First death, incredibly soured.

Jacke
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Jacke »

8wayz wrote:The mod could use a better balance to make it less frustrating to players who haven't spent 200+ hours playing it.
Exactly so. At times it's just irritating hearing Xwynns comment on some internal facet that he can identify during gameplay that lets him know he can do certain things that aren't obvious from normal play of LW2. I will barely remember any of them. I know it's difficult making the guts of a game or mod produce the effects wanted. And that playtesters will always learn about the internal nature of things. I just wish it didn't seem like it's required knowledge to play well.

No matter how much effort we spend trying to convince and advise Tac1 that the game doesn't abuse whatever the apparent probability is, and what that probability means, and how to avoid RNG or encounter it at better odds, it doesn't help that LW2 is such that it sure seems like even beyond ADVENT getting all the advantages 8wayz lays out, it also seems to cheat. Are the numbers in Perfect Information for LW2 correct?
Phaseless
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Phaseless »

Jacke wrote:
8wayz wrote:The mod could use a better balance to make it less frustrating to players who haven't spent 200+ hours playing it.
Exactly so. At times it's just irritating hearing Xwynns comment on some internal facet that he can identify during gameplay that lets him know he can do certain things that aren't obvious from normal play of LW2. I will barely remember any of them. I know it's difficult making the guts of a game or mod produce the effects wanted. And that playtesters will always learn about the internal nature of things. I just wish it didn't seem like it's required knowledge to play well.

No matter how much effort we spend trying to convince and advise Tac1 that the game doesn't abuse whatever the apparent probability is, and what that probability means, and how to avoid RNG or encounter it at better odds, it doesn't help that LW2 is such that it sure seems like even beyond ADVENT getting all the advantages 8wayz lays out, it also seems to cheat. Are the numbers in Perfect Information for LW2 correct?
I agree with that as well. On the other hand I wonder, if it's asking too much. I haven't read the changelogs but I'd bet if you are willing to spend time reading, you will be able to read about most internal mechanics xwynns knows about himself. Plenty other games have bare minimum tutorials and want the players to find out themselves how things work.

The biggest point of critique in that regard would IMO be that there is not enough feedback to the player in LW2. You are told in no way for example that a retal cannot happen to a liberated region for 20 something days and if you never by chance heard about it, you might spend all your personell on intel in fear of losing it instead of getting maximum supplies while you can. You are not told what enemies are likely to do when they got disoriented. And so on. Might seem like little things, and they are, but they mass up as you can see because wynns has a giant advantage knowing all of this.
nmkaplan
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by nmkaplan »

Tac1 wrote:No, again, missing the point.

And I don't want your damn sympathy, about as valuable as dry milk.
Can I interrupt this discussion to ask about the origin of the phrase "as valuable as dry milk"? Is that an expression from some other language?

Dried milk is actually pretty valuable, and is generally more expensive than liquid milk, so this struck me as a very strange phrase. :D
Jacke
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Jacke »

Phaseless wrote:I agree with that as well. On the other hand I wonder, if it's asking too much. I haven't read the changelogs but I'd bet if you are willing to spend time reading, you will be able to read about most internal mechanics xwynns knows about himself. Plenty other games have bare minimum tutorials and want the players to find out themselves how things work.
This raises the intellectual burden in playing and mastering the game. As well there's a disconnect between what's presented on the UI and the greater detail of knowing what's underneath generating the missions, how and when that happens, and those missions becoming discovered through Haven intelligence allowing squads to be sent on them.
Phaseless wrote:The biggest point of critique in that regard would IMO be that there is not enough feedback to the player in LW2. You are told in no way for example that a retal cannot happen to a liberated region for 20 something days and if you never by chance heard about it, you might spend all your personell on intel in fear of losing it instead of getting maximum supplies while you can. You are not told what enemies are likely to do when they got disoriented. And so on. Might seem like little things, and they are, but they mass up as you can see because wynns has a giant advantage knowing all of this.
Definitely a lack of tactical knowledge, especially the difference between stock XCOM2 and LW2. There's a number of pages of information in the Commander's Quarters that definitely needs to be reviewed and should be skimmed every new campaign.

But there's also an issue that goes back to stock XCOM2: a lack of intelligence in a game about an insurgency. No where is the player presented with any sort of intelligence update on what ADVENT is doing, even when many zones are contacted. Why shouldn't there be a report saying where ADVENT shifted troops (even if it's only troops left or arrived), where there is a threat of retaliation or other ADVENT actions, where things appear safe for now. There's just the odd 3-week (or so) cycles, mission opportunities to launch against ADVENT, and forced missions that must be done to avoid certain consequences.

I know there's limits in what Pavonis can mod, especially with the translation requirements. I just wish the UI was better, with more reports and even a log of game actions and events.
Tac1
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Tac1 »

nmkaplan wrote:Can I interrupt this discussion to ask about the origin of the phrase "as valuable as dry milk"? Is that an expression from some other language?

Dried milk is actually pretty valuable, and is generally more expensive than liquid milk, so this struck me as a very strange phrase. :D
You can't drink dry milk. You can make it into milk proper, but it's like a bullet without powder. It's an old saying, like chewing the wood, or it's more modern phrase, biting the bullet.

And I binged JoINrb's videos earlier. There was very little I saw that I didn't already know. Did learn that Technical flamethrowers widen at specific distances, which in niche situations could allow you to shoot around corners. He has about as much luck with turn-1 Drone placement as I do, but he definitely had no trouble with his Overwatches. He makes a compelling argument against Walk Fire with Rangers, given that it does fall off terribly in mid and late game, but I can't justify not taking it after having it save my bacon so many times.

That, and my cruel habit of having 99% shots graze for 1 at the worst time, I'd rather just Walk Fire for 2-3 than try for 3-5 when I'll probably just roll for 3 anyway or graze it and hate myself.

I liked his appreciation for Technicals. I find a lot of people give them a bum rap for late-game use, but I found them beastly for putting down the shock&awe, clearing terrain for double Rangers and Gunners to just bulldoze entire pods at a time. Admittedly, watching him nail 6 Overwatch shots back-to-back, obliterating activating pods without so much as a breeze of effort, is hilariously defeating when I can Overwatch 8 Operatives from high-ground and still fail to kill even a basic Trooper.
Phaseless
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Phaseless »

I also love walk fire. I use it every mission 2-3 times to kill off weakened targets. Which could otherwise use up several actions or resources whi9ch feel wasted on them. If it really becomes useless in late game, you could retrain your guys, although it will take forever.
Icarus
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Icarus »

It doesn't take forever if you take out the scaling by soldier level on retrain times. Simple INI tweak though I don't remember where atm. If anyone's interested, I can try to find the parameter once I'm back home.
Tac1
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Tac1 »

Walk Fire has some use but, like a lot of Ranger traits, I find it gets phased out for better options. Why Walk Fire for half-damage when you can fire three times with Locked-On and potentially insta-kill something? Cover destruction, Snipers firing at 120% to hit through High-cover, Gunners piling brass, etc.

It's great early on for scoring needed shots on targets that need to die, but are just hanging on by one health and you haven't a grenade to spare, or would rather save it for something that doesn't have one foot already in a retirement home.

Ever Vigilant remains consistently useful, but I don't like Overwatch traits given how poor my luck with it's been thus far. Close and Personal... is probably the worst trait I've seen on a Ranger. I can't think of a time when I've had range to use it, but wasn't in range for a Sawn-off shot, and thought, "Damn. If I don't crit this, boy, I'm just screwed". If I'm that worried, I'll just Both-Barrels and vaporize them. I like Rangers, but it's a weird class. It doesn't really feel 'powerful' in the early game, but late game I start having so many other options that nothing they do really feels incredible.

But I love'em and won't have a squad without one. Plus, they're great for popping Drones and MECs with AP rounds and Light'Em'Up.
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8wayz
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by 8wayz »

Actually, I always pick Close and Personal for Crit Rangers. That perk begins to shine when you start encountering a lot of melee enemies. Those units by definition can not be flanked and get really close to you, so any extra crit chance against them is more than welcome. Oh, look, that Berserker is 1-tile away ? Three shots with Rapid Fire can fix that. Combined with Locked On and Executioner, you can get 40-50% Crit Chance against a melee unit just from your perks on your second or third shots.

Walk fire is rarely worth the pick as you simply break line of sight on most maps and pull the enemy to you, doing some Overwatch shots. That is also the reason why I take a Crit Ranger + Overwatch Ranger as a pair. They complement each other and allow you to take care of close to mid-range target.
Tac1
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Tac1 »

I've never had much trouble with melee threats, honestly. Usually what little reaches me can just be dusted by a Sawn-off blast or just shot regularly, since Light'Em'Up is hilariously effective against Lancers who think ending their turn out of cover is a good plan. What usually gives me problems is Gunners in high-cover one-shotting people through cover, surprise triple-Viper pods sniping people left and right, and the UI having a stroke and causing miss-clicks that leave people standing in the open.
Psieye
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Psieye »

I think he means 25 HP Berserkers and Soldier Chryssalids, not T1 Stun Lancers.
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Tac1
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Tac1 »

Again, Both-Barrels alone usually suffices to blow off most of their health and leave them easy enough for an Assault or Sharpshooter to one-tap. Worst I might need is a Command for the action after moving my Ranger, and maybe an extra shot, but it's been pretty consistent as a solution.

The Sawn-Off is an amazing secondary without any traits at all to improve it, so I've never felt the need to do so.
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8wayz
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by 8wayz »

@ Tac1

The Sawn-Off Shotgun works in the very early game as it will one shot almost anything from close range. From mid-game onwards it will barely one shot most of the aliens coming toe-to-toe with you, so you are better off to use perks that improve your damage or Crit chance (Deadeye, Rupture, Close and Personal, Kubikiri and others). Also there is no way to upgrade it, unlike your main weapon.

The biggest downside of the Sawn-Off Shotgun is that it ends your turn. You can do in general more damage with your two regular shots which should hit from close range, than with the shotgun, especially when you add the other perks that improve your critical chance.

As I pointed out, it takes a few months to see the benefits from Close and Personal, but that perk will be useful through the whole campaign. Walk Fire will only help you in the early game and that is it.
Tac1
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Tac1 »

What? You can upgrade the Sawn-off.
Icarus
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Icarus »

Tac1 wrote:What? You can upgrade the Sawn-off.
You can, but only to Mag Shorty, which requires Advanced Coil according to Ufopaedia. Which leaves you hanging from early midgame to late midgame. When your guys use mag weapons, a rifle shot does the same damage as a one-barrel shotgun, and a ranger double-shot the same as a double-barrel shot.
Phaseless
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Phaseless »

I lovehate your good Points against walk fire here
gimrah
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by gimrah »

Rangers tend to split between two types re the sawn-off. Low/mid mobility soldiers with rifles who will only occasionally use their sawn-off and even then mostly only in the early game. And high mobility SMG users who take pump action and use the sawn-off a lot throughout that game.

For the riflemen you should go walk fire or EV because they are never going to be using their rifle at close range and they will rarely get to use the sawn off. So they don't get much out of C&P.

EV is pretty obvious for the OW build. I really like walk fire for non-OW shooty build and I do not like crit perks on that build. This is because the crit perks are a bit meh in LW2, e.g. BEO requires you to be surrounded by a huge horde of ayys before it does much and aggression similar to some extent (whereas I loved crit rangers in LW1). And C&P doesn't work well with rifles. But left side rangers can become very good at picking off enemies in good cover, e.g. with walk fire, locked on, executioner, and a hyper-reactive PCS.

And therefore centre mass goes on both left side and center column builds. The left side rifleman benefits from base damage more than crit. The center column build gets the center mass damage on his SMG and sawn-off, and SMG benefits disproportionately from center mass because of its low base damage.
Psieye
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by Psieye »

gimrah wrote:high mobility SMG users who take pump action
Hmm, I had shunned the concept of SMG ranger but high tech SMGs do respectable damage. In my last 2 campaigns any ranger candidate became a snapshot sniper instead. My current campaign should shed some light on what a crit/tank ranger is like for me.

As for Walk Fire, I wouldn't take it unless AWC perks (init edit to plan ahead) spoke otherwise (like Shredder or Untouchable). Redscreen with Walk Fire to get an easy extra body that's mostly intact is nice, but AWC init lets me find some non-gunner that finds Flush.
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TrainInVain
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Re: First death, incredibly soured.

Post by TrainInVain »

Icarus wrote:
Tac1 wrote:What? You can upgrade the Sawn-off.
You can, but only to Mag Shorty, which requires Advanced Coil according to Ufopaedia. Which leaves you hanging from early midgame to late midgame. When your guys use mag weapons, a rifle shot does the same damage as a one-barrel shotgun, and a ranger double-shot the same as a double-barrel shot.
The shotguns do have a +15% crit chance though.
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