Any success with overwatch perks

[trihero]

Like Gunner, Specialist, Ranger going heavy on the reaction fire perks? I'm trying to see the silver lining but I find that if you are aiming for the late game when the enemy gets really crazy hp units, you don't want to be relying on reaction shots on those.

I could maybe see a use for a gunner that is heavily specced into suppressing, but even then you pretty much want/need one with shredder and multi shots for end game mobs. So maybe overwatch specced units are something as a luxury for a 10 man squad? Or how do you use them well? It seems more to your benefit to focus priority targets down than pray your overwatch (with all its glorious aim penalties) will fire on them.

[juplaa]

Like Gunner, Specialist, Ranger going heavy on the reaction fire perks? I'm trying to see the silver lining but I find that if you are aiming for the late game when the enemy gets really crazy hp units, you don't want to be relying on reaction shots on those.

I could maybe see a use for a gunner that is heavily specced into suppressing, but even then you pretty much want/need one with shredder and multi shots for end game mobs. So maybe overwatch specced units are something as a luxury for a 10 man squad? Or how do you use them well? It seems more to your benefit to focus priority targets down than pray your overwatch (with all its glorious aim penalties) will fire on them.

It's pretty powerful on a gunner with decent base aim. Mod your weapon with hair trigger and laser sight for a good combo.

Their area suppression is very useful as the enemies will either take shots at low % or they will reliably take a strong hit.

(Edit) I forgot to mention gem: Destroy cover of grouped up enemies, then area-suppress them and a bloodbath will ensue.

[Goumindong]

Like Gunner, Specialist, Ranger going heavy on the reaction fire perks? I'm trying to see the silver lining but I find that if you are aiming for the late game when the enemy gets really crazy hp units, you don't want to be relying on reaction shots on those.

I could maybe see a use for a gunner that is heavily specced into suppressing, but even then you pretty much want/need one with shredder and multi shots for end game mobs. So maybe overwatch specced units are something as a luxury for a 10 man squad? Or how do you use them well? It seems more to your benefit to focus priority targets down than pray your overwatch (with all its glorious aim penalties) will fire on them.

So they have a number of uses. The main thing is that both Sentinel and Rapid Reaction mean that "good" overwatch shots actions have a much higher DPR than non-overwatch actions. The key is that

1) You need to either be able to force enemies to move
2) You need to be flanking/vs exposed with covering fire

In that sense i feel that their ideal use is:

1) Haven Soldiers: Rangers, Full OW spec.
2) Extraction Specialists

Haven Soldiers have a big advantage that faceless missions don't get a lot harder as the game goes on. They can move, with ever vigilant*, to a flanking position... and then buzzsaw down an entire pod. Alternately they can use their allies to force flanks while they sit protected, ready to punish the re-positioning advent.

Extraction specialists have the same idea. You almost never want to be in combat... you want to run away from enemies.. If you're double moving anyway then the free OW from ever vigilant is super nice. If you combine it with all the other perks you can punish enemies for attempting to get close, all the while, putting distance between yourself and them on the way to the extraction.

*Though for some reason this was not working on my ranger. The ever vigilant OW did not proc on double move or dash.

[trihero]

You have so many high ranking soldiers you can afford to put rapid reaction rangers in havens? At what point in the game is this?

[8wayz]

The idea with Overwatch is that you need to pair the OW specialist with another soldier that compliments him/her.

Here are a couple of combinations:

Two Rangers - one for critical hits with Rapid Fire that can fire up to 3 times per turn and one with Overwatch. You can fire up to 4 times per turn in total with both and still have a very good Overwatch that will proc on any enemy action.

A Ranger and Gunner - The Ranger is taking care of the Overwatch, while the Gunner can use Flush to make targets activate the Overwatch. If need be, Suppression can be used to totally lockdown the AI, as well as to limit dangerous units (like Sectopods).

Specialist and a Ranger - Use the Ranger as regular infantry and then put Aid protocol on it, that will also grant it Overwatch (with the proper perk). Then the Specialist can also enter Overwatch, if specked for it.

Sharpshooter and Ranger - With Death from Above and Long Watch, the Sniper can cover your soldiers every time it gets a kill, and as it has high Aim, it will hit almost anyone. The Overwatch Ranger can both serve as a spotter for the Sniper (for Squadsight) and to finish off any aliens surviving the first shot.

[Goumindong]

You have so many high ranking soldiers you can afford to put rapid reaction rangers in havens? At what point in the game is this?

No. But i will.

My experience with the ever-vigilant failing the ranger was from testing.

[Goumindong]

You have so many high ranking soldiers you can afford to put rapid reaction rangers in havens? At what point in the game is this?

No. But i will.

My experience with the ever-vigilant failing the ranger was from testing.

Edit: The easiest way to force reaction fire is to either

A: Flank the unit you want to shoot with the OW'ing unit
B: Flank the unit you want to shoot with another unit

Note that if you have "Cool Under Pressure" the to-hit roll on an OW shot, even against an enemy in cover, is better than shooting at them normally. It was only in xcom1 that overwatch had a raw to-hit penality (now it just can't cirt... but CUP gives you +10 aim and +10 crit and lets you crit)

[mattprice516]

I believe OW in XCOM 2 does have a to-hit penalty. Just not when firing from concealment.

[trihero]

Note that if you have "Cool Under Pressure" the to-hit roll on an OW shot, even against an enemy in cover, is better than shooting at them normally. It was only in xcom1 that overwatch had a raw to-hit penality (now it just can't cirt... but CUP gives you +10 aim and +10 crit and lets you crit)

Can you please clarify this? In vanilla XCOM 2, overwatch shots have a 70% multiplicative modifier, so the hit rating is quite severe. If you have a 100 hit rating against an enemy without cover or other defense bonuses, you will hit them if you shoot the straight up. If you overwatch on a flanked enemy you will have a 70 hit rating now (well 80 with cool under pressure). Thus your claim that overwatching with CUP is better than straight shooting doesn't make any sense.

Let's do another example with cover. You have 80 aim, and you want to shoot someone with high cover -> 80-45 = 35. If you overwatch, you have 80(0.7) = 56 aim-45+10 = 21 aim. Thus your claim that overwatching with CUP is better than straight shooting doesn't make any sense.

[Pandemonim]

So I was skeptical at first because I had mixed success with them in XCOM/LW 1, but I tried out a ranger this time and he is OUTRAGEOUSLY good. He's got the most kills in my campaign by a mile.

Now granted, he's better than stock because AWC he rolled center mass, hunter's instinct, and guardian (which combines with rapid reaction to let you potentially overwatch 6 times). I gave him Combat Awareness PCS and dragon rounds and he can just sit in high cover, all by himself, and ruin entire pods with overwatch. I don't even think it's usually worth it to get Killzone because it takes two actions to use, and you'll be emptying your clip every round with a regular overwatch.

I think even without the crazy perk combination they'd be quite solid by themselves once they get rapid reaction.

[Goumindong]

I believe OW in XCOM 2 does have a to-hit penalty. Just not when firing from concealment.

It seems i was wrong. Even then the OW is quite valuable once you get >1 shot. I was considering the value of not shooting at a covered target.

[aedn]

My rangers are Covering fire - Locked on - Center Mass - grazing fire - Not sure - rapid reaction - rupture.

I have not gotten far enough to decide on TSGT perk, but after playing with walk fire vs covering fire this build is really superior for me. I have 2 with walk fire which are really decent early game, however as you progress in levels walk fire largely becomes non used due to aim. Next to my black market sharpshooter with 6 to 1 kill ratio, the 2 covering fire rangers are my best killers.

I am also running OW/suppression gunners on the right side of the tree, who are doing very well, i use low aim gunners since you can get bonus aim from covering fire & lockdown. Since aliens tend to move quite often in LW2 even when suppressed you do not always need to flank.

My core team for non stealth missions has turned into OW gunner, Ranger, regular gunner, specialist officer and a support grenadier with 5 flashbangs(no plating).

[trihero]

Since aliens tend to move quite often in LW2 evenSince aliens tend to move quite often in LW2 even when suppressed you do not always need to flank. when suppressed you do not always need to flank.

We must be playing different games; they usually don't move in my experience: they hunker down.

[8wayz]

You are indeed playing a different game, aliens do move a lot if you do not neutralise them with Flashbangs, Single Suppression etc.

The only time I have seen an adversary hunker down was I first threw a Flashbang grenade, then suppressed him on next turn, as I was taking care of another pod on my flank.

And he eventually moved on the third turn while suppressed, provoking a reaction shot.

[trihero]

You are indeed playing a different game, aliens do move a lot if you do not neutralise them with Flashbangs, Single Suppression etc.

The only time I have seen an adversary hunker down was I first threw a Flashbang grenade, then suppressed him on next turn, as I was taking care of another pod on my flank.

And he eventually moved on the third turn while suppressed, provoking a reaction shot.

Aliens pretty much sit there if you don't neutralize them; they love to sit behind high cover and shoot at you. I don't know how you are playing a different game.

I do have more respect for overwatch lately on timeless missions like HQ or swarming supply raids; laying overwatch traps and using a sniper to provoke them to run into you works nicely.

[8wayz]

It is probably dependent on the difficulty ? I am playing on Commander.

That said, I do play a highly mobile style, so often aliens relocate because I am flanking them, or thereabouts.

Even when I stay on a roof and try to do a Wild-West shoot-out, I always send my Assault and Shinobi to keep them on their toes and devastate at least one of their flanks.

Thus why Overwatch works pretty well for me, as aliens do not stay in one place at all.

[aedn]

You are indeed playing a different game, aliens do move a lot if you do not neutralise them with Flashbangs, Single Suppression etc.

The only time I have seen an adversary hunker down was I first threw a Flashbang grenade, then suppressed him on next turn, as I was taking care of another pod on my flank.

And he eventually moved on the third turn while suppressed, provoking a reaction shot.

Aliens pretty much sit there if you don't neutralize them; they love to sit behind high cover and shoot at you. I don't know how you are playing a different game.

I do have more respect for overwatch lately on timeless missions like HQ or swarming supply raids; laying overwatch traps and using a sniper to provoke them to run into you works nicely.

Aliens will move if not flashbanged, they rarely move with flashbang or move twice due to AI errors or indecision. Most advent and aliens will seek full cover on scamper, or if they are in half cover seek full cover on the next turn. They tend to break suppression and run overwatches, to get to full cover, as well as seeking their optimal range based on class, so they can use abilities. Engineers & rocketeers etc will tend to move closer to your position so they can use rockets or flashbangs. Vipers & officers will move towards soldiers who are grouped up to use spit or grenades.

Unlike LW, there is quite a bit more movement on the AI's part as it attempts to follow its programming. I am pretty sure this is why you sometimes see the double move as well.

[trihero]

Ok after having used rangers a lot with rapid reaction now, I'm convinced they are one of the best builds in the late game. Being able to do things like double move to flank into 3 shots on the enemy turn is silly, or just overwatch camping in general (pull with the sound of explosions, or shinobi + sharpshooter) does so much damage! And they are very helpful on retaliation missions where you can double move + ever vigilant overwatch.

Grazing fire/cool under pressure/ever vigilant/rapid reaction are must haves in the build, and I personally use covering fire/locked on/combat fitness in the other slots although rupture is a good consideration for tough enemies late game.

Your weapon *must* have expanded magazine, hair trigger, and autoloader, and for the last slot it depends, could be suppressor or scope depending on your tastes.

[Jacke]

Ok after having used rangers a lot with rapid reaction now, I'm convinced they are one of the best builds in the late game. ...

Grazing Fire/Cool Under Pressure/Ever Vigilant/Rapid Reaction are must haves in the build, and I personally use Covering Fire/Locked On/Combat Fitness in the other slots although Rupture is a good consideration for tough enemies late game.

Your weapon *must* have expanded magazine, hair trigger, and autoloader, and for the last slot it depends, could be suppressor or scope depending on your tastes.

How good is Covering Fire? Is there any reduction to the cover defence because you're firing at an enemy taking a shot? On my sole Ranger I took Walk Fire as a tool to kill off injured enemy in cover and don't even have the AWC yet to respec him....

Picking Locked On means passing up Suppression. Of course, Gunners always have it and Specialists and Technicals can get it, so for a build that has so many successive shots, likely is better to take Locked On.

What about Killzone for the last skill? With a build so designed for multiple shots, it would work well. But the same argument I made for Locked On would apply here too, especially as Rapid Reaction would really benefit from an earlier Rupture.

[trihero]

Ok after having used rangers a lot with rapid reaction now, I'm convinced they are one of the best builds in the late game. ...

Grazing Fire/Cool Under Pressure/Ever Vigilant/Rapid Reaction are must haves in the build, and I personally use Covering Fire/Locked On/Combat Fitness in the other slots although Rupture is a good consideration for tough enemies late game.

Your weapon *must* have expanded magazine, hair trigger, and autoloader, and for the last slot it depends, could be suppressor or scope depending on your tastes.

How good is Covering Fire? Is there any reduction to the cover defence because you're firing at an enemy taking a shot? On my sole Ranger I took Walk Fire as a tool to kill off injured enemy in cover and don't even have the AWC yet to respec him....

Picking Locked On means passing up Suppression. Of course, Gunners always have it and Specialists and Technicals can get it, so for a build that has so many successive shots, likely is better to take Locked On.

What about Killzone for the last skill? With a build so designed for multiple shots, it would work well. But the same argument I made for Locked On would apply here too, especially as Rapid Reaction would really benefit from an earlier Rupture.

Covering fire rarely triggers but is useful in a couple circumstances:

1) if the enemy finds cover right at the maximum range of your overwatch, you won't fire, and they will be able to fire at you. Covering fire lets you attack them back here
2) if the enemy is behind high cover they will rarely leave, sometimes they won't even leave if you're flanking them because you've flanked them anywhere they can go, so they will just sit there and shoot, so covering fire helps here

Yes, the cover defense hurts your overwatch shot. That's why grazing fire is mandatory, it essentially makes up for half of your miss chance.

I also agree locked on is better; I don't have time to use suppression, either I'm double dashing to abuse ever vigilant/covering fire/rapid reaction flanks. Suppression doesn't trigger rapid reaction either (tested many times).

Last skill, I simply prefer rupture or combat fitness, depending on my mood. Rupture is something you want to have some redundancy on your team because of late game sectopods/gatekeepers. Combat fitness puts laser-like focus on the overwatch build; if you miss the first or second rapid reaction shots, the efficiency goes way down, so anything to help aim helps the ranger do what he does best.


Edit: a couple more cents: there are some still very annoying mobs that counter overwatch in general, which makes rangers not the answer to everything- advent scouts, sidwinders have shadowstep so they don't trigger it at all. Elite vipers and chrysalids have lightning reflexes built in. Dark events can give stun lancers lightning reflexes as well. Lightning reflexes can simply be overcome with tons of people on overwatch, but it still dampens the effectiveness, and you will want some people who can kill shadowsteppers who are hiding in full cover.

[Jacke]

Edit: a couple more cents: there are some still very annoying mobs that counter overwatch in general, which makes rangers not the answer to everything- advent scouts, sidwinders have shadowstep so they don't trigger it at all. Elite vipers and chrysalids have Lightning Reflexes built in. Dark events can give stun lancers Lightning Reflexes as well. Lightning Reflexes can simply be overcome with tons of people on overwatch, but it still dampens the effectiveness, and you will want some people who can kill Shadowsteppers who are hiding in full cover.

Killing in full cover means high aim, blowing away the cover, or flanking, with stunning and disorientation thrown in to support. For the Ranger, I'll stay with Walk Fire over Covering Fire then.

EDIT: After rereading this topic, switching to Covering Fire over Walk Fire.

Does Shadowstep grant immunity to Suppression and Killzone reaction shots? Does Lightning Reflexes reduce the hit chance of them?

BTW, notice that the last skill choice for Gunners and Rangers is the same set of 3 skills. I'm likely to go with Rupture for Rangers, either Rupture or Killzone for Gunners.

[trihero]

Does Shadowstep grant immunity to Suppression and Killzone reaction shots? Does Lightning Reflexes reduce the hit chance of them?

Yes shadowsteppers are immune to reaction shots from all skills. Lightning reflexes makes the first two reaction shots impossible to hit with, and then gets much weaker after that. You can kill people with lightning reflexes with enough volume of overwatch, but if like 3 viper elites walk into your view I'd be surprised if you killed more than 1 with overwatch.

[Ketchup4684]

Danger Close (Bonus 2 tile radius) + Lockdown (+15 aim on targets that move through suppression) + elite hair trigger (+15 aim on reaction shots) + area suppression = a shut down pod that that the gunner gets a shot on for no penalty whenever they move. Pretty nice.

[Jacke]

If by Danger Close, you mean Danger Zone, what about swapping that for Cool Under Pressure? Aim +10 for reaction shots, overwatch and suppression, and reaction shots can now crit.