Mid-campaign thoughts

[Snipethis]

Just wanted to get these down as I remember them..

Its early Oct and I am charging to the end. I have 20 warden armors and most are carrying coil weapons with advanced or elite level attachments. I have 12 scientists, 10 engineers, 4 liberated regions (and one more HQ lined up). Legions at 50 something. When a region gets to 6 I move everyone to hiding as I dont want any invasions. I pull in about 2000 supplies a month, but running low on intel, crystals and alloys. The base is fully built out and manned.

I have around 55 guys, 15 of which are Msgts and around 10 officers of various levels. Broadly speaking, 8 shinobi, 7 assaults, 6 rangers, 5 sharps, 6 grenadiers, 6 techs, 7 psi and 7 specialists. All shinobi are blades, all rangers are OW, all except one sharp are Double tap DFAs (one rolled rapid reaction). 4 bomber grenadiers, 2 support. Rest are hybrids of diff flavors. Had 6 deaths including 2 Msgts on a HQ mission gone wrong.

So observations:
- Immensely enjoyable. Had some very dicey moments where I activate 10-12 at a time. Everytime its a diff solution with diff risk levels. Sometimes a crucial insanity mind controls (last night on a great archon). Sometimes a 100% fleche misses leaving shinobi exposed. Its all been fun.

- Steady weapon only procs if you kill on the second shot of the Double tap (even if you kill on the first shot)

- Stasis on an ally doesnt goad Advent to hit them even if they are completely exposed (I learnt this the hard way)

- Hazmats are crucial (alternatively acid bombs absolutely wreck you)

- Incendiaries -> Win; and gas grenades have been used a lot more than I would have thought.

- Rangers with Redscreen rounds + Specialist combo amazingly well. Huge benefit of venom rounds on rapid reaction fellows as it has the same effect as disorient on any organic enemies

- Whirlwind + Bladestorm are godly. Fleche in, then move back to any enemy and stand next to them. They are flanked so they move and the shinobi gets a cheeky hit on the way. Dont do this on mutons unless you can kill on a min roll slash.

- I have run out of things to build on the base and still have 2 spaces left. This feels like a misstep. I even built a defense matrix. Second AWC or GTS?

- Psi's get a lot of hate. I think they are OP for the control they give you. 2 Psi's + Specialist and you can fill the squad with almost anything and the mission will be a success. Insanity is nuts. Stasis saves the Oh crap moment. Soulfire ignore armor and cover. Void + Schism is mission ending. Fortress + Bastion is almost free hazmat on everyone. And then we have domination.

- Not sure how the Msgts donating their mission xp is calculated. I had a Data tap with 20 enemies, 8-man with 5 Msgts. None of the 3 got promoted despite one (non-Msgt) assault having 4 kills.

- Exo on techs are awesome. On specialists not so sure. One use of the shredder gun isnt all that. Currently wondering if I switch. Researching WAR suit so maybe that changes things.

There's more but I cant think right now.

[TrainInVain]

Excellent write up.

Not sure I agree on Psi being overpowered. Feels to me more like a necessary equalizer, at least at my skill level. One of my favorite things is getting a muton elite or other high defensive perks advent aid protocol them in high cover and watch advent miss all their shots. Make all the alien perks from dark events I couldn't stop work for me.

Hmmm I haven't tried void + schism, gonna try that out in my new campaign when I get to psi.

[Tac1]

Honestly, I always found Psi a bit of a crutch. Something that helped brute-force mistakes that should have seriously cost me. After I stopped using them, I started getting my tail whipped bad and had to get better at 'conventional' tactics to make up for it. Things like Stasis and Insanity can be hilariously effortless at trivializing a fight that would have otherwise forced you to think hard for a minute or so.

[Psieye]

The hate on Psi probably stems from when to get it. It's a huge cost in scientist time and Avenger power. Attempts to rush it have met with disappointment. Inevitably it's useful when obtained at a reasonable time. Left too late and it feels they'll never rank up enough.

As for EXO, if you get them around the time Sidewinders and Mecs start appearing, they are godly. Needle grenadier even preserves corpses while wiping 2~3 pods' worth of enemies. In time they become a merely-decent way of shredding armour. Used to be they'd destroy cover too but that got nerfed.

[Dwarfling]

My biggest beef with Psi is that it's a logistics headache.

1st: it strains your supplies. It's $30 for Psionics and $150 for the building. It also needs power, so you can't have it and a GTS+AWC unless you luck out on a PoI. It also requires recruits, that's $20 a pop in Legendary and it's not like you get a ton. I'd add the Adv. Psi Amp costs but I guess they usually take ballistics SMGs so it compensates. Tho the sectoid corpses can be sold out for $10 each.

2nd: You need to sidestep your research from weapon and armor tech, which makes ALL your other soldiers better. Granted this is a bit easier if you manage to nab an instant Sectoid autopsy, but that depends on luck mostly. And then if you want your Psi soldiers to train in a decent amount of time you need to reduce your research times by assigning a scientist to the building.

3rd: You are putting all those investments into just a few soldiers instead of all your barracks. Those $180 can be turned into a lot of useful things: a scientist, weapons, armor, items, buildings... Nevermind the research lost.

[Swiftless]

Everything Dwarfling mentioned plus the fact that they're in the tubes all the time. Seems counterproductive from a gameplay enjoyment perspective for me that you have this class you don't get to spend a lot of time with because in order to advance them they have to sit in layaway all the time. I tend to ignore going Psi these days as a result.

[Snipethis]

Hardly surprising my one Psi comment generates all the replies. Anyway..

Honestly, I always found Psi a bit of a crutch. Something that helped brute-force mistakes that should have seriously cost me. After I stopped using them, I started getting my tail whipped bad and had to get better at 'conventional' tactics to make up for it. Things like Stasis and Insanity can be hilariously effortless at trivializing a fight that would have otherwise forced you to think hard for a minute or so.

Isnt this comment just another way of saying Psi is OP if NOT having them forces you to change the way you play?

The hate on Psi probably stems from when to get it. It's a huge cost in scientist time and Avenger power. Attempts to rush it have met with disappointment. Inevitably it's useful when obtained at a reasonable time. Left too late and it feels they'll never rank up enough

Yep fair enough. In this game I was lucky in that I kept getting scientists so I could always have the Psi chambers full with 2. I also went for liberations specifically to solve the supplies issues for me to afford buying the rookies and the other stuff. Having 7 Psi's meant I could always have the tubes full and still have Psi's out in the field getting promotions.

Dwarfling : Psi's only require supplies and scientists. I aimed for libs to solve problem 1 and 3 (scientist as haven advisor + avenger to blast through the lib chain). Luck solved problem 2, but libs could also solve 2 if I had to buy a scientist. I am short alloys and crystals - neither of which were requirements for Psi so it hasnt actually "cost" the development of my soldiers.

[Psieye]

It is true that people prefer to plan their campaign flavours in advance instead of reacting to some luck. While most players come to accept RNG dictating whether their shot hits the target, it's a lot less comfortable facing the RNG that dictates the direction your campaign goes in. That 'strategic RNG' can be mitigated for, but only so much.

Psi's only require supplies and scientists.

The price of Psi is a delay in reaching Coilguns which might be fatal if M3 dudes show up regularly before you're comfortably outfitting them. In other words, the decision to get Psi around May might backfire on you around September (i.e. a LOT of playtime later) which is scary to contemplate. Something needs to be documented by Psi pioneers on how M3 dudes get solved with inferior equipment. Thus far, everyone who gave their support for Psi say nothing about what their campaign looks like with M3 Advent. Dismissing these concerns by saying 'only' makes Psi-wary players unsure how to evaluate your position.


On a side note, I wonder what the "Number of Engineers" requirements are for various things. In my previous 1.5 campaign (which is on hold, may return to it) I was caught off-guard by Adv. Grenade Launchers needing 4 Engineers in addition to Mag Wep research.

[Tac1]

Isnt this comment just another way of saying Psi is OP if NOT having them forces you to change the way you play?

I wouldn't say they're overpowered, especially given how late they come into the game and how much it costs you to do it, but I do think it's easy to rely on their ability to just flip a switch on enemies. It's about the same as Ever Vigilant and Lightning Reflexes. Not necessarily overpowered, but if you're used to always using these and suddenly stop, it will have a noticeable effect on how you play.

[Snipethis]

The price of Psi is a delay in reaching Coilguns which might be fatal if M3 dudes show up regularly before you're comfortably outfitting them. In other words, the decision to get Psi around May might backfire on you around September (i.e. a LOT of playtime later) which is scary to contemplate. Something needs to be documented by Psi pioneers on how M3 dudes get solved with inferior equipment. Thus far, everyone who gave their support for Psi say nothing about what their campaign looks like with M3 Advent. Dismissing these concerns by saying 'only' makes Psi-wary players unsure how to evaluate your position.

Fair point. I dealt with M3's using incendiaries and by then I had one or 2 guys with stasis, so I used that (if insanity failed). So I didnt feel that M3 were that big a prob mainly due to the next point I am going to make:

My game completely turned on one single event : my DFA sniper rolling rapid reaction. After that she basically would kill 3 things every turn. M3 show up, she hits them for 15 and an assault or OW ranger cleans them up. Even without my crazy sniper I was handling them fine in 1.4 when incendiaries caused 100% burning. By the time that ends I normally had 1 or 2 guys free to dedicate to M3 death.

The biggest bump I had was when Andromedons showed up. Almost caused a squad wipe with his acid grenade + aim +punch. I basically ran for cover, and got the hell out (thankfully it was a fixed evac mission).

[Psieye]

My game completely turned on one single event : my DFA sniper rolling rapid reaction. After that she basically would kill 3 things every turn. M3 show up, she hits them for 15 and an assault or OW ranger cleans them up. Even without my crazy sniper I was handling them fine in 1.4 when incendiaries caused 100% burning. By the time that ends I normally had 1 or 2 guys free to dedicate to M3 death.

While that would make an amazing A-team, I think the threshold of "A-teams only" is around November or December when Sectopods and Gatekeepers threaten every GOp. October is the point of "M3s are around but you still have B-teams running around". From what I infer, your 7 Psi dudes are your solution to M3 while you're getting Coilguns widely available. Assuming 2 are in the tubes and maybe 1~2 are wounded at a time, that still gives you at least 3 squads with Psi support.

What is Insanity (success chance) like against M3 dudes? How much can you lean on Psi damage skills?

[gimrah]

Insanity chances on M3s hover around 50ish with a DSC/MYS level psi op (i.e. SGT/SSGT) and T2 amp.

If you have WAR/MYS with T3 amp and neurowhip it's more like 90s, which also implies a high chance to MC on success. Of course T3 amps require gatekeeper shells, so that's end game tech. But 70s/80s without T3 amp is still decent.

I want to try a psi rush next campaign (staying on commander). I doubt it'll work that well but we'll see. My current campaign was a successful mag rush (i.e. laser skip), so I know I can last a while without lasers.

[Snipethis]

If you have WAR/MYS with T3 amp and neurowhip it's more like 90s, which also implies a high chance to MC on success. Of course T3 amps require gatekeeper shells, so that's end game tech. But 70s/80s without T3 amp is still decent.

This. 75% to hit on insanity, with 2 of the 3 outcomes being either mind control or panic and the M3 is controlled for either 1 turn or 3. With no cooldown. Its pretty huge. Also add in a Psi PCS to the above probabilities. I tend to use these guys near the front so they can get to the grenediers / snipers / shieldbearers hiding at the back or to goad the viper into spitting. For that reason some of my guys will also carry an incendiary or flashbang or maybe a real rifle to use during cooldown. I think they are awesome.

[Phaseless]

I also don't get the hate of psi ops. I started training them in august and they immediatly pull their weight. They are a better combat protocol with inventory space for support stuff like meds and smokes and can even throw an insanity or mind merge without ending the turn. And they get better from there very very fast.

[gimrah]

If you have WAR/MYS with T3 amp and neurowhip it's more like 90s, which also implies a high chance to MC on success. Of course T3 amps require gatekeeper shells, so that's end game tech. But 70s/80s without T3 amp is still decent.

This. 75% to hit on insanity, with 2 of the 3 outcomes being either mind control or panic and the M3 is controlled for either 1 turn or 3. With no cooldown. Its pretty huge. Also add in a Psi PCS to the above probabilities. I tend to use these guys near the front so they can get to the grenediers / snipers / shieldbearers hiding at the back or to goad the viper into spitting. For that reason some of my guys will also carry an incendiary or flashbang or maybe a real rifle to use during cooldown. I think they are awesome.

I was assuming a superior psi PCS in those numbers on a mid 20s psi offence rookie (higher is possible but rare). So 90-something psi offence before gear. With the neurowhip as well, which isn't cheap mid-game and uses a slot.

[Snipethis]

With the neurowhip as well, which isn't cheap mid-game and uses a slot.

Yes, but would you send a grenadier out without an incendiary? Grenades are one time use items. Neurowhip makes infinite-use insanity better all the time. While we are on the subject.. would neurowhip or psi PCS increase soulforge damage or mind meld attributes?

[Psieye]

would you send a grenadier out without an incendiary?

Actually yes. Incendiaries are for other people to carry (at least, in 1.4 when it was guaranteed to burn). Grenadier has more important consumables to carry - smokes. If the grenadier has Smoker from AWC I will then consider either an incendiary or flashbang instead of a 5th smoke. But 4 seems about the right number for smoke grenades in a serious mission.

[Snipethis]

Actually yes. Incendiaries are for other people to carry (at least, in 1.4 when it was guaranteed to burn). Grenadier has more important consumables to carry - smokes. If the grenadier has Smoker from AWC I will then consider either an incendiary or flashbang instead of a 5th smoke. But 4 seems about the right number for smoke grenades in a serious mission.

Yea, I guess we play somewhat differently.