Is Gauss/Mag rushing possible?

[cmdrspyker92]

Pretty much title. Is Mag rushing a legitimate strategy? And if so, what are the benefits / trade offs tech wise? When do you expect to hit it? What do you need to have in order to compensate for the damage drop off in dealing with things like vipers and mecs? Or is the supply drain rolling them out simply too tight in LW2 due to limited supply of things like corpses?

In LW1 you could trade off the damage drop from not grabbing lasers with SHIVs and/or proponent of using heavy weapons / Ranger. Then you got a huge damage ramp and could dump corpses / elerium off in stacks for the alloys and money you need for a mass roll out, this could make the middle of the year rather difficult, but a mass rollout around August / October meant that you could ride out the next 6 months developing the rest of your inventory giving you a huge hedge against the aliens.

[The Boz]

On Rookie, maybe. You *really* need the accuracy/damage bump on Veteran+. Especially if a few HP/armor DEs poke their ugly heads in early.

[Jadiel]

I think it's possible, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. One of the reasons it worked so well in LW1 was because of carbines. Gauss carbine was almost exactly equivalent to a laser rifle (same damage/aim/ammo), but extra mobility and some DR pen. It was also cheaper than a gauss rifle, and so the cost gap was lower as well.

In LW2 there is no carbine, and your soldiers will really miss the aim bonus granted by laser weapons until they rank up and get aim bonuses naturally. In LW1, weapon fragments and research time were both bottlenecks on your progression, whereas in LW2 resources seem to form more of a bottleneck ("I've researched Mag weapons, but my troops are still carrying ballistics" seems to be a much more common gamestate). So the advantages of skipping a tier are perhaps less?

[redscare]

I did it in Veteran (no ironman). Not on purpose, I just did not have any supplies at all to buy laser weapons. So I skipped "advanced laser weapons" and went straight to Magnetic. I got magnetic just after liberating my first region and starting to get a decent, stable supply of supplies. Totally doable, though the regional HQ was hard to tackle with basic guns.

[cmdrspyker92]

I did it in Veteran (no ironman). Not on purpose, I just did not have any supplies at all to buy laser weapons. So I skipped "advanced laser weapons" and went straight to Magnetic. I got magnetic just after liberating my first region and starting to get a decent, stable supply of supplies. Totally doable, though the regional HQ was hard to tackle with basic guns.

This sounds more in line with what Jadiel stated. Where you just got bottlenecked on supplies and ended up just grabbing magnetic rifles because it was convenient.

Side note: Could that be more of a balance issue? Are lasers too expensive to do a full roll out? Are mag rifles untenable because of how the tech tree ends up rolling around and you liberate a region roughly the same time you have access to them, meaning you should just ditch lasers?

[The Boz]

I have just reached (but not researched fully) Mag weapons, but lasers definitely feel somewhat expensive to me... either that, or supplies are scarce. Only about half the guys in my four active squads are upgraded to the laser standard...
Don't yet know how expensive Mag is, though.

[GavinRuneblade]

I have just reached (but not researched fully) Mag weapons, but lasers definitely feel somewhat expensive to me... either that, or supplies are scarce. Only about half the guys in my four active squads are upgraded to the laser standard...
Don't yet know how expensive Mag is, though.

Mag is about double the price of lasers

[trihero]

Lasers are 25 supplies, mag is 40 supplies (+ some minor alloy/elerium) per weapon.

It's certainly possible, but I don't see how it's desired. For one thing if you want to rush mag weapons, then you need a bit of luck of the draw to have enough scientist rescues to speed it along. Also like everyone above said, don't forget lasers have +5% aim for all their weapons, which is roughly comparable to the +1-2 damage from mag weapons.

I prefer to tech lasers, then skip to coil/gauss weapons, not building any mag weapons in between. It saves money and I like the aim.

[redscare]

Lasers are 25 supplies, mag is 40 supplies (+ some minor alloy/elerium) per weapon.

It's certainly possible, but I don't see how it's desired. For one thing if you want to rush mag weapons, then you need a bit of luck of the draw to have enough scientist rescues to speed it along. Also like everyone above said, don't forget lasers have +5% aim for all their weapons, which is roughly comparable to the +1-2 damage from mag weapons.

I prefer to tech lasers, then skip to coil/gauss weapons, not building any mag weapons in between. It saves money and I like the aim.

Side note: Could that be more of a balance issue? Are lasers too expensive to do a full roll out? Are mag rifles untenable because of how the tech tree ends up rolling around and you liberate a region roughly the same time you have access to them, meaning you should just ditch lasers?

I started my campaign before 1.1, so I had to put all rebels on intel, as faceless hit like a truck in 1.0. Now, starting from scratch in 1.1 with faceless stealing only a % of supplies, it may be possible to buy some laser guns. So definitely a balance issue... that it's maybe fixed already. The moment I got the first liberated region I could afford magnetic guns no problem. Next month I could also buy new armor for almost everyone as well.

Now I guess that at some point I'll get hammered in my free region with all guys doing supplies and no one looking for advent invasion I'll set some more balanced setup soon, as I'm about to liberate another 2 regions (infiltrating HQ in one, and tower in the other).

[Ketchup4684]

Definitely. Magnetic weapons don't cost that much more than laser weaponry, and the difference in damage is substantial. Even better, it gets u on the path to Coilguns faster, laser wrapon research only leads up to Plasma guns, which is waaaaaaay late game (Each plasma gun requires an elerium core to produce). So it's basically trading a weaker early game for a much stronger mid game.

[cmdrspyker92]

Definitely. Magnetic weapons don't cost that much more than laser weaponry, and the difference in damage is substantial. Even better, it gets u on the path to Coilguns faster, laser wrapon research only leads up to Plasma guns, which is waaaaaaay late game (Each plasma gun requires an elerium core to produce). So it's basically trading a weaker early game for a much stronger mid game.

I may attempt it in my current campaign. What recommendations for dealing with the weaker earlier game? I can rush scope fabrication to deal with the aim loss, thats not an issue, but the damage curve, especially on legendary is.

[Goumindong]

Is the damage curve really that big a deal? Its 1 HP per hit. And you have to spend resources to get it on those units.

Maybe go armor first. So that you've got better punch from secondary abilities? And also a bit of up on the incoming damage curve

[Ketchup4684]

Is the damage curve really that big a deal? Its 1 HP per hit. And you have to spend resources to get it on those units.

Maybe go armor first. So that you've got better punch from secondary abilities? And also a bit of up on the incoming damage curve

1.5 damage. The range on the assault rifle goes from 4-7 (laser) to 5-9, so the average compared dmg is 5.5 to 7. It saves time and resources going straight for magnetic weapons (And then up to coilguns) rather than stopping by for lasers.

[trihero]

1.5 damage. The range on the assault rifle goes from 4-7 (laser) to 5-9, so the average compared dmg is 5.5 to 7. It saves time and resources going straight for magnetic weapons (And then up to coilguns) rather than stopping by for lasers.

Err, it saves time and resources to go lasers, then to coilguns (you have to research magnetic to get coils, but so what? you have to research lasers as well if you want plasma). Laser aim makes up for the damage of magnetic IMO, and the weapons are significantly cheaper as well.

[aimlessgun]

I did it on Legend, it seemed fine. It's only 1 more tech to research than lasers. It saves you resources that are much needed midgame (unless you were going to skip mags but I cannot imagine dealing with August aliens using laser weapons). The damage upgrade is significant, mathematically 5 aim is not even close to 1.5-2 more damage unless you're regularly taking really low percentage shots you probably shouldn't be taking.

You also get to coilguns faster and plasma slower. Having just gotten coilguns, I don't really have an educated opinion on this, but I can say I really needed those coilguns.

[trihero]

Yes, the damage upgrade is significant, but it comes at the cost of increased resources.

Accounting for resources, let's do some simple math:

You have 200 supplies (let's forget alloy/elerium costs for simplicity), either you can make 8 laser rifles or 5 mag rifles (this spends the 200 supplies). Then we compare damage over conventional weaponry.

8 laser rifles x 1.5 average damage above conventional = +12 average over conventional
5 mag rifles x 3 average damage above conventional = +15 average over conventional

But you forgot that lasers have +5% aim. The +5% across 8 laser rifles on average is equivalent to +40% of a laser rifle, and a laser rifle does 5.5 average damage, so +2.2 damage bringing the rifles to 14.2 damage over conventional vs mag's 15 over conventional.

So accounting for resources, the damage output is virtually the same. Mag rifles take longer to research, so it's makes sense it's...a tiny bit better in terms of damage per resources. The math isn't overwhelmingly in favor of mag rifles is the takeaway message here.

There are lots of nuances in practice in favor of mag rifles like you can't bring 8 laser rifles to a network tower mission, armor, but there are also nuances in favor of rifle's aim as well since 5% could easily be the difference between whether you decide to take the shot or not to begin with.

I will say that I'm sick of the lasers messing up my fps, so on the next run I will be skipping making laser weapons, but it has nothing to do with the math.

[aimlessgun]

All good points. You also delay Predator Armor by rushing mags (though I didn't feel like I needed it with how effectively aliens were getting cleared). I don't remember my campaign in enough detail to know what I did with the extra supplies/alloys I eventually had from not building lasers, though I suspect much of it went to Predator Armor.

Underinfiltrated supply raids might be a bit sketchy too right before the mags come online.

Anyways, it might not be optimal, but I think it's certainly a legitimate strategy.

I may attempt it in my current campaign. What recommendations for dealing with the weaker earlier game?

Lots of grenades. Gunners and rangers with Center Mass.

[cmdrspyker92]

Yes, the damage upgrade is significant, but it comes at the cost of increased resources.

Accounting for resources, let's do some simple math:

You have 200 supplies (let's forget alloy/elerium costs for simplicity), either you can make 8 laser rifles or 5 mag rifles (this spends the 200 supplies). Then we compare damage over conventional weaponry.

8 laser rifles x 1.5 average damage above conventional = +12 average over conventional
5 mag rifles x 3 average damage above conventional = +15 average over conventional

But you forgot that lasers have +5% aim. The +5% across 8 laser rifles on average is equivalent to +40% of a laser rifle, and a laser rifle does 5.5 average damage, so +2.2 damage bringing the rifles to 14.2 damage over conventional vs mag's 15 over conventional.

So accounting for resources, the damage output is virtually the same. Mag rifles take longer to research, so it's makes sense it's...a tiny bit better in terms of damage per resources. The math isn't overwhelmingly in favor of mag rifles is the takeaway message here.

There are lots of nuances in practice in favor of mag rifles like you can't bring 8 laser rifles to a network tower mission, armor, but there are also nuances in favor of rifle's aim as well since 5% could easily be the difference between whether you decide to take the shot or not to begin with.

I will say that I'm sick of the lasers messing up my fps, so on the next run I will be skipping making laser weapons, but it has nothing to do with the math.

I kinda wish we had the spreadsheets for the Gauss rush in LW1 that made it so popular. Its how I won my I/I campaign.

[burns]

A little necro on this one as my recent 1.2 commander (definitely non ironman) campaign is about to come to an end and I'm already spending a few thoughts on my next campaign.
I intend to try C/I and I'd like to know if there will be some changes to the tech path and costs for lasers and/or mags.

I feel like I will go for (adv.) lasers asap, then predator armor, then fill in tier 2 gauntlet, sword and gremlin and rush for coil weapons after that with only a few investments into mag weapons for my top team assault, gunner and sharpshooter.
(Research will include the top priority autopsies where they fit in best of course or the rush for coil is interupted by a lack of requirements)

So, I obviously can't consider this to be revolutionary thinking but it seems to me that the supplies saved on mag weapons are better spent on gauntlets, predator armor and especially tac vests as Formidable changes to ablatives.

This will leave me with assaults, gunners and sharpshooters as my main weapon damage dealers assisted by the secure damage sources from the other classes and rangers being the odd men out at first, i.e. haven advisors.
(Here lies another reason I tend to go this route because I had to wait even one more tech until Adv. mags to equip the weapon damage dealers.)

The other way around I would spend my supplies on equipment other then a few laser weapons while rushing for mag weapons but this feels risky as the research might be on hold at some point and I won't be able to rearrange for more lasers. The supplies will be spent because there is never a reason to save more money than teching requires.
In the fortunate case of three early sci/engs I can see myself changing my mind but right now this looks like the way I can provide a good balance between damage output (on Commander difficulty) and survivabilty.

Patch 1.3 will most likely see many players start a fresh campaign. Some will make the jump to Commander or even to Legendary if they aren't there yet already, so I guess/hope I'm not alone with early campaign plannings. So let's see what our experiences over the last weeks told us, what difference we expect difficulty to make, or what preferences in soldiers influence the tech order over the first two to three month. Lasers vs. mags will always be at the center of these thoughts so we might just continue this thread.
(Please tell me thinking about 1.3 doesn't kill rookies as well. )