, not rigid soldier classes. That way, if you want the squad going out on a mission to take a Stunner, you assign one and they take one. Even if no one is skilled in using the Stunner. So they'd better get close before they try to stun.

You'd know the Machinegunners because they're the ones equiped with the Machineguns. And if you look at their skills, they have the training to use them well. The Sniper is the one with the Sniper Rifle. And the Shinobi is equipped with a Pistol, a Holotargeter, and a Blade. And because they all learned how as Rookies, they can all be sent out as Riflemen by equipping them with a Rifle, if that's what's needed, because they don't forget how to use a Rifle. They may not be the best at using the Rifle, that would be a troop trained and practiced with the Rifle.

And the 3 new WotC groups have their own special troops. Some of who join XCOM. They provide flavour and for special missions. Not to replace XCOM. To join with XCOM.
War of the Chosens Ability system fixes this, by letting you spend ability points for the important abilities that you missed

It adds in it's own issues though, because you end up with soldiers that are a) identical and b) extremely overpowered

As for Shinobis, yeah I get that a lot of people like them. they also overlap with the reaper. Maybe they should be changed a bit if not removed, since nobody is going to take a shinobi if reapers are just better at stealth (at least, not without a significant build change). Most of their abilities seem kind of wasted, unless you don't have a reaper
Jacke
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by Jacke »

sarge945 wrote:War of the Chosens Ability system fixes this, by letting you spend ability points for the important abilities that you missed

It adds in it's own issues though, because you end up with soldiers that are a) identical and b) extremely overpowered
This is a problem of long standing for freeform build systems in all sorts of games. In prerelease City of Heroes when the original powers system was more freeform, they were called Tank Mages, because they could do everything. Later on even in release, certain of the powersets used in certain ways on teams still broken the system. I played with players who excelled at figuring out those ways to skillfully play.

The way to solve it is to make a tree system that makes the more extreme skills require a number of prerequisites and investment in a field before they become available. It's like the real world. You can become very skilled at sniping, or demolitions, or a number of other military skills. But you can't get to the highest level in all fields, because that requires focusing on mostly one with limited time in the rest. The skill system just has to recognise that sort of specialization. But it doesn't prevent the sniper from knowing how to operate a rilfe or machinegun, or even to run a machinegun detactment, because all soldiers learn rifles and machineguns and all junior leaders learn how to run a machinegun det, even those not in in the infantry.
sarge945 wrote:As for Shinobis, yeah I get that a lot of people like them. they also overlap with the reaper. Maybe they should be changed a bit if not removed, since nobody is going to take a shinobi if reapers are just better at stealth (at least, not without a significant build change). Most of their abilities seem kind of wasted, unless you don't have a reaper
I think the solution here is to make the Shinobi more than just about stealth. As well as limit the number of Reapers the player can get to less than the number of squads they want to run, perhaps by making Reapers hard to recruit. Systems like fatigue and infiltration will help here. Give the Shinobi skills the Reapers don't have. Shinobi are regular XCOM troops, so they'd know how to handle more general military tech than the Reapers.
Steelflame
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by Steelflame »

sarge945 wrote: War of the Chosens Ability system fixes this, by letting you spend ability points for the important abilities that you missed

It adds in it's own issues though, because you end up with soldiers that are a) identical and b) extremely overpowered

As for Shinobis, yeah I get that a lot of people like them. they also overlap with the reaper. Maybe they should be changed a bit if not removed, since nobody is going to take a shinobi if reapers are just better at stealth (at least, not without a significant build change). Most of their abilities seem kind of wasted, unless you don't have a reaper
I have thought about the whole faction class and overlap, and figured the best way to handle it was to make it so each faction specialized in something Xcom COULDN'T do well with 2 classes, and adjust the classes accordingly.

The Reapers would have the current Reaper (with needed adjustments, such as boosting the detection range a fair bit, to about 50% of a normal class's detection range), and a heavily modified Shinobi that only has access to a sword and holotargetter. It's capabilities would be changed according to the fact that it would now be pure melee, with a stealth assassin tree capable of sustaining stealth on killing blows and enhancing stats while in stealth with things like +3 mobiliy in concealment, a holo-targeter tree, and a "going loud" tree with all of the more powerful melee skills that depend on already being out of concealment.

Psionics would be adjusted to only exist in the Templar faction, with them having the current Psionic class, and the Templar class. And the capability of having default access to multiple shots per turn would be a part of the skirmishers, with the Skirmisher being an up front low range high mobility flanker type of class, while the Ranger is a slower, longer range, more DPS heavy class, with access to becoming an overwatch specialist or having access to abilities like Death from Above and Serial for a more aggressive reset heavy shooter.
sarge945
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by sarge945 »

Steelflame wrote:Psionics would be adjusted to only exist in the Templar faction, with them having the current Psionic class, and the Templar class. And the capability of having default access to multiple shots per turn would be a part of the skirmishers, with the Skirmisher being an up front low range high mobility flanker type of class, while the Ranger is a slower, longer range, more DPS heavy class, with access to becoming an overwatch specialist or having access to abilities like Death from Above and Serial for a more aggressive reset heavy shooter.
Long War 2 especially has problems with the Skirmisher class, since one of the default classes (is it Ranger?) already has the ability for their shots to not end the turn, which is taking away one of the skirmishers biggest strengths.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

I can have 6 of Shinobi or less or quite more. But I can have only two Special classes per class.
Right ?
Just 6 new soldiers.
I will use rest of barracks as usual.
They can be Uber but not on every mission.
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Steelflame
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by Steelflame »

sarge945 wrote:
Steelflame wrote:Psionics would be adjusted to only exist in the Templar faction, with them having the current Psionic class, and the Templar class. And the capability of having default access to multiple shots per turn would be a part of the skirmishers, with the Skirmisher being an up front low range high mobility flanker type of class, while the Ranger is a slower, longer range, more DPS heavy class, with access to becoming an overwatch specialist or having access to abilities like Death from Above and Serial for a more aggressive reset heavy shooter.
Long War 2 especially has problems with the Skirmisher class, since one of the default classes (is it Ranger?) already has the ability for their shots to not end the turn, which is taking away one of the skirmishers biggest strengths.
Yea, thats actually why I'd move the Ranger class into the Skirmisher faction. You choose what type of multi-shooty user you get, either the slower, more defensive ranger, or the fast and furious, but low range, Skirmisher.
Jarno Mikkola
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Re: Reapers in Long War

Post by Jarno Mikkola »

If you want to nerf the Reapers, but make them useful still... nerf the stealth skill a bit, so it's not -90% reveal distance, but say -50%, but give them more claymore's and Sting shots, aka they can make more silent attacks and explode things and remain invisible.
Yeah, the -90% makes the usual enemy blind as a bat. Which is cheesy.

Yes, Shinobi had -25% in the Long War 2 as one of the perks, further -25% as a second perk.
And the AI needs to be able to respond to the not revealed characters better, without too much cheating. For example, they should double move towards a sniping char and take cover if there's one revealed to them. If there's two, walk towards the nearest and take primary cover vs them.
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