Scientist in demand

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Scientist in demand

Post by SonnyWiFiHr » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:30 pm

Can't get Scientists in first week missions. First week only gives Engineer at best. I don't need Mr. ENG because I don't need AWC or PG until April or anything on Avenger . Can't train AWC because of shortage of rookies (and I need Mr. SCI for healing). OTS is nice but not needed.

With my luck I will research Basic Research for next 6 months and this will not help with healing times.
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Steve-O
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Steve-O » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:49 pm

Black Market usually has at least one Scientist & Engineer for hire per month, in my experience. This option exists specifically to address the case you're stuck in, where no Scientists are dropping from missions.

Dwarfling
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Dwarfling » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:58 pm

That's what the Black Market is there for. If you get Engineers, you use the excavation supplies (and other sources) to buy Scientists.

Usually I'd start the GTS on day 1, a rescue for Engineer happens, engineer excavates for ~$45 and either with S&G supplies or selling loot and trooper corpses I can buy the BM scientist before the first Supply Drop.

faket15
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by faket15 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:58 pm

You will never get a scientist reward on a mission that spawns from a day one activity because Rescue/Extract rewards when you don't have an engineer will always be engineers. For a similar reason any Rescue/Extract that spawns from an activity that starts after you get your first engineer but before you get your first scientist will have a scientist reward.

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by SonnyWiFiHr » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:13 am

You will hardly ever get scientist in first month. It seems that ratio Eng/soldier/Scientist is 4/2/1.
Usually I get this numbers - 12 Eng to change one light bulb.
Few soldiers, screwed ones .
One Scientist if you are lucky in second region. And after I have researched something to replace them
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Dwarfling
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Dwarfling » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:09 am

Is this a whine thread? Cuz I thought only Tac1 was allowed to do them.

Check this out:

Image

Icarus
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Icarus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:47 am

Dwarfling wrote:Is this a whine thread? Cuz I thought only Tac1 was allowed to do them.

Check this out: [...]
3 of those I understand (2 bought, 1 mission). The rest: dumb luck?

Dwarfling
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Dwarfling » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:41 am

Black Market (after engineer dig), Black Market (after S&G), rescue, rescue, PoI, rescue (Lib2).

Icarus
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Icarus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:53 am

Dwarfling wrote:Black Market (after engineer dig), Black Market (after S&G), rescue, rescue, PoI, rescue (Lib2).
Right, forgot POIs can yield scientists.

But I think this overall qualifies for "dumb luck". ;)

Dwarfling
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Dwarfling » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:26 am

Well yes, specially with the PoI, but it was just to show that no, there's no bias towards no scientists. Either buy the scientists or make due with what you get.

Tho, to tell you the truth I abandoned that campaign shortly after that caption because milking the first 2 regions for missions incorrectly led to those regions going to +4 strenght, and I had no intel to expand to a 3rd. At that point I was having no fun and called it quits.

Tac1
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Tac1 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:52 pm

Dwarfling wrote:Is this a whine thread? Cuz I thought only Tac1 was allowed to do them.
Touched a nerve? Either way, just because it isn't your thread doesn't mean this isn't a whine post. My patent still holds and my lawyer will be in touch.

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by SonnyWiFiHr » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:57 pm

Who is whining ? I m still able to save scum. My lawyer is scum (save?)

I have save scum results.
Ratio is 24+ / 6 / 1 Eng /soldier/ Scientist.

This is intended . How the get more scientist when it is beneficial ?!
My answer is save scum or contact second region on 6th march. First few missions should be over by 5th may. If you want to research fast.
Never do 100% inf. mission it consume time. You need sci ASAP, this will make your game even harder. Use bomb everything approach and do 15% missions.
Time + scientist = research

Or
Mission rewards should be more fair.

When I find my save game from 1.4 I will post picture with 12 sci by 15 march and even on Legendary I can get more but this require 3 men missions And lots of intel rewards
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Tac1
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Tac1 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:18 pm

The rewards are fair, it's the inconsistency that isn't fair. I've had campaigns where I'm settling into December and the only Scientists are ones I've bought, with others that I've not even made it to May and I've had 5 Scientists solely from missions. RNG just has a habit of soiling any good decision you make.

Phaseless
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Phaseless » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:09 pm

Inconsistency is as unfair as it is fair. Bad luck does not equal systematic unfairness or disadvantage. And there are mechanisms that help you out, like the possibility of buying what you lack. You will have to do that either way usually. If you don't have to buy scientists, you have to buy engineers. Or recruits.
If there was a proper chance for you to get everything you need from mission rewards, then the strategic play would lack a serious challenge in the "make good decisions" department. The game is intended to make you cope with shortages and other dilemmas.

Tac1
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Tac1 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:47 pm

And in the process of trying that, it occasionally throws you a problem you can't physically resolve.

TrainInVain
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by TrainInVain » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:50 pm

Inconsistency is good for replayability in this case. I think it would get boring real quick if we could use the exact same pattern over and over in the strategic layer.

Tac1
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Tac1 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:12 pm

No arguments there. But a lack of consistency makes for pointless gameplay.

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by SonnyWiFiHr » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:09 am

My save scum test conclusion.
Liberation 2 will give scientist.
Rest of missions can yield you so many eng that you can build bridge to Mars , Venus and all other planets.
Now I m finishing 3rd and 4th mission in starting region (Gatecraher not counted) It is March 10 . I m contacting second region (still in progress).
I will try to at 1.00 AM March 11 get missions in both regions. And save scum results for scientific purpose.

One should be Scientist .
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Phaseless
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Phaseless » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:13 pm

Tac1 wrote:No arguments there. But a lack of consistency makes for pointless gameplay.
By that logic every roguelike game has pointless gameplay.
Not sure I agree :D

Icarus
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Icarus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:03 pm

Phaseless wrote:
Tac1 wrote:No arguments there. But a lack of consistency makes for pointless gameplay.
By that logic every roguelike game has pointless gameplay.
Not sure I agree :D
Not sure I want my games to play like roguelikes. I do think that too much consistency makes for repetitive gameplay instead, though.

The game needs enough randomness to surprise the player, but not as much as to make strategic play too unpredictable. Naturally, people have different opinions about the correct level of randomness.

My opinion is that this aspect is okay as is, since you have buying scientists as a coping mechanism. It could maybe improved by adjusting the chances a bit towards what the player lacks (counting rewards, not overall number). But that would be complicated and would probably not alleviate the situation.

I did restart games where I didn't get scientists in missions. I also restarted games where I got too many.

Dwarfling
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Dwarfling » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:28 pm

Thing is, the only bad rewards are the soldiers. If you get plenty engineers, you dig faster and with those supplies you buy the scientists. Also you won't have to build a Workshop for a while, if at all. If you need personnel you can fish them with Lib2, granted, infiltration times on those tend to suck.

Tac1
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Tac1 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:06 pm

I think Barony is a good example of inconsistency and variable gameplay being taken too far. Nearly every run of that game devolves solely into RNG. If you don't get good equipment along the way, you'll just get destroyed, even if you make it to the Baron. Can't find food? Starvation becomes unavoidable. Encountering a mini-boss very early in a run can cause a death you can't really avoid without a fair measure of luck. At the same time, finding Arthur's sword, fully-blessed plate armour, and magic-resist gear can effectively ensure a win before you've even gone down to the next floor.

The consistency issue in XCOM is easily seen by the way it shapes and often forces tactics. Grenades are often spammed in the early game, because they are consistent and reliable. While rifle fire, in theory, is more powerful, it's too inconsistent. Too easy to have a few shots miss and obliterate your damage potential for a turn. Lightning Reflexes is so powerful because it's an extremely consistent means to deal with Overwatch. Conversely, Covering Fire is a dumpster fire because it isn't merely inconsistently useful, but may actually hurt you.

It's always been known that letting the enemy take a shot is risky. A flashbang helps, but it's generally only 'viable' to combine it with full-cover, smoke grenades, Aid Protocol, Suppression, and Hunkering down to ensure the enemy has literally no shot to take. Even a 1% shot stands to utterly ruin a mission, and can make what was an otherwise solid use of tactics and resources into a failure regardless.

I recommend buying a Scientist and Engineer at the start of nearly every campaign, solely to duck the inconsistency of missions providing or denying them. It hurts the initial supply game, which becomes another inconsistent issue as to how rich you may or may not be later, but at least you can tackle that by selling loot at the market.

Like Icarus said, there should be a level of predictability. If there's nothing consistent, there's no thought or strategy. You're as likely to win taking a lottery on your next action than you are to actually think it through.

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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by SonnyWiFiHr » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:53 pm

RND is welcome but if it works like this.
I missed something and I will have chance to get that later.

Soldiers as rewards:
- Getting 7 HP sniper after hard mission is restart campaign :( :( :o :arrow: NCE
- I actually need Sniper but that ? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :evil: :arrow: NCE
- Not doing missions with soldier as reward hurts gameplay and sanity
- Why not rookie ?
Eng as reward :
- C'mon. 6 Eng for two slots ?
- I spend my money to buy one. Can we sale them ?

Basic research as reward - best reward ever to replace scientist deficit.
Liberation 2 is still best source of Scientist if you do not play Legendary.
Found save with 11 of them before April. This is overkill I admit
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by SonnyWiFiHr » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:32 pm

Does anybody have same results as I ?

Or I m cursed.?!

How many Scientist do you get by 1 april ?
Liberation 2 does not count. Because 11 vs 0 both 1.5 campaign (with hotfix) and I did not even get to April 1 (my day)
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Dwarfling
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Re: Scientist in demand

Post by Dwarfling » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:55 am

Does April 4th count? I just rescued the 2nd scientist (engineer, scientist, scientist). I'm looking for missions on the 1st and 2nd region tho, but picking the ones on the 2nd region very carefully to not bloat it with vigilance.

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