Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Psieye
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Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Psieye »

So I figure my walls of text aren't easy to digest. I'll occasionally update this thread so I can hold discussion without people needing to read hundreds of repetitive words.

I'm in mid-April, Laser is about to come online and Force has just hit 3. I've had shit luck with getting scientists so I've bought 3 from the BM. GTS is about to be done, but I don't know when I'll ever afford AWC - probably after I somehow buy Vulture. I'm managing about 3 active squads at a time, as 1/3 of my barracks is wounded. While this campaign looks shit compared to my Commander starts, I'm assuming this is Situation Normal (well, given poor scientist yield) for Legendary.

It bothers me that I 'rushed' for Laser when I should have beelined to AP rounds first: THAT is the damage upgrade that snipers/gunners need. I've been trying to field pairs of Needle grenadiers but wounds and the need for shred means I can't ever spare the frags for what I want to do: if I get AWC out reasonably I might spend time respeccing them - ah who am I kidding, I'd sooner restart the campaign over doctrine errors like this. Maybe even go PG first then GTS second. I'm also questioning going for Basic Research right at the start - perhaps waiting until a scientist has been obtained from missions/PoI. Early access to things like nanovest and alloy plating make a huge difference to wound times (and thus, barracks strength).

I feel I need to spike Vig up fast (to shut out non-intel GOps) and use small stealth teams to get intel from ProtectData, anti-DE missions, etc. Also to start farming Troop Columns for income (like hell there'll be time to do any non-story autopsy in the earlygame).
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Basic research is double edge sword.
Can't remember when you start it but starting it early is huge investment vs mediocre when you have more sci.
If you rolled just one scientist more (and early) then your research speeds up by more than 50% cutting B. Research to desired level.
In your case best starting point is second sci from BM but one sci is fine.
It depends on what your research priority is.
(I will go for vests and BR is lower priority until I have double or triple sci on deck- it is expensive research).

I see 3rd Legendary start in making but you will be fine even with current. If you plan to restart then restart now not in May.
It is Legendary play - not a Perfect play. Perfect play needs few starts and good RNG for whole March.
My good start is Eng + rebels (jailbreak) and good timers. Why eng ? I think that eng is scripted as reward and I want sci in second cycle or in second region and usually this is only way to obtain them early for 50% sure (it is soldier vs sci usually but we are in mercy of RNG). Last time I got two sci. Who knows ? One thing is sure with 3 sci you are rushing everything and Basic research is cheap if you still need it
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8wayz
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by 8wayz »

I do not know whether you have played Long War 1 on Impossible difficulty, the Geoscape gameplay is almost the same in Long War 2.

You have so many things that you need to build and acquire in the first 3 months and all of them are more expensive and slower to build than compared to Commander. Laser rush is good, just focus on the weapons and equipment you need and go from there. Make sure to grow your barracks accordingly, as you will have a lot more wounded soldiers.

I am not a big fan of Basic research for the same reason you pointed out - doing 1 or 2 research projects that can give you access to much needed equipment makes your life a lot easier.
gimrah
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by gimrah »

On commander I always run a basic research after resistance comms and weapon mods. I have also run rush builds in 2 campaigns for mag and psi respectively. That gives me some experience in fighting up to May with ballistics, which may have some parallels for your Legend issues.

My chief recommendation is to steer away from smgs where it makes sense. Eg secondary focused builds should take rifles if they have good aim or shotguns if they have good movement. You will really appreciate having those extra shots with kill potential. Yes, fewer flanks, but at least you'll kill when you get them. I only use smgs on shinobis and low aim rookies.

Otherwise you must have AP by the time MECs show up. They are the toughest early enemy while undergeared.

I wouldn't sweat scientist timing overly. If you don't get one from an extract early, you probably got an extra engie or S&G to give resources to buy one. GTS is nice asap but not essential. If you are rich in scientists, early AWC can be nice. I would not go PG first - you need lots of corpses for that to pay off.

I would not take needle on grenadiers. The other two are so much more powerful than sometimes not getting an extra basic hair trigger. Rapid deployment would always be my pick - action economy on key turns is super valuable.
Jacke
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Jacke »

I've not a lot of experience with Legendary game starts, but I think Basic Research should come 1st, 2nd, or 3rd interleaved with Basic Communictations and Modular Weapons, with Alien Biotech never later than 4th so that AP Rounds are unlocked.
gimrah wrote:I would not take needle on grenadiers. The other two are so much more powerful than sometimes not getting an extra basic hair trigger. Rapid deployment would always be my pick - action economy on key turns is super valuable.
I used Needle Grenades in my initial games, but soon decided it wasn't worth it, especially as Frag Grenades are often used to initially damage enemy and usually weren't enough on Legendary to kill outright. Otherwise, you might lose some loot and corpses, but you gain more with either Rapid Deployment or Sapper.
Psieye
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Psieye »

No I don't have experience with LW1 (at any difficulty). Somehow completely missed that and I don't have time to go back to play it.

MECs I somewhat coped with despite no AP rounds. It was when Mutons showed up that I realised I'd fucked up my research order so bad. Turrets are also bad news if you don't bring AP or CP.

Needle might have a place for late joiner grenadiers but even so it feels strictly for surplus guys. With Legendary tightening the belt so much, probably unrealistic. It's nice to have the option for frags to be the 'guaranteed damage to finish expensive-loot enemies' but you give up too much for that.
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Psieye
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Psieye »

So I've started another campaign (from a prevoius save). I'm seeing evidence that ini tweaks after the campaign is made don't seem to change things. {Edit: actually, found a comment in the ini that PoliticalPrisoners will always give 3 in the earlygame}. I am making myself physically sick (quite literally) playing LW2 so I should put this down for some time.

Anyway, the campaign got off to an... average(?) start. Day 2 Rendezvous was freak luck - after 1 GOp I had a Cpl sniper. Bought an Engineer and Scientist from BM, got a Scientist from HighValuePrisoner. Delayed Basic Research and building an early PG. The 2nd region (Str 3) completely missed both GOps: PoliticalPrisoners was detected with 4-ish days left and the 4-man sent there could not stealth it (evac too far) though they did get out with no wounds. Somehow that region found a Tactical DE mission and a 4-man squad theoretically (read: save scumming) could semi-stealth it. Now I'm finding even more missoins (Lib1, Protectdata) that are promising a quick 3rd region if only I can 4-man some more.

I should get used to doing 4-man semi-stealth missoins. My early April 4-man of choice is Spec, Shinobi, RD Grenadier, Sniper. The grenadier brings shotgun, flash, 2 frag. This setup does not fear solo Drones and can handle one pod of 2-man with generous frag spam. Legendary evac flares are unlikely to allow the classic "hack and rope out" move unless the spec never encounters an obstruction.

I'm likely trying to take too little losses - by which I mean getting desirable GOps detected in meaningful times. I can't shake off the feeling that if a GOp cycle in March is completely missed, the campaign is over because my soldiers are starved of EXP. Inefficiencies like that which I would not have cared for on Commander are grinding me down on Legendary, largely because I don't have much play time. Perhaps that's the root problem - all this anxiety comes from lack of experience of what Legendary May is like.
Last edited by Psieye on Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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8wayz
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by 8wayz »

Hey, take a break every now and then !

I am currently playing Long War 1 (final version) on Impossible and have made a house rule to play between 2 to 5 missions per day, depending on their length. Thus I can finish a month in 3 days and still enjoy my time with the game. It has the side-effect of actually letting you reflect on how you are doing campaign-wise and to set goals for next month.

Same translates to Long War 2 - you do need to get to a good start on Legendary, but have to be realistic about it. No need to take risky, under-infiltrated missions just because you need that extra XP, corpses or loot. Better have those soldiers available, than dead or gravely wounded.

I would also stick to 2 regions for the first 4 months, as that will give you a mangeable amount of missions. Once I liberate the first, then I will start expanding fast to get to the Blacksite and acquire more missions.
Psieye
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Psieye »

8wayz wrote:be realistic about it. No need to take risky, under-infiltrated missions just because you need that extra XP, corpses or loot. Better have those soldiers available, than dead or gravely wounded.

I would also stick to 2 regions for the first 4 months, as that will give you a mangeable amount of missions. Once I liberate the first, then I will start expanding fast to get to the Blacksite and acquire more missions.
This somewhat feels counter-intuitive to me but it makes sense: it's impossible for every RNG roll to be amazing at the strategy layer. The concern is that UFOs will spike the Strength of those 2 regions too high for meaningful training missions. It feels wrong if I don't have 3 squads infiltrating something after the 1st Supply Drop.

Come to think... Legendary's mission distribution is throwing me off. In Commander, you have Lib missions from the start and counter-DE missions only spawn after the 2nd Supply Drop. In Legendary, everything overlaps after the 1st Supply Drop. GOps are still happening, counter-DE missions spawn offering intel rewards, Lib 1s are available, offering more intel rewards. That means you have 6 GOp spawns to train with before mission activity (and Vig) kicks into overdrive.
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8wayz
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by 8wayz »

As you noted, there will be plenty of missions to go by only with 2 regions contacted. In theory it is feasible to liberate your first region around the end of May, but I say 4 months to give myself some leeway just in case something goes terribly wrong with the RNG on Geoscape or Battlescape.

Taking 3 months to contact your 3rd region should leave you with playable Region Strength and vigilance. Usually the Lib 4 and Lib 5 are the biggest vigilance and strength spikes, so you should be prepared to do those within 10 days of each other (using Intel boosts).

Are you going for Laser Rush this time ?
Psieye
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Psieye »

8wayz wrote: Are you going for Laser Rush this time ?
Given my shift towards being 4-man ready, I'm beginning to question grabbing Laser before EXO. I would want PG up in time for when Troop Columns become a thing. Commander's Choice distorts the equation as I vastly prefer churning out snipers and gunners over rangers making Laser not pay off until Adv. Laser. I'm also adjusting to fat HP Advent goons who can shrug off a lowroll on a shotgun-to-face.
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gimrah
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by gimrah »

I think you probably have to expect to do some ex light GOps with 4 soldiers. I do a few even on Commander.

Hack workstation should be very viable with 4. Jailbreaks, extracts and train hacks are one notch harder. Relays, vehicle hacks/extracts and S&G are harder still with 4 IMO.

Worth considering doing 4-man without a shinobi. Logic being you probably need all 4 guys to fights, so phantom doesn't get you that far. Plus shinobi needs to run forward to attack, and activation risk is a bigger consideration with a smaller squad.

Technicals and gunners are both good on 4-man ex lights early on. Technical's consumables carry well. Gunner gives you some CC and a big gun.
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Psieye »

gimrah wrote:Worth considering doing 4-man without a shinobi. Logic being you probably need all 4 guys to fights, so phantom doesn't get you that far. Plus shinobi needs to run forward to attack, and activation risk is a bigger consideration with a smaller squad.

Technicals and gunners are both good on 4-man ex lights early on. Technical's consumables carry well. Gunner gives you some CC and a big gun.
It's a good point. The reason I value phantom is for squadsight shenanigans and grenadier mortar shots - frag over a roof or wall at a pod before they've scampered. Or after they've scattered but re-converged: if I have time I can just retreat to force them to regroup like that. Very useful to know where the frag should be launched when the grenadier doesn't have sight. Conversely, if I don't have both a grenadier and sniper in the 4-man, there's less reason to have a shinobi as they don't contribute to the fight (beyond a couple frags) without risking activations.

This also highlights whether a spec should come on 4-man hacks. Drones go down to shotguns (preferably on the grenadier) or AP snipers. Vehicle hack/retrieves might be better served with a shinobi opening and taking the objective while a sniper trolls everything away.
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Dwarfling
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Dwarfling »

Granted I haven't been reading all the briefings in full detail, so some of this might come out as wild guesses.

1. Why did you start your Legendary campaign with 3 wounded soldiers (2 severely)? I mean, if you're gonna bronzeman and savescum mistakes why take anything other than a perfect start with maybe some loot destroyed. Takes like 15min to do the mission.

2a. You're placing too much importance on detecting all the missions: yes, if both of the starting missions are <4d I'd be looking at a bronzeman restart, but after that you gotta roll with it and adjust.
2b. Then you place too much importance in getting the VIPs: yes, getting a low level soldier out of those suck, but those aren't the things that end a campaign unless you don't take measures.

3. I think you're modding the game too much and it's reducing your ability to get better at the game.
3a. Commander's Choice seems to bias you towards picking classes based on stats and not what your barracks needs, and stops you from learning to adapt your builds, squad makeups and strats towards what you get. 4 specialists? Priority for the early game should be shinobis, grenadiers and technicals.
3b. Peek from Concealment: learn to properly scout. Assume worst case scenarios and think ahead.

4. You're taking too many wounds too early and you really shouldn't (2nd campaign). You should be reviewing your tactics and squad compositions. Try to stay away from those LoS gimmicks you used on commander.
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Psieye »

Those insights are not that far off. Though there is one thing which puts everything else somewhat in context: it takes me nearly an hour to do Gatecrasher if I seek to do it perfectly. I'm simultaneously thinking too much and thinking too little. A notable issue is NCE: I'm constantly checking what tiny advantages I can wring out which gets further exacerbated by Commander's Choice. The other is LoS manipulation: it takes a lot of thought to predict what the AI will do and I'm not putting in that thought most of the time. Orthodox play (alpha strikes) doesn't think too hard about what the AI does because it doesn't give it any turns.

Now, the way to get good and beat Legendary would be to review the existing literature (youtubes) and put in a number of trial & errors to learn first hand. Lately, there is a nagging thought at the back of my mind: "what am I doing with my time? Am I having fun while not doing what RL needs me to do?" It's interfering with thinking ahead (or reviewing past performances). I suppose it's penance for being indecisive with my time. Legendary should be taken on seriously or not at all. This thrashing around is an attempt to short circuit it and as with anything worth doing in life, shortcuts don't work.
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

1. Flush (delete) your ini. files.
2. I m detecting missions like on commander can't find difference (few hours at most) right now on 9th restart. Max 9 days + min 4 days+

3. Do you use SMG/ grenade spawn ?
4. High HP should be Formidable class
5. High aim is better for OW
6. Anything less than 68-70 aim is SMG class. Actually 70+ can skip SMG
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Dwarfling »

Yeah you might be taking too long on things of little importance. My Gatecrashers go like this:

- Fan out with everyone, find the first pod, usually the officer's.
- Dash everyone towards it.
- Chase it while setting up a Beagle maneuver until they bite. Usually try to set it so that soldier getting revealed has cover towards a large part of the map. If the 2nd pod comes in yellow alert and they get a kill or a serious injury, restart.
- If you manage to kill 1st pod without activating the 2nd, or the 2nd activated and nobody got hurt, continue. Overwatch trap, flashbang from high cover, move the rest of the soldiers closer, using hunker. Frag the engineer and the gunner to red fog them. Then flank and shoot em.
- Use the same tactic against the sectoid/viper pod.

And really, if you don't have a lot of time on your hands then bronzeman and scumsave to learn the ropes. I "TTP" from time to time to learn how cones attacks are going to behave. A large part of the fun is seeing the missions go great because you deployed the correct squad and had a good plan, not pondering how the legions are gonna move around the map and if you're gonna hit some tech before force-lvl-something. If you had fun with the missions then weren't wasting time.
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Jacke »

Even in my limited play in heavily modded Legendary, I have to agree with Dwarfling and others.

1. Avoiding injuries, especially early in the campaign, almost trumps everything.

2. Build up a broad barracks with a spread of soldier types.

I use Commander's Choice but I still go for more soldier types that 2 or 3. I build my squads around a mixed Specialist, Shinobi, and Assault with Lightning Reflexes. Then I add Shooters (Rangers, Gunners, Sharpshooters) and Boomers (Technicals, Grenadiers) to make squads, usually at a minimum 5 troops and often 6. I like extra Technicals for Haven Advisors.

3. Never send less than 5 soldiers, preferably 6.

Especially with a Shinobi stealthed for most of the mission, I find 4-troop squads just to be too weak for most missions, especially considering avoiding all wounds.

4. Start working all 3 zones once you get Resistance Communications, contact the other 2 ASAP.

I'm not as skilled as Psieye in understanding the guts under the hood of LW2 and I don't know missions by their internal names but by the UI information. I find early game if you focus on just 2 or worse 1 zone, you spike Vigilance and thus zone Strength too fast. You want to make it easier in this phase of the campaign to meet Extremely Light opposition.

5. Build up the barracks as fast as possible without hurting other progress.
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by gimrah »

LoS shenanigans are satisfying but usually not decisive and usually not worth the extra turn or two to set up. There's no reward for killing RNFs, so doing missions quickly and cleanly is best.

Personally I hate activating with a grenade because it doesn't kill anything. I don't play with red fog so I focus on killing some of the things over hurting all of the things.

Unless you really enjoy it you don't have to go full joinrbs on the strat layer. Sure it helps at the margins but most Legend players probably don't bother, including xwynns.

I always take a specialist if at all possible on a hack mission: hack from range makes it much easier plus you're much more likely to get the hack reward. He'll probably carry a proper gun though.

Especially on Legend, you can't get everything you want when you want. You have to prioritise. It's amazing what you can live without, at least for a while.
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Psieye »

gimrah wrote:LoS shenanigans are satisfying but usually not decisive and usually not worth the extra turn or two to set up. There's no reward for killing RNFs, so doing missions quickly and cleanly is best.

Personally I hate activating with a grenade because it doesn't kill anything. I don't play with red fog so I focus on killing some of the things over hurting all of the things.
It's the extra HP on Legendary that makes LoS tricks no longer decisive. The main benefit of frag activations is affecting the distance (red fog) and direction (throwing arc from weird angle) of the scamper. It becomes further inconsistent at Legendary as things don't instantly die just because you flank them (even with a sniper). Certainly it takes extra time to set up.
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

How do you kill Advent with ballistic ?
1. It always ends up with grenade.
2. Tossing grenade with +3 movement weapon can do the job (SMG).
3. Tossing grenade with standard weapon - You are out of range ALWAYS
4. Even one HP reduction matters because Advent is in cover and you can't hit it.
5. Flanks - Usually with normal setup I m the ONE and ONLY ONE flanked. I can't move enough and I must use Flash/smoke (double item )
6. Flanks with shotgun - good luck. Shotgun have movement penalty and you have to sacrifice all your equipment
7. Flanks with SMG - crap but it works and you can carry extra items
9. Use Grenadier - it died using shotgun :lol: :lol: and you have few of them anyway and there is no enough grenades in squad
10. One Advent = one and half grenade. +70 aim can have class and perks rest are SMG grenadiers until they hit 70+ aim

This is how I play now and I play a lot. Safe playing = carpet bombing until you can afford hit (Formidable class).
3 HP are dead if you play otherwise. One hit and you risk whole squad. 3 HP is redshirt.
Negative dodge is also - redshirt (defense will not save them from crit)
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Dwarfling »

Yeah that's pretty much what my early game looks like. The only soldiers who don't carry SMGs during early game are Gunners and Sharpshooters cuz they can't carry anything else, Assaults because they can R&G with their shotguns, OW Specs, and Rangers if they're around or over 75aim. I carry 2 flashbangs per squad tops: 1 on different soldier to avoid one getting MC'd. Rest is frags, usually two, but 1 on assaults and rangers who can use the mobility. Shinobi can take a medikit, it's not necessary early but you never know.

Looks like this before Nanoscale becomes the norm:

Assault: Shotgun, Plating, Frag, Empty. Replace frag with flashbang if under 2 flashbangs total.
Grenadier: SMG, Plating, Frag, Frag, Flashbang. Replace plating with frag when over 5hp unless defense is negative.
Gunner: LMG, Plating, Frag, Frag. Replace frag with empty if mobility is under 15.
Ranger: SMG, Plating, Frag, Frag. Replace SMG with AR if aim over 75.
Sharpshooter: Sniper Rifle, Plating, Frag, Pistol. Replace Pistol with Empty if Snap Shot or other item if DFA on untimed map.
Shinobi: SMG, Plating, Flashbang, Medikit. Replace flashbang with frag if over 2 flashbangs total.
Specialist: SMG, Plating, Frag, Flashbang. Replace SMG with AR with Sentinel. Replace flashbang with frag if over 2 flashbangs total.
Technical: SMG, Plating, Frag, Flashbang.
Rookie: SMG, Plating, Frag, Frag. Replace Plating with Flashbang if over 4hp. "Al·lahu-àkbar".
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

You are rookie killer ?

Just got Flawless Gatecrasher. Advent missed twice and my future sniper hit for 20 on Sectoid for 4 dmg (not expected that).
Only thing that helped me is Advent did not had Line of sight from turn one. Tactical withdraw and Ambush on Sectoid on non timed mission.
I had used only one grenade and one flashbang .
Playtime: - few turns
-4-6 turns to took out all of the Advent
-moving in low cover cost me more than hour

Crashed PC by Alt Tabing
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by gimrah »

So lots of conflicting advice... I guess that means there is no one optimal approach - sign of a good game!

This thread made me finally start my own Legend campaign. First one failed on 1st GOp. A 4-man jailbreak. Was going fine until last pod - viper activated from alert and straight up murdered my shinobi with a crit and assault panics. So yikes: vipers in March and crits from alert.

Second campaign going rather better with just 2 minor injuries from gatecrasher and first 2 GOps.

I am reminded of another thing I am big a believer in: get most rookies promoted from missions, except extreme stat rookies like 13 movement / 75 aim which will excel in one class and suck at others. That gets you a broader and more resilient roster sooner. But having been allocated a class you should then choose build based on stats - I firmly believe there are multiple viable builds for each class.
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Re: Discussion of current Legendary campaign

Post by Psieye »

gimrah wrote: I am reminded of another thing I am big a believer in: get most rookies promoted from missions, except extreme stat rookies like 13 movement / 75 aim which will excel in one class and suck at others. That gets you a broader and more resilient roster sooner. But having been allocated a class you should then choose build based on stats - I firmly believe there are multiple viable builds for each class.
This I agree with, on the caveat that you should be prepared for some soldiers to "retire" as semi-permanent haven advisors once the earlygame is over. That's one thing I didn't want to let go of: the desire to make EVERY soldier an endgame juggernaut if they survived.
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