How important is mobility?

Snipethis
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Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:54 pm

How important is mobility?

Post by Snipethis »

So what to do with base 13 - 15 mobility guys? Once you load them up with items thats 10 - 12 mobility. Snappy!

Actually thats most of my entire roster which is why I have a bunch of rapid reaction OW Rangers that camp and shoot like crazy. I kill as many things on their turn as I do on mine. They are my best killers after my one Rapid Reaction Sniper.

Actually the only class that really needs mobility is Assault for point blank shooting. For the rest its way down the pecking order in terms of importance.

What do you guys think?
Phaseless
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Phaseless »

I value mobility highly for many classes and situations.
Rangers and Gunners want to empty their mags and reload/shoot on their turns, so they need to reach high cover quickly so they don't need to move again during engagement.
Technicals need to get close up to get their flames going. Assaults you already covered.
Snipers and specialists need mobility the least because they work from afar anyway, except snapshot snipers who want to get flanks.
Shinobis, despite moving a lot, IMO don't need that much mobility, because you need to be careful not to move too far into unknown territory anyway. Also since they almost never shoot, they always get an SMG for extra mobility.

Then, no matter what unit we're talking about, high mobility is great for missions where you want to move very quickly and/or remain undetected for long.

TLDR: Especially for techs, gunners and rangers mobility is one of the most important stats I look at
ranger: aim > mobility > rest
gunner: defense, mobility > aim > rest
tech: mobility > rest

Also maybe consider equipping classes that you don't bring primarily for shooting (which is everything that is not assualt, gunner, ranger, sniper and overwatch specialist) with SMGs instead of rifles since mobility is more important for them than range and aim. And least that's the common consensus AFAIK
Steelflame
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Steelflame »

The importance of Mobility heavily depends on the class, although more is always better, its just a difference of crucial to function vs nice to have.

Snipers can have almost no mobility and function, so long as you are only using them on map setups that don't depend on them moving.

Close Combat assaults and Shoot-nobies want very high mobility to get within range/flank shots to trigger their multi-shot triggers.

Multi-shot Rangers want high mobility so that during the few AP points they have that they are not shooting they can actually move up enough to keep up with the squad. Overwatch Rangers that have EV can get away with lower mobility though and just focus on the Dash actions to keep up.

Technicals, while they love mobility, can easily get away with an SMG because they ideally don't need to shoot their gun much, same as Grenadiers.

Grenadiers, especially support ones, don't care much about mobility. They just need to get within range to throw the grenade, and that area is fairly generous. Support focused ones can also use the free action grenade throw to enable throwing a grenade after a dash (If you use the ability before moving, your grenadier won't end their turn after a dash, you can still throw the free support grenade action.)
Psieye
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Psieye »

You need mobility in the earlygame, which largely revolves around shoving a gun to the face or throwing frags from close range. Mid-game onwards you can support low mobility soldiers better. Oscar Mike + Command can make even 10 mobility soldiers run pretty far when everything's dead and it's time to evac. If you have resources to spare, grapple hook works too. But the best way to use low mobility soldiers is to make the enemy come to you (read: squadsight pulls).

How many GOps are there which amount to "run back towards your starting location to evac"? If you happen to bring a low mobility soldier and the evac is far away, you'll play the map differentliy to if the evac is right next to you. Identify when it's ok to split the squad up to feel confident about fielding low mobility soldiers.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Dwarfling
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Dwarfling »

Mobility is very important but I do have some strategies to deal with low mobility troops:

- Low mobility high aim rookies are easier to handle. You can GTS them into Sharpshooters (DFA), Rangers and Gunners. It is gonna hurt the Gunner and the Crit Rangers the most, specially when you want to deploy them in GOps, but OW rangers get thru it by getting Ever Vigilant at LCpl. Still, it's the aim what's more imporant with these specs. OW Specialists are also ok with these stats.

- Low mobility low aim rookies mean you probably got a beefy soldier that rolled high HP and maybe defense. I like to GTS these guys into Shinobis (sword) or Grenadiers. On Sword Shinobis, weirdly enough I don't seem to mind the low mobility since they always carry a SMG and can really use the defensive stats when fleche'ing into enemy territory, or when you get accidentaly spotted and have to eat some yellow alert actions. Grenadiers I mostly use with SMGs, and having high defensive stats, specially high HP, means I can safely switch the ablative item for another grenade. I mostly make these guys Sapper spec.

What to do when you get mobility reliant classes with low mobility tho?

Assault: some people like to give them rifles, I like to still go with shotguns, picking the Extra Conditioning + Rapid Fire combo and prioritizing Speed PCS on them. Picking Stun Gunner also gives a better option during turns you can't get close enough, but still picking Lightning Reflexes (over electroshock) because it's just so good.

Technical: these guys can still shine with low mobility if they pick some of the rocket skills. I still prefer to give them SMGs and try for mostly fireman spec, giving them a speed pcs, but some people like them with rifles since they can take shredder and rapid fire.
Jarno Mikkola
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Jarno Mikkola »

A small part of the high mobility problem is, that the enemy tile counts, even the not revealed player chars... aka you can't get to a flanking position normally with a blue move, you'll nearly always be 1 tile out.
Specialists should have high mobility... except that they don't normally have a squadsight... without one giving it to them, but if they had, they would definitely prefer to have a higher mobility than say rangers, cause they could use that, with a normal assault rifle (with squadsight), yep, the game actually allows move and squad sight shot with assault rifles in the same turn. Which I give it to the one specialist I use.. which make the whole sniper/sharpshooter class useless, except if you want high accurate&damage one with serial.

Assault troopers with high mobility are better than Rangers too, most notably with implacable/untouchable, as they can run&gun to exposed flanked enemy that tile counted them, and then not get shot to death by the one enemy left or possibly retreat if they got the implacable perk. But that obviously works only if you don't reveal another pod.

High mobility gives higher damage to Shinobi's, so they should get it too.
Grenadiers could also use it too, as they can expose enemy, run away and if they have Run&Gun, grenade/shoot again. And as the explosives don't damage alive enemy corpses, they should be the first one to fire and thus expose the squad to the enemy.
This is also why the whole Technical class is bad, it's way too exposed & destructive, in most cases.

When Long War 2 gets a WOTC mode, I hope that the team alters the Losts AI to simply attack the nearest Enemy, be it XCOM, civilian or Advent/Alien. This would make it possible to track down an alien pod, a Lost pod and, run pass an exposed trooper from one to the other and have the Lost attack the alien .. so to speak. As most of the time the Lost just walk either to overwatch or loose an interest to an Alien before doing enough damage to do a thing. Ouh, and if a humanoid is killed by a Lost, they should re-awake a 1 turn after as a Lost, just like a Psy-zombie.

Usually Defense is useless stat, as it usually just exposes another soldier to fire at the same cover level, as the enemy doesn't have a range penalty/bonus, ever.
Last edited by Jarno Mikkola on Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Phaseless
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Phaseless »

Defense is important for gunners because they will suppress a lot and will lose suppression when hit.
Jarno Mikkola
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Jarno Mikkola »

Right, but if the enemy is already dead, you don't need to suppress them.
And the flashbang grenades work from behind walls and good cover. Well, most of the time. Yes, the grenadiers are good at more than just offensive & cover removal.

But that's of course play style difference.
Psieye
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Psieye »

Defence is useless in a lot of situations, but it's not hard to engineer situations where it breaks the AI. Defence will force me to re-think how to use a soldier much more than mobility.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Sparky79
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Sparky79 »

Phaseless wrote: Shinobis, despite moving a lot, IMO don't need that much mobility, because you need to be careful not to move too far into unknown territory anyway. Also since they almost never shoot, they always get an SMG for extra mobility.
I disagree with this.
Middle tree shinobi are great flankers.
Move to flank, fire on flanked target, then if in danger use free action to fall back or if not, use another attack to finish them (single shot, rapid fire or sword attack).

So for that mobility is vital.
LordYanaek
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by LordYanaek »

The importance of mobility depends more on how you build and use your soldiers than their class. Personally i used several builds of every class in my last campaigns.
  • Assault :
    • Burst damage depending on R&G (mostly left branch). They don't like very low mobility but make up with lowish mobility easily as they have R&G to move faster and deal more damage on crits. They don't like missions where you keep fighting for several turns but i found they work great on missions like Jailbreaks where, provided you can eliminate each encountered pod quickly you usually have a few turns respite before facing the next one (not counting solo drones)
    • Stunner builds. They need good aim first and can make up with lower mobility thought i like to have good (enough) mobility to be able to flank and use Hit and Run to shoot and stun.
    • In your face builds using Close Encounter don't want to use R&G as it would prevent CE from working so they want as high mobility as you can get (22 is quite nice)
  • Grenadier :
    • Sapper builds. I didn't use them much as i've been hugely desappointed by 1.2 sapper and didn't try it in 1.3-1.4. I guess they can live with low mobility and SMG.
    • Needle builds. Again they will usually have an SMG as they can kill people with their grenades/heavy weapons and still get loots. Low mobility is not an issue.
    • Support builds. Rapid Deployment allows you to flash/smoke and shoot. If you have decent aim, equipping a rifle would make sense so low mobility could be annoying but they don't need high mobility either.
  • Gunner. Except for one who rolled fleche at AWC i didn't use them much in GOps (infiltration penalty and limited mobility) so i didn't can much about mobility for them. Defense is important for tanky supression builds and i had one who rolled Lone Wolf and was really great as the solo tank for a snipers heavy squad.
  • Ranger :
    • Shooty builds need enough mobility since, as explained by others, they would fall behind otherwise with 2 shots/turn during combat.
    • EV builds don't need mobility that badly but i wouldn't go for 13 either (if given the choice) because 10 with equipment is really low and rangers usually need full gear (ammo+protection).
    • Shotgun builds can be really fun with high mobility/low aim rangers. They start with the Sawed off which makes them very strong early. Later with access to both RF and Implacable they can make some very efficient "hit and run" soldiers and at that point they will want to use a shotgun so they can't rely on SMG for mobility.
  • Sharpshooter :
    • Nest snipers don't care about mobility at all as long as they deploy on non timed missions. I don't like nest snipers on timed missions.
    • Snapshot builds need good mobility more than aim. Their Aim progression should be enough to guarantee 100% hit on flanked targets unless they are too far behind and have squadsight penalties. I think mobility is the most important stat for them.
  • Shinobi :
    • Walking battle scanner don't need much mobility.
    • Shooty builds need good mobility, especially if you plan to give them a rifle rather then SMG. Mobility is the most important stat for them just like the snapshot sniper since they play very similar by going for flanks.
    • Sword builds don't need much mobility, if at all. They will get an SMG, can always dash and attack and might drop an item more easily than other classes (no need for ammo) thought i like to give them a spare medikit just in case something goes wrong. Still, more mobility can mean more damage with fleche
  • Technical :
    • Rocketeer builds usually dash or use their rocket and can live with low mobility as long as the rest of the squad isn't too fast.
    • Middle column builds can make pretty good tanky shooters with access to shredder, rapid fire and maybe some AWC perks. Those would probably prefer decent mobility if you plan to give them a rifle. Just consider them as shooters with a rocket or two in case of emergency.
    • Flamer builds will get an SMG but need to get really close to use their flamethrower and can't dash to do it so very low mobility can be an issue. High mobility is usually not strictly required but can be comfortable.
  • Psi Op. Now they are a bit tricky due to the different combinations. Those that plan to use a lot of abilities, especially non turn ending abilities should have enough mobility to not lag behind (just like rangers). Those who mostly plan to tank and use passives with a Soulfire every other turn to replenish ablative HP can live with low mobility easily. Defensive stats are much more important to them. Finally if they have good aim they can quickly learn every pistol perk to gain a lot of firepower, in this case they need good mobility yo get in range for pistol.
Phaseless
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Phaseless »

Sparky79 wrote:
Phaseless wrote: Shinobis, despite moving a lot, IMO don't need that much mobility, because you need to be careful not to move too far into unknown territory anyway. Also since they almost never shoot, they always get an SMG for extra mobility.
I disagree with this.
Middle tree shinobi are great flankers.
Move to flank, fire on flanked target, then if in danger use free action to fall back or if not, use another attack to finish them (single shot, rapid fire or sword attack).

So for that mobility is vital.
I dare say though shooty shinobis are quite unusual and most times, most People will opt for a stealthy Scout shinobi because recon is what keeps you alive during missions.
LordYanaek
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by LordYanaek »

Phaseless wrote: I dare say though shooty shinobis are quite unusual and most times, most People will opt for a stealthy Scout shinobi because recon is what keeps you alive during missions.
Depends. I had 3 scoutnobis in my last campaign. 2 were real scouts doing scouting while the 3rd was leading a stealth squad with 2 specialists alternating deployment and medbay recovery so not sure he can really count as a "scout". At the same time i had 3 "shootnobis" and 2 "bladenobis".
I had several phantom soldiers in most GOps squads thought, counting some snapshot snipers, multiple shinobis and/or AWC perks so scouting was rarely lost at the first pod even if the shinobi had to shoot.

Even without multi phantom soldiers, a shootnobi can still scout until you need his firepower while a scoutnobi can hardly shoot if you're in a bad position so pure scouts for me were limited to large squads with multiple nest snipers on untimed missions and pure stealth squads. For 5-6 men GOps squads i didn't have the luxury to bring a tag along who can't contribute to the firepower.
Phaseless
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Phaseless »

LordYanaek wrote:
Phaseless wrote: I dare say though shooty shinobis are quite unusual and most times, most People will opt for a stealthy Scout shinobi because recon is what keeps you alive during missions.
Depends. I had 3 scoutnobis in my last campaign. 2 were real scouts doing scouting while the 3rd was leading a stealth squad with 2 specialists alternating deployment and medbay recovery so not sure he can really count as a "scout". At the same time i had 3 "shootnobis" and 2 "bladenobis".
I had several phantom soldiers in most GOps squads thought, counting some snapshot snipers, multiple shinobis and/or AWC perks so scouting was rarely lost at the first pod even if the shinobi had to shoot.

Even without multi phantom soldiers, a shootnobi can still scout until you need his firepower while a scoutnobi can hardly shoot if you're in a bad position so pure scouts for me were limited to large squads with multiple nest snipers on untimed missions and pure stealth squads. For 5-6 men GOps squads i didn't have the luxury to bring a tag along who can't contribute to the firepower.
Well ok if you got a squad of Phantoms you barely Need a dedicated Scout anyway so why bring a shinobi at all? IMO might as well have brought a dedicated damage dealer instead of a shootnobi.
Snipethis
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Snipethis »

So interesting to hear the different play styles. I read all the comments and found myself agreeing with a lot of the points made. But again - the way I play.. I love getting 3 shots from my EV rangers every turn (PCS + Tracers = hardly ever miss). Once I have lost concealment these are the guys I move first as they dash to high cover and if there is a pod then I either smoke or aid protocol them and let them be targeted proccing all the OW buffs.

Shinobis need speed. Kill and get out of dodge. Or Reaper across the map.

I did just get a 20mob assault with quick study.... :twisted:
Jacke
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Jacke »

Yes, the different play styles are interesting to see and hear about. Watching Xwynns Season 3, I decided to switch my Squad Officers from Specialist to Technical, which I was already planning for Haven Officers.
Snipethis wrote:I love getting 3 shots from my EV rangers every turn (PCS + Tracers = hardly ever miss). Once I have lost concealment these are the guys I move first as they dash to high cover and if there is a pod then I either smoke or aid protocol them and let them be targeted proccing all the OW buffs.
I think OW Specialists are almost as good and they mature at TSgt, while OW Rangers mature at GSgt. And you will need Crit Rangers to burn down big beasties as well as deal with the Sneks and ADVENT Scouts with Shadowstep.
Swiftless
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Swiftless »

LordYanaek wrote: [*]Shotgun builds can be really fun with high mobility/low aim rangers. They start with the Sawed off which makes them very strong early. Later with access to both RF and Implacable they can make some very efficient "hit and run" soldiers and at that point they will want to use a shotgun so they can't rely on SMG for mobility.[/list]
Interesting twist. Shotgun rangers are a lot of fun. I have two high mobility shotgun rangers but at late game (plasma weapons) I'm still keeping SMGs on them (they have 21 and 22 mobility). I find I usually have enough Sawed Off shots and with the damage output on the Mag shorty I don't feel the need to equip them with a shotgun. I find the higher mobility lets them cross bigger gaps and get hard-to-reach cover targets in the back that need a big punch in the face. If I need to main weapon shoot something with them I usually use the SMG as a way to clean up low hp targets, sometimes with a flank. You've intrigued me enough though I might have to try it with a shotgun main weapon variant.
LordYanaek
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by LordYanaek »

Phaseless wrote: Well ok if you got a squad of Phantoms you barely Need a dedicated Scout anyway so why bring a shinobi at all? IMO might as well have brought a dedicated damage dealer instead of a shootnobi.
A shootnobi is a damage dealer :mrgreen: Those squads didn't have a dedicated scout.

In addition they have Phantom right from the start while the other Phantom guys gained it later (or sometimes much later). If i had to wait for the sharpshooter (or some random guy with AWC training) to get Phantom it would mean those squads wouldn't have any scout in the early game (i'm playing with fixed squads BTW as it makes a lot more sense to me to keep people who are used to work together in the same squad - SG teams weren't mixed together for each mission were they :lol: )

But not everyone had phantom either, my best stealth squad had 3/5 phantom (shootnobi, bladenoby, and sharpshooter), another one had 3/6 (Shootnobi, Officer flamer tech and Ranger), remaining 2 GOps squads had only 1 Shinobi (Bladenoby or Shootnobi, no "walking battle scanner"), one of those mostly took on Towers and Smash and Grab and didn't really need to stay stealthy past the approach, the other one was lead by a Grenadier officer and was the heaviest of my GOps squads so the Shootnobi rarely had to reveal himself early but he was there in case i needed more firepower)

As i said in my first post, a lot depends on how you play.
cryptc
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by cryptc »

I consider mobility point for point as important as a utility slot. I generally aim to reach 12, 14 or 15 movement after gear, so when someone has 13 and a free slot, I add something useful that brings him down to 12 total (which is 8 blue move + 8 yellow move).
Psieye
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Psieye »

Phaseless wrote: I dare say though shooty shinobis are quite unusual and most times, most People will opt for a stealthy Scout shinobi because recon is what keeps you alive during missions.
Nearly all of my shinobi go shooty build (but with Shadowstep). Nothing else will do. They don't need to be concealed to do their job, though it helps a lot. Their job? Tank and spot for snipers. Eventually they can do silly things like "Hit & Run free flank shot -> Rapid Fire -> get Commanded -> Fleche to get into cover -> get targeted by Ghost Grenade".
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
Phaseless
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Phaseless »

Ok apparently my Walking battlescanner Approach is quite antiquated.
Is there nobody playing on legend who uses them for scouting mostly? I just wonder if you two just prefer it a different way or if there's just no reason to try and make them work as pure stealth Units in legend.
LordYanaek
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by LordYanaek »

Phaseless wrote:I just wonder if you two just prefer it a different way or if there's just no reason to try and make them work as pure stealth Units in legend.
The campaign i played was on Commander but i don't think i would do it different on Legend (i really need to start a 1.5 Legend campaign).
But i think it depend a lot on how you play, like many other things in LW2.

My GOps squad were low on heavy weapons due to infiltration penalty and me trying to do as many missions as possible but very rarely under 100% infiltration. As a result, apart from the odd rocket, i had close to nothing for cover removal and played very mobile, trying to take flanks. Snapshoters and Shootnobis are both great at that job while ranger are pretty bad (apart from EV builds but those can only shoot during enemy turns). At high enough rank, a Shootnobi was able to shoot 3 times on 2 different targets with my way of playing GOps while a Ranger could only shoot twice at the same target. That meant shootnobis were better damage dealers in GOps than rangers for me and the ranger who got Phantom at AWC often ended up being the scout for that squad rather than the shootnobi.

Psieye plays heavy 8-men squads on under-infiltrated missions that makes scouting hard and he needs good tanks, which Shinobis do surprisingly well for a "stealth" class. I suspect it affects his use of the Shinobis a lot.

Of course, a different play-style uses different builds so for your way of playing, it's entirely possible the scoutnobi is perfect and other builds wouldn't work at all. I think it's important that everyone finds what works best for them as trying to copy other players builds will probably fail if you play differently :)
Dwarfling
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Dwarfling »

Phaseless wrote:Ok apparently my Walking battlescanner Approach is quite antiquated.
Is there nobody playing on legend who uses them for scouting mostly? I just wonder if you two just prefer it a different way or if there's just no reason to try and make them work as pure stealth Units in legend.
I use them this way too. In fact on my current campaign I tried to my best to get a bunch of shinobis early: GTS start, 2 shinobis with high HP low mobility on the GTS queue, 3 random promotions and a LCpl Shinobi I picked in the Black Market for $55. My reasoning was that what really screws over missions for me was accidental activations and getting yellow alert'd from a vulnerable position, and Shinobis counter both of those, so I wanted to take at least 1 shinobi on each mission. Sadly I lost 1 of my shinobis because it got revealed and yellow alert'd, but so far I think I've avoided a bunch of wounds because I got a shinobi being a walking battlescanner for the first half of the mission.

I don't take Ghostwalker tho, but I take Covert on the Shinobis that didn't come with high dodge.
Phaseless
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Phaseless »

@lordyanaek
@dwarfling

Thanks for both your replies. My reasoning is the same as dwarflings, I use shinobis primarily to know the status of the map and if I can move safely. I enjoy that kind of playing. Gives me the feeling of having more control over the situation, which gives me a warm feeling :D
Snipethis
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Re: How important is mobility?

Post by Snipethis »

Phaseless wrote:@lordyanaek
@dwarfling

Thanks for both your replies. My reasoning is the same as dwarflings, I use shinobis primarily to know the status of the map and if I can move safely. I enjoy that kind of playing. Gives me the feeling of having more control over the situation, which gives me a warm feeling :D

Same here. I am currently in a Troop column with a really crappy squad (what the hell was I thinking), so I am going super cautious. Using my shinobi to scout only. I have him perched on a building overlooking 2 alleys where I know 4 pods roam and I am using my guys on the other side to activate one pod at a time. Trying to take down andromedons / codex / elite vipers / heavy mechs with laser weapons!
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