Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

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gimrah
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Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by gimrah »

First serious Legend ironman attempt ended in September. Code black on regular GOp. Triple activation on alien turn. First time encountering majority M3s + 1st andromedon. Just did not have the firepower: one coil weapon per squad and the rest mag (laser on non-shooty classes).

I could carry on but I'm pretty sure it would death spiral from here, because the root cause is being too behind on tech, having been too short on resources in early/mid game to tech up in a timely manner. And M3 arrival just doesn't tolerate that. And the code black included both me and Aloysius, so... you know.

Not entirely sure what went wrong on the strat layer. I was not able to liberate until July (and then again in August). I just didn't get the missions until then. One single solitary supply raid (done as 4-man) and no troop columns (regions were mostly <4 strength). RNG gave me very few engineers, which affected digging speed and forced me to spend resources on a workshop. Also lack of corpses meant very late PG, so no alloy plating and no incendiaries until August. I actually had loads of scientists, but did several basic research as I just didn't have the resources to do the next big tech (and had to sell all the datapads). I didn't even attempt psi or Sparks.

ADVICE REQUESTED: How do people lib so early? Do you put scientists as haven advisers to catch lib 2? Would you do that even at strength 3 when intel raids are possible? How much risk would you take for Lib 2/3? Would you be prepared for a material risk of A-team deaths (e.g. it's Light / Light-Moderate, or lower but with a small team), in order to get through them when they first show? Would you consider doing a 'get attention' to draw strength form a lib region and deliberately boost strength in another region to trigger supply raid / troop columns (I usually consider those aren't worth it)?

I think on research order, I would still do a basic research but I'd time it for when I'm short on resources. If I have resources I'd do lasers first.

Class and build findings:

Assaults. I built loads and mostly right-side builds. Having lots is good because they get injured so often. However they are of limited use if they can't oneshot a target. And a laser shotgun doesn't reliably oneshot an M2 on Legend. So they need up to date weapons, which makes them expensive to equip and/or creates periods of obsolescence while you tech. Arc pulser build is quite nice on HQs for non-consumable CC on beserkers, the general and any high threat targets your sharps can't see. Less useful elsewhere: really a late game carry soldier as chain lightning is godlike.

Shinobis. I keep trying the odd experimental shooty build but it's too much of a carry. Bladenobis are just better. I used to make one stealthy/shooty shinobi for network towers and HQs: ghostwalker+covert let's you sneak under a turret over the door, and stops you getting caught/trapped while scouting in a long HQ mission. However it's not really worth it: oscar mike + command does the trick on a network tower if you can't sneak in, and building solely around HQs is probably not worth it (if they get wounded on the network tower they won't be available anyway). So bladenobi all day in future, with the only debate between combatives and shadowstep. Most of my officers were shinobis and they work well.

Rangers. Very solid throughout. I go WF->LO->CuP->Fort->Imp->RF->KZ. Very nice firebase soldier which benefits from using a basic tech weapon, so is always up to date. The anchor of my squads a lot of the time. Centre column is fun and quite good but I only build if a soldier with the right stats chooses to be a ranger.

Gunners. Bit of a late game carry. Tend to be either too slow or too low aim to be strong on many GOp types. But very strong on untimed missions, when non-consumable AoE CC is great (also cover destruction). I go suppression build or tanky/shooter. Both take CM and demolition. I ended up making only two this campaign and one died, so...

Sharpshooters. Did not have much impact on this campaign. DfA is clearly great on untimed missions but I just didn't do that many of those. Snapshot is great but requires soldiers of the right stats, so I only had one. And I couldn't afford mobility suits this campaign, which are what made them the standout soldiers in my last campaign.

Technicals. Love them. Build loads and went all rockets all day. Either all left side or taking shredder and RF if high aim. This was a mistake in retrospect. Rocket tech really need exo and T2 gauntlets to shine. Both are expensive. Next time I would build a few hybrids, especially on any that have quick study.

Grenadiers. Usually I love them but they did not shine this campaign. I have 3 builds: RD/Damage/Smoke, RD/Form/Sting, and RD/Shooty/Smoke. I keep trying to make shooty grenadiers work and they just don't. Even with quick study, they spend so much time training as officers, pistoleers or general AWC that they don't contribute enough. My other builds have been tremendous in my Commander campaigns but in this one they really suffered when I couldn't access incendiaries. My gatecrasher grenadier was my first SSGT and then didn't make it to TSGT until Sept. I think next time I might try some sapper grenadiers since they can do their job consistently throughout, and I do like my shooty rangers.

Specialists. Went OW. Trojan on high hack. Medical protocol on low hack. Field surgeon on all. As I said elsewhere, I find them underwhelming. A couple of very nice hacks but in general I wouldn't bring one unless it's a hack mission. I found the OW build doesn't do much before at least SSGT and probably TSGT (at which point it does shine). And I find OW doesn't kill much on legend before CuP, so they don't rank up fast. I am tempted to revert to utility/officer builds. Maybe favouring them for exo suits so they have some damage. And maybe pistol perks. And then I can take airdrop to support my sapper grenadiers to support my rangers.

Psi/Spark. Not built this campaign as I didn't consider them worth the resources.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

I put scientist for lib 1 & 2 (lib 3 will respawn with max detection if you skip it) and I m always expanding as much I can.
This allows me to skip missions when vigilance/strength get high.
I can't detect high profile missions with rebels and I don't have enough them (rebels) to detect normal missions.Then I end up in 4 days missions loop. This can deplete your barracks so fast that I m forced to use scientist whole time. I know mission spawn times -so this is not that big problem but empty barracks is a problem.

To be ahead I m rescuing every soldier/scientist I can . Big barracks is - everything
My biggest problem is intel - early. Two regions is just not enough to maintain strength/vigilance .
Supply raid is scientist job and I will restart whole game if I don't detect them.
Liberating region is screw whole map moment for few supply. If your global vigilance (threat) is high this is will increase even more map strength when I m on low everything.
I m planning to delay liberation until I have bigger barracks.

Saving intel by using Scientist on detection is my current strategy and it cost lots of supply (black market) but for now it saves lives and gives more missions.
I have tendency to send Shinobi , Phantom sniper and Specialist on low timer hack missions. After laser I might even fight with other classes but early - fighting always screw me .

Classes - I really need plenty of stealth Shinobis to avoid fighting, Then I need Phantom snipers to fill the scouting gap .
With big barrack you can afford respec and any other non scouting class is not important - they are grenadiers until laser .
Big barracks will win if you can save enough intel to expand. Boosting mission is a expensive way to slow down your expansion.
Few boost one region less.
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gimrah
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by gimrah »

Thanks SonnyWiFiHr.

In practice does that mean that you park a scientist in any haven you are serious about running missions in?

Do you wait until 2nd month, which I understand is the earliest Lib1 can spawn on Legend?

I do generally expand when I can. Certainly at the start I do resistance comms first and get my 2nd and 3rd regions up asap.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Liberation 1 will spawn after 3 weeks

You will start with 5 rebels + faceless.
5 rebels will give you 8-3 days mission. This can be fine if both missions roll early detection.
If they don't - one 3 days mission can screw you . You can't buy scientist yet . My advice is - If you detect bad timers - load your earlier save game.
Once you have sci you can use him if you want. But Lib 1 & 2 have increased difficulty so sci here is nice. Lib 3 also if you don't want to skip and wait for better timers
Even if you have big haven - extra day / soldier is nice on difficult mission

Second region is doable from start. Benefit ? You will not have to play STR 5 mission (Advent is raining from sky) in first region and spend all intel on it. When ? This is my first move if my barrack is full or near full.
You can skip missions if your detection is bad in both regions and go for easier missions

Third region - if you don't have plenty of wounds or death and enough intel. Place where your rookies can survive.
Why ? 3 regions generate 3x rookies and you need to have them before they insta die on mission.

4th and rest same as 3rd. If you wan't bigger barracks you will expand fast as intel allow you.
Retaliations ? You will have bigger barracks.

All this above works if contacted region strength is not worse than previous region. I pick small havens, but this is not always true.
Save game before contact and check if that 6 haven region don't have 3-4 strength.
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gimrah
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by gimrah »

Thanks. I like to play it fairly ironman especially on strategic layer. Not least because the campaign won't then play out the same each time. And I hate stealth missions because usually everyone dies when I try them. But I take your point. I think I might use scientists more in havens at strategic moments at least.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

It is usually mess but switching Avenger from region to region should net you better mission timers and more missions.

1st mission is easier to detect because it is mission with better dice roll.
2nd mission (just detected later) is more like small team mission

You have barracks of 21+ and some missions can fall off.
Do that until Lib 1 (3 weeks) . If you have vigilance displayed stop doing missions in one region after it hits 6 or keep vigilance at 6 by doing one mission per week. If you manage to do that in one region it will produce more jailbreaks, VIPs (sci,eng,soldier) all good stuff.
Key is to have low vigilance region to farm at it.
I usually hit high vigilance in starting region quite rapidly screwing good missions so I must expand to compensate.
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by Dwarfling »

gimrah wrote:(regions were mostly <4 strength)... I just didn't have the resources...
It's hard to especulate what made your campaign fail but from this I can gather that you might have not done enough missions because most of my regions explode in strenght past... May? June? Except the regions I leave alone on purpose (which honestly tends to be a single one). Did you take too many wounds to field 3-4 teams? Or were the timers too short for 5-man? Liberation doesn't have a lot to do with it, I've done late July 1st lib too and the campaign goes fine in terms of equipment.
gimrah
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by gimrah »

I'm not sure why strength stayed low. I usually had 3 teams in the field and sometimes 4. I got to 3 regions quickly and stayed there for a while as I didn't get any contacts as Intel packages.

I ended up doing 1st Lib3 as Light with 6 soldiers and going for the capture as I needed the contact. Was tough because VIP was on upper floor of a building and evac was mikes away and I got overwhelmed by RNFs. Lost a soldier on the way out but worth.

I didn't have soldiers as havens advisers as I needed all my soldiers. May have been a mistake.

I tried to do the first UFO detection mission but it kind of lied. I thought it was the type you didn't have to get the hacker out but turned out I did. So I savescummed to before the mission and aborted.

3 havens gives you quite a choice of missions so I guess vigilance didn't rise that fast.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

I will hit vigilance 5 after 3 missions.
Started with Vigilance 2.
Detected faceless in first few hours - I hate that
Two missions will bring it to 5 - not sure that I have enough time for vigilance to decay.
There is huge possibility that I will skip S&G if vigilance do not drop. Eventually Lib 1 will screw this region but two extra missions are two extra missions
I m going straight forward to second region to train squads and build haven
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gimrah
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by gimrah »

I think my own avatar might be a curse.

Doesn't show for 3 campaigns. 1st appearance in late mid game last campaign - code black.

Appears in starting roster this campaign. Very early GOp has 4 injuries and a rookie death. And the intel package is a resistamce MEC.
Psieye
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by Psieye »

gimrah wrote: no troop columns (regions were mostly <4 strength)
gimrah wrote:I'm not sure why strength stayed low. I usually had 3 teams in the field and sometimes 4. I got to 3 regions quickly and stayed there for a while as I didn't get any contacts as Intel packages.

3 havens gives you quite a choice of missions so I guess vigilance didn't rise that fast.
This is weird to happen naturally. 3 regions, 3~4 active teams is borderline for keeping vigilance stale by carefully doing 1 mission in each region every 8~14 days (i.e. get 1 Vig decay between each win). RNG should be distributing the "doable detected missions" unevenly across those regions. Then again, the RNG that spawns missions might have naturally cancelled out the RNG that detects missions in your campaign.

I still don't know how much leeway you have in Legendary to let missions go. But if I felt I was a bit late to get a good Lib 2 detection, then yes I'd risk an intel raid hitting a scientist advisor for the few days I'd assign one. Though that would mean an effective Str 3~4+3 Lib 2 mission which I should expect some attrition on - be it in intel cost or soldier downtime. A risky strategic decision would have been to deliberately leave one of those 3 regions to stay on recruit for a while: that would decay its Vig and your other regions would have gotten very hot quickly, thus leeching Str away. Then this cold region could be tapped for just the Lib missions. I wouldn't do a Propaganda mission to spike Vig as you naturally want this process to take time (for Vig to decay in the cold region).
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
2nd
3rd
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Legend campaign failure - report and how to improve

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Liberation 3 in 3rd region (if low Strength) is something on my mind.
If I can make 2nd region very hot and put 1st region on cold (recruit).
Region 2 and 3 should not have border (line?)
1 st region can try to reinforce both (in theory) . UFO can be avoided if I just doing Lib chain in 3rd region .

How game plays it is better to try that in 4th region because I m always so thin on barracks when I jump on 3rd region .
30 HP general and his goons vs my bad equipment will kill few of my best soldiers anyway.
Not planning to lose anyone if I can get better equipment and full 10 man squad . Every Technical I have will be on that
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