How good is "Basic Research" upgrade?

[JLtheking]

Alright, since we're talking about optimisation I'm going to have to delve into the .ini files to pull out concrete figures.

Tygan is worth 2 scientists. Each scientist provides 120 points of research a day.

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ResistanceCommunications 1250
ModularWeapons 760
AlienBiotech 1300 
HybridMaterials 2000
LaserWeapons 4000
AdvancedLasers 4000

*BasicResearchProject 5200

Let's take finishing up Advanced Lasers as the endpoint to our experiment. This requires a total of 13310 research points.

Assuming we are super unlucky and gain zero scientists throughout the entire experiment, research totals out to 13310/240=55.5 days if we completely ignore Basic Research as per conventional wisdom. I rank these techs at what order I usually research them.

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RC at 5.2 days.
MW at 8.4 (suppressors!!)
AB 13.8 (AP! AWC!)
HM 22.1 (Tracer! Nanoscale Vest!)
LW 38.8 (first and free Laser Rifle)
and finally finish Advanced lasers at day 55.5 of campaign.

If we research Basic Research at the very start, which takes 5200/240 = 21.7 days, our research speed ticks up to 360/day.

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RC at 25.2 days.
MW at 27.3 (suppressors!!)
AB 30.9 (AP! AWC!)
HM 36.5 (Tracer! Nanoscale Vest!)
LW 47.6 (first and free Laser Rifle)
and finally finish Advanced lasers at day 58.7 of campaign.

So it means at the end of everything we get 1 additional scientist in exchange for 3 days of research time. The consequence would be that we are stagnating on tech for the first 1.5 supply cycles. Interesting statistic is day 39 vs 48 for your first laser rifle and smgs.

Of course, we can slot in Basic Research whenever we want to, maybe after Resistance comms.

I hope this helps and clarifies some of the murkiness behind this enigma called "Basic Research".

[GavinRuneblade]

So you are saying that basic research does actually give research like a scientist not just reduce requirements?

My test game must have been buggy, because I didn't get that outcome.

[JLtheking]

Oh it doesn't? I was operating under siath70's call. Saw it on this vod https://www.twitch.tv/joinrbs/v/117232978 that him completing basic research dropped Plasma Rifle time down from 16 to 14 days. So I assume that's how its supposed to work. The description of the research, and the text display after the research is completed, also suggests that it improves research time.

[trihero]

So you are saying that basic research does actually give research like a scientist not just reduce requirements?

My test game must have been buggy, because I didn't get that outcome.

It's not necessarily that your test is buggy, it's possible you already had a lot of scientists and the research time is low.

What I am talking about is like if you have a 2 day research with say 10+ scientists, it will take quite a number of scientists to get it down to 1 day. If you have few scientists with a high research time, it will be virtually impossible to not see a research time reduction. There is no paradox or bug here, just understanding how division/rounding works as you have more scientists.

So it means at the end of everything we get 1 additional scientist in exchange for 3 days of research time. The consequence would be that we are stagnating on tech for the first 1.5 supply cycles. Interesting statistic is day 39 vs 48 for your first laser rifle and smgs.

Of course, we can slot in Basic Research whenever we want to, maybe after Resistance comms.

I hope this helps and clarifies some of the murkiness behind this enigma called "Basic Research".

Aha, so you SHOULD do basic research at least once early in the game. 1 scientist for 3 days of research time is a very good deal considering that within 3 days you probably haven't even made enough money to build the items from that research anyways to impact more than 1 or 2 team members. I suspect that there will be a VAST difference between someone who hits basic research once early, versus someone who never bothers with it assuming that it's just some filler tech not worth the time. Your experiment is good but is capped until advanced lasers; I think the results will be even more dramatic if we drag it out over 9 months of a guy who did basic once, versus a guy who never did basic ever.

I wonder what the magic number is - should we do basic research twice early in the game? The way I play, I kind of assume yes because I don't actually tunnel dollars into laser weapons, I still have infrastructure to build like power relay, comm station, proving grounds, so why rush to research things I don't have money for I'll just invest the time in basic research to get effective scientists out of it. Going for a third time seems ludicrous considering how much more time the repeats take.

[JLtheking]

Anyway, since I already have the values in front of me, I went ahead to calculated the research of Plated armor immediately after Advanced Lasers.

Plated armor costs 5500 points to complete. So:

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[no Basic Research example]
Advanced Lasers 55.5
Plated Armor 78.4

[Basic Research at very start]
Advanced Lasers 58.7
Plated Armor 74

We can see that we finally overtake the traditional method, 3.5 supply drops into the campaign. All for one additional scientist. Mathematically speaking, this happens at day 65 into the campaign.

[JLtheking]

Since you requested, I shall run the numbers for queuing up 2 Basic Research projects.

Also, I would not mind expanding it out all the way to whatever tech you want. Just give me the order of what techs you want to research until. I can pull out the values very easily.

Question: How important is finishing up Resistance comms to you? For me, I do it immediately because being able to expand to 2 more havens, even if I'm not doing missions on it, I can let it sit there with everyone on Recruit to let it get to max 13.

[trihero]

I'm kind of waiting to hear your real conclusion - are you now an enthusiastic supporter of 1 x basic research?

Question: How important is finishing up Resistance comms to you? For me, I do it immediately because being able to expand to 2 more havens, even if I'm not doing missions on it, I can let it sit there with everyone on Recruit to let it get to max 13.

Yes , R comms immediately. I totally agree.

I actually my first 2 expansions to 1 recruit + rest intel like my home region because those regions have level 1 strength even on legend and it's nice to give your rookies some cheesy missions to chew their teeth on (if you tunnel your home region you can actually reach supply raid missions pretty early like April and I dunno if you want to throw your lowly lance corporals at that), but I can see the reasoning behind max recruits as well. I use max recruits mid-late game in regions I'm not operating in.

[JLtheking]

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*BasicResearchProject 5200
ResistanceCommunications 1250
ModularWeapons 760
AlienBiotech 1300 
HybridMaterials 2000
LaserWeapons 4000
AdvancedLasers 4000
Plated armor 5500

I am going to assume finishing RC first, as that is priority for me, and only takes 5 days and lets us continue expanding our haven network, build Resistance Comms etc. Weapon Upgrades also because its only 3 days and lets us make use of all the mods we find during tactical missions.

And again, controlling for no free scientists from missions.

No Basic Research

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(240/day)
RC at 5.2 days.
MW at 8.4
AB 13.8 (AP! AWC!)
HM 22.1 (Tracer! Nanoscale Vest!)
LW 38.8 (first and free Laser Rifle)
Advanced lasers 55.5
Plated Armor 78.4
 

1x Basic Research

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RC at 5.2 days.
MW at 8.4
First Basic Research 30.0; (Speed goes up to 360/day)
AB 33.7 (AP! AWC!)
HM 39.2 (Tracer! Nanoscale Vest!)
LW 50.3 (first and free Laser Rifle)
Advanced lasers 61.4
Plated Armor 83.7

2x Basic Research

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RC at 5.2 days.
MW at 8.4
First Basic Research 30.0; (Speed goes up to 360/day)
Second Basic Research 52.3; (Speed goes up to 480/day, Research points increased from 5200 to 8000)
AB 55.0 (AP! AWC!)
HM 59.1 (Tracer! Nanoscale Vest!)
LW 67.5 (first and free Laser Rifle)
Advanced lasers 75.8
Plated Armor 92.5

[trihero]

Interesting, so about 30 days difference between first laser weapons. This may or may not be acceptable; to me it would be acceptable because I've noticed that I don't really have money to buy a lot of laser weapons anyways when I first finish them. About a week difference to plated armor which is negligible, but past that hmm you're just better off.

Can you take the simulation or calculation up to advanced coil weps + exo and mobile suits?

And btw: are you now an enthusiastic supporter of 1 x basic research early in the game?

[JLtheking]

Can you take the simulation or calculation up to advanced coil weps + exo and mobile suits?

Sure. Do you mind giving the exact order of what you want to Research? Not too familiar with the order as I haven't even played that far yet

Looking at this though http://i.imgur.com/DdAxu1R.jpg

And btw: are you now an enthusiastic supporter of 1 x basic research early in the game?

Maybe. Still undecided. Hahaha.

[trihero]

Maybe. Still undecided. Hahaha.

You're one tough customer but hey you're running the sims, so I can't complain too much can I

[JLtheking]

Well I definitely am convinced enough to try it when LW2 1.1 comes out Especially because I heard somewhere that instant autopsies are in and that makes delaying them even more efficient.

[JLtheking]

Welp. I'm gonna go to sleep now. Its 5AM where I am Good thing tomorrow is my day off from work thanks to Chinese New Year

Maybe the others can chip in about what they think about the stats. I don't have a very good grasp of how the strategic progression works as I haven't put that many hours into LW2 myself. (Like seriously 30 out of 35 hours with the XCOM 2 Mod launcher up has been me digging into the config and source files /badprogrammerhabits)

Due to the fact that you have no supply income for at least the first month seems to suggest your theory of Basic Research during the first month is optimal; use the supplies you do get on expanding your roster for more missions and save up for when the research milestones hit.

[dodger]

I think you need to run the sims comparing if you DO get 1 or 2 scientists along the way too though.

Seems like basic research would have the most effect when you don't get them and be somewhat diminished if you do.

EDIT: Went ahead and did one comparison assuming 1 scientist on day 30:

No Basic Research:

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(240/day)
RC at 5.2 days.
MW at 8.4
AB 13.8 (AP! AWC!)
HM 22.1 (Tracer! Nanoscale Vest!)
1 Scientist - Day 30; (Speed goes up to 360/day)
LW 35.9 (first and free Laser Rifle)
Advanced lasers 46.9
Plated Armor 62.2

With Basic Research:

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(240/day)
RC at 5.2 days.
MW at 8.4
First Basic Research 30.0; (Speed goes up to 360/day)
1 Scientist - Day 30; (Speed goes up to 480/day)
AB 32.7 (AP! AWC!)
HM 36.8 (Tracer! Nanoscale Vest!)
LW 45.2 (first and free Laser Rifle)
Advanced lasers 53.5
Plated Armor 64.9

[GavinRuneblade]

I think you need to run the sims comparing if you DO get 1 or 2 scientists along the way too though.

Seems like basic research would have the most effect when you don't get them and be somewhat diminished if you do.

Not necessarily as much as you might think, remember those scientist s will reduce the time to complete basic research itself. So it's effects are hitting diminishing returns, but the cost is lower too.

[dodger]

I think you need to run the sims comparing if you DO get 1 or 2 scientists along the way too though.

Seems like basic research would have the most effect when you don't get them and be somewhat diminished if you do.

Not necessarily as much as you might think, remember those scientist s will reduce the time to complete basic research itself. So it's effects are hitting diminishing returns, but the cost is lower too.

Just added one scenario above using a scientist on day 30, same time you finish Basic Research, and that pushes the payback off to after Plated Armor.

I suppose though you could look at Basic Research as giving you the freedom to staff the AWC with your first scientist.

[Garthor]

This seems like a lot of effort for "Basic Research pays off after 43.333 days plus 23.333 days per repetition".

[trihero]

Run the simulation with the both strategies having to commit 1 scientist to AWC let's say....30 days in?

[GavinRuneblade]

So now we need the testers to say how long games usually last. Is 90 days for payoff still early enough or does that push something critical back too far?

Edit: thanks for the numbers!

[trihero]

I think most of us are waiting for 1.1 at this point. I'm going to place a bet on doing basic research twice. There are very few critical techs, the only one I can think of early game is lasers are nice but pushing them back even up to a month doesn't necessarily hurt that much because you don't have that many supplies to buy that many of them.

[dodger]

I think most of us are waiting for 1.1 at this point. I'm going to place a bet on doing basic research twice. There are very few critical techs, the only one I can think of early game is lasers are nice but pushing them back even up to a month doesn't necessarily hurt that much because you don't have that many supplies to buy that many of them.

Yeah, I think I'll plan to do one pretty early so first scientist can go into AWC when it's built, but I may wait until after Biotech so I can build the AWC early. Soliders are your most precious resource and healing them faster is so much help.

[trihero]

I"m glad I asked the original question and now I feel like we've informed everyone that it's stupid not to do basic research at least once some time early in the game.

[JLtheking]

I think my original experiment is fair in controlling for not having any additional scientists; its intention was to figure out the original question of whether or not it was optimal to rush basic research at the start. We cannot control when and whether or not we get free scientists from tactical missions, but we can control when and whether to do Basic Research.

Because the conventional wisdom to only start performing basic research when we get gated means we are missing out on the accumulation of benefits of having an "early" scientist. These benefits of extra 120/day the instant we finish that 5200 points of research do not go away as it's hard numbers.

Even if you get 3 scientists (like I did get 3 engineers) in the first month, 720/day over 600/day is still the same numerical increase in research efficiency. And again, you probably do not have the resources to properly construct laser weapons after boosting up to 720/day, you are letting the boosted research speed snowball into getting more basic research.

Question: does basic engineering even do anything other than getting over the gated research? We know basic research does, but what about engineering?