How good is "Basic Research" upgrade?

[trihero]

I'm wondering if someone can look at the code and tell us explicitly what "further research accumulates at a faster rate" means.

What I'm really wondering if it's worth it to research it once or twice early in the game - will the time spent up front here reduce the overall time to hit all the end research projects significantly? If so, what is the optimal number of times to research this option?

I have a feeling it's just a filler/safety net in case you just can't rescue scientists for the life of you but I would love to know the math/specifics.

[JLtheking]

From XComLW_Overhaul.ini

Code: Select all

; Repeatedable permanent improvement projects; the increased cost for repeating is in DGD.ini
+TechTable=(TechTemplateName="BasicResearchProject",            ProvingGround=false,    ResearchPointCost = 5200, ModPointsToCompleteOnly=true)
+TechTable=(TechTemplateName="BasicEngineeringProject",         ProvingGround=false,    ResearchPointCost = 5200, ModPointsToCompleteOnly=true)

From XComGameData.ini

Code: Select all

BASIC_RESEARCH_SCIENCE_BONUS = 5
BASIC_RESEARCH_ENGINEERING_BONUS = 5
REPEAT_BASIC_RESEARCH_INCREASE = 2800
REPEAT_BASIC_ENGINEERING_INCREASE = 2800

I am going to hazard a guess that this means after completing the research project, you get effectively one extra engineer/scientist respectively. The duration needed to conduct the same research again also increases by 2800.

So yep. Not very good.

[GavinRuneblade]

It appears to be a tool for recovery after being screwed by rng-eebus. Some techs and proving ground projects need a bunch of personnel, if you don't get them you stall, this gives you a way forward.

[JLtheking]

Yep. I must be getting a run of good luck. I got 3 rescue an engineer missions in the first month

At great cost to my Shinobis though

[JLtheking]

Any idea if building labs/workshops increases the scientist/engineer count as well?

[Devon_v]

If you're short personnel you can run the research to reduce the requirements for all projects by one.

Need a 2 scientist tech, but you only have one? Do some basic research.

[trihero]

I mean if it gives you one effective scientist, do you think it could be worth doing it once early game because think about it, the game lasts perhaps up to 9+ months, one scientist early in the game could be worth a lot of science over that period of time. That's the kind of question I'm after. I know the research time goes way up so I couldn't see you doing it more than 1-2 times early game, but I wonder what the optimal number is, even if it's 0 it would be nice to know. And think about it scientists are worth about 100 supplies, doing basic research once could be worth it! What do you guys think?

I'm perfectly aware it reduces the required number of scientists and that's probably its main intended effect to help you if you get screwed over by rng not having quite ennough scientists to do a critical project, but I'm asking about the research times that part makes me curious. That's too hard to test in game beacuse it means you'd have to try 3-4 different games, each one researching different numbers of basic research off the bat then see what happens 9 months down the line with who's ahead, which is confounded by so many other possible factors like people not having the same number of scientists or doing the same number of researches, etc.

And I doubt that the engineering part reduces proving grounds projects times; that seems to be only affected by how many engineers you staff in the proving grounds (after rescuing lots of engineers I never see the times go down, only when I staff them directly).

[GavinRuneblade]

It doesn't give you one effective scientist. It reduces the number of scientists required by research projects by one.

So if a project needs 9 days and 2 scientists it afterward needs 9 days and 1 scientist.

If instead you recruited a scientist instead, then the days required would drop to 6.

[trihero]

It doesn't give you one effective scientist. It reduces the number of scientists required by research projects by one.

So if a project needs 9 days and 2 scientists it afterward needs 9 days and 1 scientist.

If instead you recruited a scientist instead, then the days required would drop to 6.

Ah ok, so when the description says "research will accumulate faster" it's misleading? So it's just garbage unless you really need that one threshold scientist to begin a research.

[mattprice516]

IIRC it's essentially just an option to prevent a campaign from completely being screwed over by losing an early Scientist rescue or something - a suboptimal tradeoff of resources basically (like selling stuff in Catan).

[siath70]

It reduces time to research too. Was watching a stream and it dropped research by 2 days on plasma when JoINrbs tested it out to see what it did.

[trihero]

It reduces time to research too. Was watching a stream and it dropped research by 2 days on plasma when JoINrbs tested it out to see what it did.

Now I"m really confused; this is exactly what I want to know. Soeone here said it doesn't, and someone here said it does. Who's right? How much does it reduce research time by? Is it worth doing once or twice in the early game considering how long the game is?

[siath70]

I would say try it out, make a save of your game and speed through it and see what effect it has. As I said I seen it in action and it reduced plasma tech by 2 days.

Watch his stream here https://www.twitch.tv/joinrbs/v/117232978 11:17:00 is the mark you're looking for where he checks to see if basic research does anything.

[GavinRuneblade]

It reduces time to research too. Was watching a stream and it dropped research by 2 days on plasma when JoINrbs tested it out to see what it did.

Now I"m really confused; this is exactly what I want to know. Soeone here said it doesn't, and someone here said it does. Who's right? How much does it reduce research time by? Is it worth doing once or twice in the early game considering how long the game is?

When I tested, all it did was remove the scientist required, days stayed the same. However it is entirely possible a bug or a mod conflict occurred. I am not sure what the intended behavior is just what happened for me.

[trihero]

When I tested, all it did was remove the scientist required, days stayed the same. However it is entirely possible a bug or a mod conflict occurred. I am not sure what the intended behavior is just what happened for me.

Looking at days doesn't necessarily help because one scientist doesn't always reduce the days displayed if the tech is a long one. I'm guessing the tech does give the equivalent of one scientist for speed of research (in addition to lowering the scientist requirement of any tech), and based on this assumption, I believe it's good to do this research twice very early in the game (well first do comms so you can spread your resistance seed out). It is not as if there is critical research early on anyway since you are merrily supply/corpse starved even if you could research something else, and the game is so long that having the equivalent of 2 scientist boosts for most of the game has to be somewhat impactful, and at the very least makes up for the scientist you have to station on your AWC.

Anything past twice might not be a good idea since every time you do it the research time goes way up.

[JLtheking]

AP ammo and tracer rounds are gated behind the first two autopsys IIRC and they are really useful and only cost 5 supplies a pop. That's one for every trooper corpse or 2 per sectoid.

Building AWC early is also beneficial to help injuries from dominoing and to start training those extra perks.

Also, doing the basic research a second time round is going to increase its time cost by over half. So the first one is 22 days and the second one longer than that. That sounds like you're gonna be way behind on tech for +2 scientists to be worth it?

Of course our priorities and need for equipment may vary. Let us know how your method works out

[trihero]

AP ammo and tracer rounds are gated behind the first two autopsys IIRC and they are really useful and only cost 5 supplies a pop. That's one for every trooper corpse or 2 per sectoid.

Building AWC early is also beneficial to help injuries from dominoing and to start training those extra perks.

Of course our priorities and need for equipment may vary. Let us know how your method works out

It's not just 5 supplies, it's also 1 elerium per and you aren't making any elerium early on without rendering things like cores. I don't find I have extra cash early on between GTS, upgrade, AWC, buying out recruits, losing money to upkeep.

Building AWC is recommended, I would always do that after GTS upgrade. I never said don't build it, I just said if you do basic research, it helps to make up for research time you lose by putting a scientist on the AWC. I.e. of course you should put a scientist on AWC as soon as possible, but remember he doesn't help with research while doing so.

I'm holding off on playing any more LW2 until 1.1 hits, I've spent too much time on it recently and I think there are just a huge number of changes that I want to try out and explore in the new patch.

[JLtheking]

Edited my post but you replied before I could submit

First research is 22 days and second one would be another 5600 +2800 points to complete! That sounds terrible

[JLtheking]

Besides, a good first supply raid will give you enough elerium to build a couple of ammo items, and completing Gatecrasher gives you 3. That's good enough for me.

[trihero]

So you're saying maybe just research it once early game? I don't know what the magic break point is, maybe it's 2, maybe it's 1 early on. I doubt it's zero. There's leeway in the early game where you don't need to rush lasers or whatever else, might as well use that time to invest in the long run.

[LordYanaek]

And, in the early game you don't have many research options either, especially if you don't get some additional alloy quickly after gatecrasher. I've done the "basic research" simply because i had no other options.

[brunodema]

I do basic research whenever I get locked in research. Typically this happens when I'm only getting VIP rescues with no time to infiltrate, making the missions not worth my time nor risk, and when I definitely don't have anything better to research.search.

[JLtheking]

Yep, I believe that's exactly it's intended purpose, as an option of last resort since part of the tech tree is designed to be gated.

As to whether it is optimal to do it even if you have options though, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[trihero]

Yep, I believe that's exactly it's intended purpose, as an option of last resort since part of the tech tree is designed to be gated.

As to whether it is optimal to do it even if you have options though, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Of course I believe that's its intended purpose, but the fact that is increases research speed is the whole question/twist about it. I want to make it clear I already understood this before I posted and I clearly didn't ask about the engineering research for instance because that doens't increase proving grounds speed at all.

It's an investment - it's like getting 1 extra scientist and that is going to pay off if you do it early enough considering how long the game is, and like many others have pointed out, early game you don't have that many options. I don't know why you're not super excited about that knid of boost for essentially the whole game, at essentially zero opportunity cost (maybe you can build 2-3 ammos about 2 weeks earlier...if you use ammo at all to begin with... if you tunnel but I could easily be using the supplies in a different manner like buying recruits).

I don't recommend like, doing it in month 6 if it takes 30 days to research and you have coils to work on. That's just silly. But immediately after resistance comms when you don't have anything you NEED to rush to and have no supplies/cores/elerium/alloy anyways to take advantage of anything you do tech to, why not?

Again the magic number might be 1, or it might be 2, but I doubt it's zero.

[LordYanaek]

It's an investment - it's like getting 1 extra scientist and that is going to pay off if you do it early enough considering how long the game is...

And the effect is pretty significant. When i started it near the end of month 1 after doing all the basic stuff (resistance comm, alien biotech and modular weapons plus an early datapad decription) it was 22 days long, as was basic engineering. When i finished it, still with 0 scientists, basic engineering was down to 15 days, slightly better than 1/3 reduction in time. With such a reduction it would pay off quite fast.

Of course, there is probably some diminishing return if you have lots of scientists (i'm not sure exactly how the maths work for this) but if you don't have many scientists early, it's probably worth researching it.