Mayhem mechanics?

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Redshirt4life
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Mayhem mechanics?

Post by Redshirt4life »

Does anyone know how Mayhem's +25% damage is applied?
Is it applied to the final damage number?
How does it interact with crits?

I want to run my gunners as reactive crit gunners with Combatives, CuP, Mayhem, and Kill Zone using Talon rounds, hair triggers, and Laser sights. If the 25% bonus applies to crits it'd be, well, it'd be pretty insane. I noticed that Robotic enemies will reposition with flush, even though fire doesn't hurt them and I think this may be a strong answer to tier 3 opponents, depending how the Mayhem damage is equated.
gimrah
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by gimrah »

Can't answer your actual question I'm afraid.

I can say that I quite like suppression gunners. Another way to think about mayhem is that it means you'll kill most things witbout critting if they move, which can free you up to take danger zone at TSGT instead of CuP.

I tend to see what they get in the AWC. If they get other OW perks like guardian or EV, then I probably take CuP and maybe KZ if I'm really min/maxing. Otherwise danger zone into rapid fire.

Tbh these soldiers are good at controlling things (do use a combat awareness PCS) but killing big robots you want centre mass, shredder, rapid fire, traverse fire.
Psieye
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by Psieye »

Redshirt4life wrote:I noticed that Robotic enemies will reposition with flush, even though fire doesn't hurt them
Note that if they decide to move 1 tile, kill zone or any other reaction fire won't trigger. Relying on forced retreats to trigger suppression must consider if the enemy will be happy with moving exactly 1 tile. You also need to consider if they can break LoS by moving 1 tile in a bad direction.

Kill Zone reaction gunner is great, but they'll want more support than you're thinking. This is an ideal use case:
- Have a mid-tier officer around with Lead by Example and Fire Discipline.
- Squadsight pull a large pod such that they HAVE to cluster around a tiny cluster of cover.
- Rocket that cover. Alternatively, flank the entire pod (and not with a concealed unit).
- Command the gunner to move and Kill Zone the whole pod. If he didn't get off 7~8 shots, it wasn't ideal.
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Redshirt4life
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by Redshirt4life »

Thanks for the input I appreciate it. I suppose I'll find out how Mayhem is calculated over time.

I'm not expecting big things from kill zone, I just think its the best option at that rank. Rapid fire without a scope or shredder isn't going to be as strong. There are, however, a decent number of situations where I know a pod will activate from a specific direction. I heard it can be tricky to set up the ideal situations for it though. I'll see how it works out.

I think have a decent shredding from other places. One squad has a ranger with shredder, deadshot, and lethal from the AWC. The others use technicals with smgs and the shredder perk. My thinking is that mayhem's +25% damage would allow the gunner to smash Mecs that have already been shredded, since shredder doesn't ignore the armor its shredding, and Mecs just love ignoring suppression

All in all I think they will play really nice with flame technicals. Area suppression + roust, rocket + killzone, flame + killzone ambush. Should be fun.
Redshirt4life
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by Redshirt4life »

Killzone only requires 1 ap to use. I was under the impression that it required 2. This makes the skill a hell of a lot more useful.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Try Cyclic fire or chain shot if it have good aim. Formidable / shredder is must pick .
Lock down is for low aim ones .
Combatives for really screwed ones just to survive .

If you are "saving" gunner from bad stats right tree is for them. Otherwise just shoot , suppress and area shred. Shredder is the best.
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gimrah
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by gimrah »

I don't think you should wave rapid fire aside lightly. Cannons hit hard, especially at plasma. And there is always shredder ammo. Those end game enemies take a lot of wearing down to kill.

KZ is very situational IMO. Great for breaking concealment but otherwise relies on pods going exactly where you want them. Even on untimed missions that doesn't work that well because of the cooldown.

Hence I take it if he got other OW perks that push me towards CuP.

I quite like KZ on rangers. I just take CuP and KZ from the OW side but it gives them an extra trick they don't otherwise have, which isn't the case for rupture (if you took RF) or combat fitness.
Redshirt4life
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by Redshirt4life »

Whats going on is that our gunner and ranger specs are inversed. I'm not a fan of active gunners, nor reactive rangers. I still have a powerful rapid fire soldier burning down big targets, but, its not the gunner.
Psieye
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by Psieye »

There is value in removing the rest of a pod while the Big Scary is stunned. It makes things much more predictable with who the OW shots will go off on. Pods scamper when first activated, but if that's a whole turn before they see the squad, they'll converge again. Hence the value of sniper activations or perhaps an over-the-wall (read: unseen) grenadier mortar activation. Or even a shadowstep shinobi (that lost stealth) who hunkered one turn then dashed back the next.

Kill Zone is situational, so you have to work to make those situations happen often. Consider a lategame scenario: big pod with one Fat Tank and some glass cannons. Assault moves close, stuns the Fat Tank (or the spec does it if Mec). Kill Zone (with assistance) wipes the glass cannons. Next turn, Assault moves to CE range. A GSGT Assault can shoot the Fat Tank 4 times in 1 turn this way: move -> shoot -> CE shoot -> get Threat Assessment -> CCS shot -> CF OW shot.

GSGT Rangers with Rapid Reaction benefit even more from TA. I don't believe in "active" or "reactionary" rangers - if they aren't shooting 5 times in a lategame turn, they're not doing their job.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

I was on right side quit a lot (crap stats) and still using them (no choice).
They can suppress and sometimes do something but I avoid them on harder missions.
Rapid fire is Gunner thing. Big cannon firing twice.
But skipping Formidable just tends to kill them .
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Redshirt4life
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by Redshirt4life »

I still can't figure out how Mayhem is calculated on a crit. I've read elsewhere that it does increase crit damage though. I'm having a problem where most Advent refuse to run the suppression, which is fine, but it makes it hard to tell how effective the damage boost is. I'm area suppressing multiple tier 3 Mecs and they just stand motionless taking poor shots in the suppression. I keep expecting them to run it, but they seem to think this is LW1.

I hear you both on the rangers and gunners. PSI, i like your idea on rangers. I run full crit rangers strictly harking back to my LW1 crit rangers. Sort of a nostalgic nod to my favorite soldiers. Fortunately they received the nessesary AWC perks to pull it off. One has deadshot, shredder, and lethal. Whoo man is he fun.

Gunners though...
Gunners have a close range penalty, poor aim progression, and no skills like locked-on to mitigate the -15 aim penalty. I'd rather have kill zone over whiff fire. At least the former activates combat awareness with multi-shot potential. See, I had some frustrating situations. Once, for example, my gunner couldn't even hit an exposed muton elite. It forever turned me off to them ever running rapid fire again.;

So what I do with the big scary...
Well, I have all these psi operatives I invested into. A-team's psi has bastion, detonate, void rift, and domination. I run a battle ball with the spark and the psi op. Many scary enemies will happily waste their turn throwing AOE at them, and I've learned to abuse the crap out of that. Its working out alright and I'm enjoying it so far.
gimrah
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by gimrah »

Pure crit rangers don't do it for me any more because BEO is so underwhelming in LW2. Also I find I use my rangers are often shooting at targets in cover. Kubikiri in AWC would change my mind but otherwise I go for a bit more flexibility. I go WF->LO->CuP->Fort->Imp->RF->KZ. I find it makes a good versatile soldier who is decent on OW ambushes and also at shooting stuff through cover. Fortify lets him keep up damage output if forced to be in weak cover (they often have poor defence stat too). Implacable helps address the mobility issue a bit (and to use the sawn-off potentially). Walk fire does fall off in utility once you have rapid fire but it's just so useful up to that point it's still a must for me.

Gunner aim is an issue. Late game a shred/shooty gunner is for anti-MEC really. Traverse fire + rapid fire with a cannon is huge damage output. Also very late game the plasma cannon's bonus is extra base damage, so there is a big difference between ranger and gunner damage potential at that point. For gatekeepers and even exposed muton elites, it's a volume of fire game to hope you land some of your shots. If the gunner has poor base aim it's worth considering grazing fire at LCPL so at least you should get your shred. You can also make a material difference to aim with AWC perks and PCS of course.
Psieye
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by Psieye »

I'm too used to 100 Aim Lead by Example sniper officers. Theorycraft time!

For lategame, shitty aim on a gunner is about 70, so the officer would pull everyone up to about 85 or better. T2 holo brings that up to 100. Scope then compensates for small enemy Def. Larger enemy Def would need AWC perks or... Flush to remove some Def. Yeah no, who's going to bring a Gunner just to put some Flush down on a target? Even after factoring in "I jump through hoops to manipulate conditions to guarantee the target stays in sight". Looks like Focus Fire will have to do.
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gimrah
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by gimrah »

Hopefully you have a bit more than 70 aim on a gunner by late game! They get +18 through progression.

I am trying a holobot officer this campaign. I tried to be clever taking rookies to missions and failed, hence I ended up with low aim sniper but with nice movement and defence. So I thought I'd give holobot officer another go. But instead of stealth, going CM and HI and training pistol perks. Leads big missions like HQs and is ok on GOps as he's quite versatile. Only officer to take focus fire, given big mission specialty and late game carry (focus fire also synergises with pistol skills). Will probably take lead by example, even though that won't do much until I can find him a good perception PCS.

The major downside is the training time. Going down two training paths is a lot for a soldier without quick study.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

I need Two GTS and two AWC.
With two GTS - I can min maxing classes
With two AWC I can make something of this classes .
It takes to much time to make basic soldier.
Did anyone tried that ?
Resistance comm is just waste of space when you trying to build barracks.
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Unfawkable
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Re: Mayhem mechanics?

Post by Unfawkable »

Psieye wrote:
Kill Zone reaction gunner is great, but they'll want more support than you're thinking. This is an ideal use case:
- Have a mid-tier officer around with Lead by Example and Fire Discipline.
- Squadsight pull a large pod such that they HAVE to cluster around a tiny cluster of cover.
- Rocket that cover. Alternatively, flank the entire pod (and not with a concealed unit).
- Command the gunner to move and Kill Zone the whole pod. If he didn't get off 7~8 shots, it wasn't ideal.
I have this guy posted in another thread who regularly massacres 8 people like that:
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