WotC is literally impossible to lose??

sarge945
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WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by sarge945 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:17 pm

Okay so I have played about 90% of the way through my WotC campaign, and it seems like the game has become so easy as to be broken.

Basically, instead of having to actually prioritise things, I simply got the "Sabotage" faction order and the "reduce avatar progress" covert actions, and now the game will just patiently wait for me to get every single tech, train soldiers to full, and basically become extremely overpowered at my own pace while the enemies are maxed out. Most of the time, the "Imminent Victory" doesn't happen within the first 9 days of the month, which means it will always be countered at the end of the month by the faction order, plus you have the covert action to reduce it further effectively for free. I can literally sit back and relax - it doesn't have the tension of putting out fires and mopping up sites like the original game and LW2.

I somehow feel this goes against the fundamental idea of XCOM, as if it's literally impossible to lose, a lot of the tension of the game is lost.

I am only playing on Veteran (I am actually a pretty novice player, having only finished the vanilla game once).

I remember the original game forcing you into action, since the only way to reduce the avatar progress was completing black sites and story missions, but now it's just as simple as waiting.

Maybe I am remembering wrong? Does anyone else feel this way? Has it always been like this? Do you think the game should be possible to actually lose? Do you think Long War addresses/will address this problem? I know it hides the avatar progress, but if they leave the faction order in the game will it likely lead to the same problem?

Frei_Ninjesus
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by Frei_Ninjesus » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:59 pm

Well, after playing LW I can say that WotC is much easier indeed. I around midgame so far in Veteran difficulty (juggling around with several games right now lol) and I'm not feeling too rushed or against the ropes at all. It doesn't bother me though, I still have to try it in harder difficulties. It's also kind of nice to have a chance to get around to research everything and get some super soldiers for a change (feels nice to stomp aliens left and right every once in a while), that's one of the things I've noticed from LW: it's really hard to get to the endgame techs and even more so to actually enjoy them for more than a couple of missions.

I love both games thought, each has its own charm IMHO.

sarge945
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by sarge945 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:28 pm

I hear you. The problem is, once the game becomes impossible to lose, it might as well be an MMO Grind. You will eventually win, no matter what you do.

I dunno.

Noober
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by Noober » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:08 pm

The same on Legend. The start is somehow tough especially with Assassing Chosen but once you reach midgame - it's most likely done consider you don't do serious mistakes on tactical layer. There is still a chance to squadwipe but with immediate evac on most missions it's far less a threat then in LW2.
FYI: JoNrbs speedrun WoTC on Legend.
Last edited by Noober on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Psieye
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by Psieye » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:08 pm

The tactical layer was already nearly impossible to lose (assuming you weren't trying to fail) in no-DLC vanilla once you reach a certain point. DLCs then made the game easier so I'm not surprised WotC ended up making the doom clock obsolete. XCOM 1 took more effort to break the doom clock but you could still stretch the campaign indefinitely. LW2 takes a lot more effort but there are reports of people delaying the doom clock so long they had time to max out far too much.

So really, it's just down to how easy to make the doom clock breakable. LWotC shouldn't have a problem making it hard again.
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Noober
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by Noober » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:17 pm

Yes, doomclock is a real pain in LW2 on Legend consider Radio Relays nerf.
It was possible to reduce avatar speed to 0% in 1.1-1.2 (I even managed to reached over 100% speed reduction late game and keep it so for a while even without 0% raids due to mass 3 mans stealth missions) but in 1.3+ I don't see this as an option.
In 1.4 my max was like 50% midgame and only for a couple of weeks .
And the blacksite sometimes may spawn 5 regions away...

Dwarfling
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by Dwarfling » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:15 pm

On Legend, my first and only run so far, I rode the AVATAR clock kinda close early (15d). But after doing a Facility with 3 ticks (wow they're easy compared to LW2) and perma-running Sabotage order I never had a problem with it. I think I activated the clock a second time but I did another Facility and Blacksite I was back in business.

I killed the last Chosen and kinda lost of the will to keep the campaign going. I know I'm gonna win at that point, I got like 4 facilities discovered, all the buildings up and running, complete plasma tech and powered armor and the OP chosen weapons.

Granted, I bronzeman'd. But eh... I just started a new 1.5 LW2 campaign and hope the new content makes it to LW2. I like what they added, a lot, but I feel like the challenge isn't there yet, specially late game. Maybe when doing extracts against Sectopods gets hard, but that was very far in-between. Oh the lost were never a challenge either. And after you run the "kill lost with any hit" order, they're trivial since you can clear a horde with the sharpshooter's pistol.

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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by Psieye » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:50 pm

I remember the hype train period when streamers with early access were showing WotC off. I wasn't sure how I'd fare against the Lost when watching Lost & Abandoned. Lo and behold, when it was my turn to play it, I noticed the ladders. Was pretty annoyed how the Lost were meaningless roadblocks after that.
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stefan3iii
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by stefan3iii » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:14 pm

Pretty much. From what I can tell it's easy to reduce avatar, and you can replace Cols late game, or just build SPARKs. And really Squaddie Rangers are pretty effective regardless.

Losing is mostly about "deciding" to lose. I "lost" my first WOTC campaign when I went into the chosen HQ not understanding the final fight with an ill prepared team and completely wiped. I'm like 99% certain I could've kept playing and won, but wanted to start over because I figure it'd be more fun and wanted to apply what I had learned to a new campaign.

I really like many things about WOTC, but the game is way too easy to be replayable, both on the tactical and strategic layer.

LordYanaek
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by LordYanaek » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:56 pm

sarge945 wrote:Basically, instead of having to actually prioritise things, I simply got the "Sabotage" faction order and the "reduce avatar progress" covert actions, and now the game will just patiently wait for me to get every single tech, train soldiers to full, and basically become extremely overpowered at my own pace while the enemies are maxed out...
It's extremely random, much more than LW2 ever was despite the complains around RNG (including mine).

I almost lost my commander WotC campaign to AVATAR (i think it's rising faster now and the doom clock is quite short the second time it shows) but once i got the order that reduces AVATAR at the end of each month (i think it's actually supply drop period - 3 weeks) and the Sabotage covert ops showed up it all became a complete non-issue like it was in early Vanilla XCOM2 (where you could just wait for the doom clock to be 1h from defeat to take the blacksite, and then do it again with the nearest facility).

However i think it would be harder for someone who doesn't get easy contact with the Skirmishers (or who isn't offered the good covert ops / order) as the bar will be full before the end of May and if you are a bit unlucky with where the closest facility spawned and a Choosen sabotages the Avenger after you start scanning for contact you might be totally (and randomly) screwed. There were only 11h left when i finished contacting the region with the fist facility (i was sabotaged, but fortunately not immediately after starting scanning as sabotage doubles the remaining scan time)

Orders as a whole are a good idea but a number of them are totally overpowered. I got the order that turned every shot against lost into a headshot early in my campaign. Needles to say every lost mission was just a pistol-wielding sharpshooter doing all the work while the other soldiers were playing cheerleaders :roll:

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8wayz
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by 8wayz » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:42 pm

@LordYanaek

There is nothing random in Avatar progress management in War of the Chosen. To illustrate it:

- The Sabotage Covert ops becomes available for one of the resistance factions at the beginning of a month. To appear there needs to be an Advent facility with 2+ pips in one of the regions managed by that faction. As such, you may get the Sabotage Covert ops for all 3 factions.
- The reduce by 1 Avatar progress card is always available (I think) on all campaigns. You just need to get your trust higher to have access to it.
- Taking a note from the above points, you are actually encouraged to let 3+ facilities active on the map, so you can always get a Sabotage Op at the beginning of a month. This gives you some limited strategy in how to manage your Avatar progress.
- Unlike Long War 2, you almost always get to choose which Dark Event you would like to counter (unless you have 4 being prepared). And you do not depend on RNG to spawn the +1/2 Avatar progress event in a region that you have already contacted.
- The Blacksite in War of the Chosen, as in original Xcom 2, spawns always close to your starting region. This is in direct contrast with Long War 2, where it spawns as far as possible on purpose. However, this can get really frustrating as some of the links between regions are random and you can end up with a pretty long wait to get to the Blacksite due to RNG when generating the campaign.

If you have good understanding of the mechanics, they are fairly easy to manage and they include almost no RNG compared to LW 2.

On topic, you can also lose by failing the Avenger defence mission, which can be initiated a couple of times per campaign depending on what the Chosen do. So you do have a clock of sorts. I would say mostly the Chosen and the Avenger defence mission need some rework, to make them a lot more menacing from mid to late game.

LordYanaek
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by LordYanaek » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:31 pm

I'll trust you on this. I played only a single campaign. It seemed those covert ops started to appear randomly from june on to make the game way too easy and never showed before when i actually needed them but it might be simply because the facilities randomly spawned in regions not managed by the reapers (sorry, did i say random? :lol: ).

Of course the Blacksite awlays spawns next to you in Vanilla/WotC just like it always spawns away in LW2, there is no randomness with that part. But once you have destroyed the blacksite and reduced the doom bar by a meager point you're at the mercy of RNGesus regarding where the closest facility spawned and whether or not a chosen will sabotage your scan, making it impossible to contact the region in time. In LW2 at least we have time to develop and start growing our network of resistance cells before things get dangerous with AVATAR.

I've said this in another thread but i'll say it again : the issue is mostly when the RNG have an impact. In Vanilla/WotC, almost all of the difficulty is in the first months, well not really the very first one, but the April-May window. You still have little control over the game at that point (few regions contacted, low influence with at least 2/3 of the factions (in WotC), low health soldiers who can die from a single crit and result in chain panic) leaving you much more vulnerable to an RNG that could bring your campaign to an unexpected and early end. However once you start to be developed the game becomes too easy and the RNG no longer have any opportunity to cause you any trouble (aliens are dead before they have a chance to act so of course you'll never take an unlucky crit in the face later). If those orders/operations are guaranteed to appear, then i'm tempted to agree with sarge945 that the game becomes impossible to loose. I thought i had just been lucky past the difficult month of May. Maybe it was the designers choice that the game should be easy to make players feel strong but coming from LW2 it really felt like such a walk in the park (from June on) was impossible and could only be explained by a strange cosmic alignment ;)

LW2 starts slowly and doesn't put much strategic (or event tactical) pressure on you in the early game. The RNG can (and will often) result in wounds, sometimes causalities, but no game-over on the strategic layer and hopefully, after you learn which classes work best for your style of play, no "game-over" from too many losses on the tactical layer either. RNG will shape how your campaign unfolds (lots of scientist or not, early or later liberation) but won't break it. Pavonis added a number of RNG mitigators to the early game (Ceramic plating, free flashbangs, soldiers who are strong at squadie level, modified hit-crit resulting in more small wounds and less crit-kills) making the whole RNG "smoother" in LW2. However the RNG will still have an impact later because there's no point in LW2 where you just crush everything instantly. But later in the game, provided you handled your early campaign well (enough, no need to be perfect as my 1.4 campaign showed - i relied too much on luck to get scientists and ended up with very slow tech development), you'll have ways of overcoming the obstacles the RNG puts in your path (both on the tactical and strategic layer). Overcoming but not flying 100 miles above :)

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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by JulianSkies » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:38 pm

8wayz wrote: - The reduce by 1 Avatar progress card is always available (I think) on all campaigns. You just need to get your trust higher to have access to it
Nope, card is not in fact always available. Going through a game like that right now.

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8wayz
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by 8wayz » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:25 pm

@ JulianSkies
What month and trust level are you currently with the Skirmishers ? I think that order does appear on all campaigns, but it is randomized when exactly. I did not get it right away in my current campaign for example.

@ LordYanaek

The Blacksite in Long War 2 is a particularly sore point about RNG in my eyes. You can not make it appear 3 to 5 regions away and at the same time make certain links between regions random. Depending on which links are missing, I have seen campaigns where you actually have to reproduce Magellan's voyage. That can add up to 3 months (for a total of 5-6 months) to you reaching the Blacksite and having your first hard reduction of the Doom meter. This was somehow mitigated with the chance to reduce the Doom meter by 1 when you liberate a region.

Facilities are not that random - they first check whether there is a region with no facilities near it. You also see the countdown till the next one appears, as well as you are alerted where exactly it is created. This information is removed in Long War 2 on purpose, making it seem there is no RNG going on Geoscape, which is exactly the opposite of what is going on behind the scenes.

Long War 2 does put a lot of pressure on you in the early game, if you are aware that the Doom Meter starts running with a headstart. The Dark events are really hard to counter if you do not begin contacting regions and the aliens quickly start ramping up reinforcements once you reach a certain vigilance level.

The fact that this information is obfuscated on purpose to make the player lower his/hers guard does not make the pressure any less significant.

As you mentioned, having the mission rewards be totally random means that often you are starved for engineers/scientists. Both are expensive to buy and War of the Chosen handles this a lot better - you get Covert ops to recruit either of them and their is a check whether you need an engineer or scientist before the mission generates its rewards.

On Battlescape those adjustments were made due to the balance shift towards greater numbers and overpowered aliens. In fact, the most reliable way of reducing RNG in Long War 2 remains the same as in Long War 1 - break line of sight and have a scout provide vision for Squadsight snipers. Then set up an overwatch trap and just decimate pod after pod of Advent and aliens.
Last edited by 8wayz on Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ClodRaker
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by ClodRaker » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:00 pm

I just finished my L/I run in January with high Skirmisher rep obtained long beforehand and did not see the order, so it seems it definitely does not always come up -- or it comes up to late to be a practical consideration in some campaigns. On the other hand, the resistance missions that take 10 days or less and reduce the counter by 2 in addition to potentially offering you some other useful benefit (bonding level, promotion for a high level officer) seem extremely unbalanced, and come up quite often. Ran about six or seven of these missions in total, I think. Finished the game with four facilities intact, and was only at about 1/2 of the way through the meter.

Currently starting a new challenge campaign. Will either be
1) No squad-size L/I run.
2) See how quickly one can feasibly kill all chosen and beat the game on Legend. (Probably not Ironman, since I'm more interested in the approximate theoretical limit with this one).

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8wayz
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by 8wayz » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:11 pm

@ClodRaker

Yep, if you leave at least 3 alien facilities at all times on the map you are guaranteed at least 1 Sabotage mission per month. They are balanced in that they have a high chance of ambush and do not destroy the facility, so you are only slowing their progress.

You will still have to do the story objectives or destroy facilities to properly lower the Avatar progress though.

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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by JulianSkies » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:35 pm

8wayz wrote:@ JulianSkies
What month and trust level are you currently with the Skirmishers ? I think that order does appear on all campaigns, but it is randomized when exactly. I did not get it right away in my current campaign for example.
It is... 12/06/2035, whatever that parses as. Just checking the loading menu for date and yes, I do have high trust with the skirmishers. They're even my starting faction and I got two of them.

stefan3iii
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by stefan3iii » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:37 am

I just finished a campaign, that I drew out, unlocked everything, never saw the -1 avatar project card.

sarge945
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by sarge945 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:57 am

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

How do you guys feel about these changes/suggestions to make the game a bit less trivial with the doom clock? I think XCOM is at it's best when it's not casually drawn out and you get every tech and buff. I understand some of you may disagree though.

1. Get rid of the sabotage faction order
2. Get rid of the "facility lead" or make it extremely rare so you actually have to expand and can't just fly around the map when needed. Maybe limit it to 1-2 per campaign so it's an emergency but not par for the course.
3. Get rid of the covert action to delay it, or make it only available once per campaign
4. Make the blacksite always start 2 regions away from the starting region, so that it's fair and you don't randomly lose the campaign
5. More doom clock progress every month, so we actually have to expand and deal with it

And some other random things

1. Get rid of "between the eyes" because the lost are already trivial, this just makes them a joke. Or at least nerf it, maybe "the first headshot kill on the lost in a turn ignores health". I would like to see The Lost get buffed in general. If you get anything other than a flawless on a Lost mission you are playing the game wrong.

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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by Psieye » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:48 am

I once saw a covert action to get the "reduce Avatar progress by 1 each month" order and consciously didn't waste time acquiring it. Avatar was too easy to reduce even without that after a brief spike where it reached 8 pips.
sarge945 wrote: How do you guys feel about these changes/suggestions
Me personally? I've grown weary of reading these tiny snippets. I've written them myself too and have been misinterpreted so many times I've outright stopped participating in these brainstorm sessions. Nobody is writing fully comprehensive design proposals (estimated word count required: 8000) and I can't fault them for not wanting to.
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LordYanaek
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by LordYanaek » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:04 am

8wayz wrote: The Blacksite in Long War 2 is a particularly sore point about RNG in my eyes. You can not make it appear 3 to 5 regions away and at the same time make certain links between regions random. Depending on which links are missing, I have seen campaigns where you actually have to reproduce Magellan's voyage. That can add up to 3 months (for a total of 5-6 months) to you reaching the Blacksite and having your first hard reduction of the Doom meter. This was somehow mitigated with the chance to reduce the Doom meter by 1 when you liberate a region.
As far as i know (hopefully a developer can confirm it) 3 to 5 regions away actually means 3 to 5 links away so missing links don't cause any additional troubles. That Magellan's voyage probably simply means it was the max 5 links away.
FWIW Blacksite spawned pretty far away from my starting region and i took it away in late October or early November in my campaign. Until that point i used liberation (4 regions from July to September) to keep it under control (which meant, high but more than 1 pip away from completion). The addition of liberation avatar reduction offered an extremely reliable way to counter it.
Facilities are not that random - they first check whether there is a region with no facilities near it. You also see the countdown till the next one appears, as well as you are alerted where exactly it is created. This information is removed in Long War 2 on purpose, making it seem there is no RNG going on Geoscape, which is exactly the opposite of what is going on behind the scenes.
I know they don't appear randomly but where they appear seems quite random to me and obtaining Facility Leads in Vanilla/WotC is totally random which means if the closest facility is too far away there is absolutely nothing you can do.

I started in New Mexico, Blacksite was in East America and the only way out of NA was one link from W America to New Arctic. First facility spawned somewhere in Asia (but not New Arctic). My first contact was EA for the blacksite, then WA to move to other parts of the world. At that point i was maxed on contact and had to build a power relay (no lucky power scansite) and comm station (no lucky + contact scansite or covert op). When all of this was operational i contacted New Arctic, built a relay there (not enough Intel to directly go to the facility region at 3 links distance cost) and finally attempted to contact the region with the facility. While i was scanning a chosen managed to sabotage the Avenger's scanner resulting in *2 time on the current scan activity. Finally when i contacted the region there was 11h left on the doom clock (second time it showed, first time i took down the blacksite). In other words i was 11h away from loosing my campaign to pure bad luck (chosen sabotage). Past that point however, i was lucky to gain access to the sabotage order the very next supply cycle and AVATAR never reached a worrying level for the rest of the game.
Long War 2 does put a lot of pressure on you in the early game, if you are aware that the Doom Meter starts running with a headstart.
The Doom meter isn't really an issue until July to September (depending on difficulty). You have plenty of time to develop your resistance network. In WotC it rises to full while you're still trying to start so all you can do is hope whatever limited options you have will be enough. If you live past that point it becomes a non-issue as Psieye said.
As you mentioned, having the mission rewards be totally random means that often you are starved for engineers/scientists. Both are expensive to buy and War of the Chosen handles this a lot better - you get Covert ops to recruit either of them and their is a check whether you need an engineer or scientist before the mission generates its rewards.
I know, i've been scientist starved for the first months and got Laser in late June and Adv Laser in early July (just in time for my first liberation). That made for a really interesting (if a bit long by the end) campaign where i never felt overpowered compared to ADVENT and had to adapt my strategy globally (such as carefully selecting my missions when i felt really underpowered like late June with Balistics). However it wasn't just bad luck, it was careless play as i relied on luck to get the scientists i needed. Murphy's law states that "if it can go wrong, it will" and i gave the game the opportunity to go wrong by not buying at least one scientist in the first supply cycle (when they are cheapest). Lesson learned, the RNG didn't screw me, i did :)

Now i hope the covert ops will stay in LWotC to offer an additional way to mitigate the RNG as i agree they add interesting options and i never think there is too much RNG mitigation mechanisms.
On Battlescape those adjustments were made due to the balance shift towards greater numbers and overpowered aliens. In fact, the most reliable way of reducing RNG in Long War 2 remains the same as in Long War 1 - break line of sight and have a scout provide vision for Squadsight snipers. Then set up an overwatch trap and just decimate pod after pod of Advent and aliens.
Aliens aren't (much) stronger in the early game when most of the "bad luck causalities" happen in Vanilla/WotC. In addition they are already compensated by the fact that you also have more, stronger soldiers. Once again it would require a developer to answer to be sure but i think i've read they specifically created ceramic plating to make sure low health soldiers (especially with NCE) don't die from a single lucky advent shot (something that do occur in vanilla/WotC as crits are quite common in full cover due to the way the to-hit calculation is done).

In the end i think we'll have to agree that we disagree or we could probably keep discussing this for the following century. I know there's a lot of RNG behind the scene in LW2 but to my eyes, it's RNG that shapes your campaign rather than break it. It took me time to understand that. Actually it required going back to vanilla (WotC actually) after LW2 and suffer from the early game RNG. Of course once you start crushing everything there isn't much RNG left in vanilla, but unfortunately there isn't much challenge either LW2 keeps the challenge for the entire game but the flip side is that you're still vulnerable to bad luck even much later in the game, however you (usually) have multiple ways to overcome that bad luck even if it might cause you to loose some guys :|

naschkokthe3rd
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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by naschkokthe3rd » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:54 pm

I encourage anyone who finds the WOTC "impossible to lose," especially late game, to try out Grim Horizon.

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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by Narator&Samiya » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:13 am

I don't really think the Sabatosh Facility Covert OPs is overpowered for say in the context of WoTC as IMO the main threat in game the comes from the Chosen themselves rather then the AVATAR project. I've lost many nights of sleep over the looming prospect of an AVENGER assault and even had a close call on one of my campaigns when I had a bloody ambush on Hacksaw Ridge that knocked out two of my guys and threw 2-3 pods of Mecs, Mutons Berserkers and other nasties along with the Assassin herself! (This was a mid game Avenger Assault with Mag-Weapons and Plated Armor, Making the prospect of dealing with multiple Muton Berserkers in a firefight a somewhat scary proposition especially when a defeat means an auto loss!)

This is not to say I don't think there shouldn't be a soft timer to the game (I think the AVATAR project is needed in the context of Xcom 2 both Vanilla and LW2). But at the same time I don't mind reaching a point in the extreme late game where I can delay the avatar project indefinitely at which point I've already won and am taking my sweet time getting the gear and squad ready to take on the final mission.

Of course I do think Long War 2 should be more far more challenging across the board especially in the late game. But at the same time I do enjoy the chance of playing around with my shiny power armor, psionics and plasma guns especially when you have a early/early mid game that can be nothing short of brutal. (I love my Ironman Legend.) I like to think of it as payback for all the hell the aliens caused me for the bulk of my campaign.

In short if I make to the extreme late game I enjoy having the freedom to win the game at my own pace (Once I've earned it of course!) and not be forced into winning the game on a time limit.

The main thing I don't like about late game WotC is that its too easy to wipe ET off the board in one turn unlike in LW 2 where multiturn firefights are much more common. I would LOVE to see a a Long WotC if only to see a Skirmisher's Battlelord ability to shine for once in a actual late game firefight. (And to be able to make a Long War Operations Meme Journal with the photo booth!)

Another thing I don't like about the emphasis on Avenger Assaults potentially ending games in WotC instead of AVATAR project is that Squad Sight Heavy Turrets trivialize Avenger Defense missions and that should Chosen Assaults be the main threat of ending a game in Long War of the Chosen such missions must be made much harder. (Although with how infiltration works in LW2 I can see how Chosen Assaults could be extremely annoying even if they aren't made too much harder.)

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Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by WarChicken » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:53 pm

I do mostly agree with you, OP.
While I'm not a fan of always feeling pressure, WotC has taken out too much of the pressure and is indeed to easy in the late game.
While it offers quite some extra challenge in the beginning when you have to deal with the chosen themselves, this is all gone and dips to the other side once they are defeated.
So much so, that I think it needs a little patching.

dethraker
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:17 pm

Re: WotC is literally impossible to lose??

Post by dethraker » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:07 pm

Well I feel like an absolute scrub because I lost once already. Given I wasn't taking the CovertOps for reducing the counter/etc. and I also delayed spreading into regions where I knew there were facilities, but I still lost once already lol.

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