Gunners Builds

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Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Gunners Builds

Post by Jacke »

Still trying to nail this one down. As with the Ranger, I'd like to stick to just one build for Gunners (all other starting classes have 2 or more for 16 builds total. :) ) Currently:

Gunner
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Iron Curtain - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Rupture

Hopefully Grazing Fire and Shredder have a synergy: a graze will still shred. Iron Curtain and Saturation Fire are cone AoE attacks, with Sat Fire shredding. Chain Shot to take advantage of Gunner's high aim. Rupture to accelerate killing big beasties.

Possible substitution are 2 Hail of Bullets, 2 Lockdown, 3 Demolition, 4 Formidable, 4 Mayhem, and 7 Killzone.

EDIT: My latest Gunner builds.

Gunner
Grazing Fire - Hail of Bullets - Demolition - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Rupture

Gunner Shredder
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Iron Curtain - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Traverse Fire - Rupture
Last edited by Jacke on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Poobah
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Poobah »

I tend to build:

Center Mass - Hail of Bullets - Demolition - Formidable / Chain Shot - Cyclic Fire - Saturation Fire - Combat Fitness / Rupture

I also have one guy who rolled Guardian in AWC so I gave him Cool Under Pressure and Kill Zone. I'm tending to think Rupture is better than Combat Fitness even on lower statted guys now that I'm thinking about it, it just doesn't seem to be enough stats to make up for losing an insanely powerful ability. I've seen a lot of derision for Demolition around the forum "why destroy 1 single piece of cover when you can xyz" but I've found it incredibly useful throughout my campaign. Early on it's fantastic because there's no other way to reliably remove cover and later on I've found plenty of situations where I've got an enemy behind high cover and Hail of Bullets and Saturation Fire are both on cooldown. Formidable vs Chain shot is a hard choice and I usually lean towards Chain Shot to give my gunners even more stopping power for dealing with high hp enemies later on but I think it's easy to underestimate how useful a point of armour is once you start getting up the tech tree and stacking up the armour. Saturation Fire relies on careful positioning but it's oh so good when deployed properly. Cyclic Fire has the big disadvantage of needing 2 actions to fire but it also does an absurd amount of damage so I find it hard to turn down.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by trihero »

I like the build in the original post, except I take demolition over iron curtain nowadays. Iron curtain gets replaced by sat fire.
UraniumOverdose
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:54 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by UraniumOverdose »

Every gunner I have has Demolition, Hail of bullets, Cyclic fire, and Saturation.
The other perks might switch around a bit, but those four are an absolute must.
Hail of bullets is stupid OP.
Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Jacke »

I should have added 4 Formidable as an alternative in the original post; I've edited it. Always wanting to take something else, but always wanting to take it to get early armour and blast protection.

I'm inclining towards trihero's build now.

Gunner
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Demolition - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Rupture

More drawn out thought on all this. I really wish this forum had some sort of spoiler tag.

I wish more of the descriptions had ammo consumption and cooldown values. Can look in XComGameData_SoldierSkills.ini and XComLW_SoldierSkills.ini for some, but not all there. Until I learn different, I'm assuming most skills match their namesakes in the Long War Perk Pack. There's information at this link.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Skills sometimes buff existing things or add something to a weapons' tactical toolkit. Adding a significant new thing tends to be more attractive. In both case, long cooldowns make the power seem not worth it, unless that single use in a battle can be gamechanging.

2 Shredder shreds armour (and is only available on the primary outside of AWC skills for the Gunner, Technical, and SPARK) and every hit should shredder, especially with 1 Grazing.

2 Hails of Bullets provides sure hits against high defence and high dodge targets, but uses 3 ammo and has a 5-turn cooldown.

Grenades and rockets provide both sure hits and shredding too, but the rockets especially are in short supply. However, both my common primary-focused Technical and SPARKs will be taking Shredder, as well as those who get it from the AWC. Do I need it on my Gunners as well? Well, when armour rolls out, it's going to be a pain. My Legendary campaign has had double-armoured drones since late March. In April has at least 1 double-armoured Muton on every mission. Which means he's ground-zero for the opening rocket. :) But what when there's more of them?

2 Lockdown and 4 Mayhem make suppression reaction shots hit more often and hit harder. But that can come from having better aim and more powerful weapons. And the suppression isn't just to damage but to make it harder for the enemy to shoot back or move. The alternates, 2 Shredder, 2 Hail of Bullets, 4 Chain Shot, and 4 Formidable add somethings that weren't there before. 2 Hail of Bullets does have a long cooldown.

3 Iron Curtain provides an AoE attack with snare effect. Helpful against multiple enemy and melee enemy. But it's only available every 3 turns and costs 3 ammo.

4 Chain Shot and 5 Cyclic Fire boost the damage rate by delivering more shots in a turn. Chain Shot fires once and then if it hit, fires again, every 3 turns. Cyclic Fire 3 times every 4 turns. Good for momentary bursts.

5 Cool Under Pressure adds something new. It makes overwatch and suppression shots hit more often, but it also allows them to crit. If the Gunner can crit during overwatch and suppression shots, more damage is possible. trihero has said he always regrets passing up Cool Under Pressure on a solider later in the game. As well, 1 Grazing helps 4 Chain Shot get its first hit so it can try for the 2nd.

I'm thinking I'm going to have to test some of these skills and perhaps not just a quick run with a small team or just the solder and see how they work.
Ketchup4684
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:29 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Ketchup4684 »

Lockdown + Danger Close + mayhem = A very very strong suppression gunner. I had one suppress 7 units at once on a tower assault, because Danger Close is amazing, and he killed the 3 that attempted to move. With Lockdown and an elite hair trigger, the overwatch penalty is negated amd most of the time superceded by the aim bonuses, and his shots were dealing 125% normal damage thanks to Mayhem. Take 2 of these on any mission and you'll be suppressing all the units of every pod you come against.
nmkaplan
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by nmkaplan »

Ketchup4684 wrote:Lockdown + Danger Close + mayhem = A very very strong suppression gunner. I had one suppress 7 units at once on a tower assault, because Danger Close is amazing, and he killed the 3 that attempted to move. With Lockdown and an elite hair trigger, the overwatch penalty is negated amd most of the time superceded by the aim bonuses, and his shots were dealing 125% normal damage thanks to Mayhem. Take 2 of these on any mission and you'll be suppressing all the units of every pod you come against.
You called the perk "Danger Close" in another thread too. I figured it was a typo there, but now I'm wondering if there's a bad translation somewhere in one of the loc files. Is your first language something other than English? The perk is called "Danger Zone" in English. "Danger Close" doesn't make any sense as the name of the perk (in English, anyway).
Ketchup4684
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:29 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Ketchup4684 »

nmkaplan wrote:
Ketchup4684 wrote:Lockdown + Danger Close + mayhem = A very very strong suppression gunner. I had one suppress 7 units at once on a tower assault, because Danger Close is amazing, and he killed the 3 that attempted to move. With Lockdown and an elite hair trigger, the overwatch penalty is negated amd most of the time superceded by the aim bonuses, and his shots were dealing 125% normal damage thanks to Mayhem. Take 2 of these on any mission and you'll be suppressing all the units of every pod you come against.
You called the perk "Danger Close" in another thread too. I figured it was a typo there, but now I'm wondering if there's a bad translation somewhere in one of the loc files. Is your first language something other than English? The perk is called "Danger Zone" in English. "Danger Close" doesn't make any sense as the name of the perk (in English, anyway).
Ah, sorry. There was a perk in LW1 called Danger Close was very fond of, so it seems ive been accidentally calling Danger Zone Danger Close all this time. Whoops.
aimlessgun
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:22 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by aimlessgun »

Gunners are a class that's easy to take more than one of, so it would be a waste to only have one build. I don't think you need 2 Ruptures on a mission. You don't need 2 suppression gunners, you really don't want to give up Hail for 2 Shredder gunners.

If I only get to bring one gunner, I use them as a main damage dealer in an alphastrike focused playstyle, so I want the build that kills stuff on my turn and does that reliably.
-Center Mass +1 dmg is a huge deal early and midgame for reliably one shotting stuff.
-Hail makes so many turns solvable for a podkill that otherwise might leave enemies up behind high cover.
-Demolition is the same, and often you can expose 2 guys that are leaning on the same piece of cover.
-Chain Shot/Cyclic take care of hard targets with a single soldier, freeing up other soldiers for more turn solves.
-Saturation Fire is like an unholy combination of Iron Curtain and Demolition.
-Rupture vs Combat Fitness comes down to if a Ranger already has Rupture and how badly the soldier needs the stats (for example it's much more attractive on a guy with only 13 mobility).

But that's just what fits me. Though I feel this where the Gunner is most powerful, and Area Suppression is still good even without spending talents to improve it.
trihero
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Re: Gunners Builds

Post by trihero »

Center mass and hail of bullets undeniably makes the early game significantly more manageable; I will say though that grazing fire generally gives you more dps than +1 damage in the late game because it essentially cuts your miss chance in half. Even on grazing shots I'm dealing like 7-9 damage at high weapon tech, and +1 damage doesn't compare with that. Grazing fire is an excellent aid to overwatch, but also just lets you shoot through high cover with surprisingly good results - if you have a 50% chance to hit through high cover, grazing fire turns that into a 75% to hit at the loss of some damage, so it's like a passive Walk Fire.

You also want/need some kind of plan for targets with 4+ armor in the late game which significantly slow down your pew pews; you can get one gunner with shredder, or just bring a lot of grenades.

I think I would build gunners in roughly a 3: 1 ratio of 3 hail of bullets/center mass gunners to 1 shredder/grazing fire gunner. The shredder gunner I actually take traverse fire on instead of sat fire to make sure he can shred a lot of armor with things like shoot, then rupture. The hail of bullets gunners just make life incredibly easy even through the late game when you're assassinating sidewinders/sergeants through high cover, and with their crazy saturation fire openers. If you get lucky with the AWC, sometimes you can pick up a different class with shredder like a ranger or sniper for instance which can relieve your gunner of the duty of shredder.
The Boz
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:01 pm

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by The Boz »

Does Shredder work with Graze?
I could never confirm it, but I've been building my offensive gunners as if it did...
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by trihero »

The Boz wrote:Does Shredder work with Graze?
I could never confirm it, but I've been building my offensive gunners as if it did...
It does
Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Jacke »

I was really trying to hold Gunners to 1 build. Oh well, I still have 1 build for Rangers. And now 18 total....

So, 3 builds for Gunners. Critiques and skill substitution suggestions are invited. Maybe I could get by with only two builds?

Gunner Hail
Grazing Fire - Hail of Bullets - Demolition - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Rupture

Gunner Lockdown
Grazing Fire - Lockdown - Demolition - Mayhem - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Killzone

Gunner Shredder
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Demolition - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Traverse Fire - Rupture

They all pick a different 2nd perk. They all go with Grazing Fire, Demolition, and Cool Under Pressure because I think those 3 are better than the other perks at those levels. The Suppression build takes skills to make suppression stronger but still takes Cool Under Pressure over Danger Zone as getting more reaction aim and crits is more important than a wider fire template. The Shredder build also switches outs Saturation Fire for Traverse Fire; could take Rapid Fire instead, but that's more a move-and-doubletap skill; Traverse allows fitting in the single-action-point shots as well.
Last edited by Jacke on Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
Posts: 422
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Re: Gunners Builds

Post by gimrah »

Depends if he can shoot.

If yes, then you want centre mass and chain shot. If no, you want grazing fire and formidable/mayhem and probably saturation fire rather than rapid/traverse fire.

Lockdown should be a good pick for some builds but I have to take Hail of Bullets every time on every build. Guaranteed damage is so valuable, especially at full weapon strength.

Otherwise it's a matter of taste. Personally I never liked Killzone because half the time it doesn't seem to proc when it should.
Jacke
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Jacke »

I'm really really trying to hold down my number of builds. It's currently 18 for the initial 8 soldier classes and that's crazy. Will try to cut it to 17 or 16. Having too many different builds is tactically confusing, even with squad composition to make sure there's no important tactical tool missed.

With a comment from joINrbs in his latest Legendary/Ironman summary saying aim-based builds are weaker, decided that I don't need a build with Lockdown and I've narrowed Gunner down to these two:

Gunner Area
Grazing Fire - Hail of Bullets - Iron Curtain - Mayhem - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Killzone

Gunner Shredder
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Demolition - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Traverse Fire - Rupture

Still iffy about Iron Curtain versus Demolition on both builds, but having another AoE with mid-to-late-game specialty rounds could be powerful.

EDIT: My latest Gunner builds.

Gunner
Grazing Fire - Hail of Bullets - Demolition - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Rupture

Gunner Shredder
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Iron Curtain - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Traverse Fire - Rupture
Last edited by Jacke on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stroggus
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Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:29 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Stroggus »

IMHO Rupture dont have any usage if you have Chain Shot/Rapid Fire/Cyclic Fire. Because after one of these skills target is basically dead (especially with shred). I took Rupture on my gunner but in the end NEVER EVER used it once, there were just no situation in which this would be useful, because in the end multiple shot skills are just more effective, you use them and then 1-2 regular shots from rifle if the target is still alive and thats it.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Goumindong »

As i see it there are basically two builds and they go in the same squad.

1) OW specialist: Grazing, Lockdown, Iron Curtain, Mayhem/Formidable, Danger Zone/Cool Under Pressure, Saturation Fire, Combat Fitness

Reasoning: Maximize OW potential. Mayhem/Formidable are both good, you care more about hitting than damage. Similarly for Danger Zone/CUP. Formidable gives you a bit of utility and also protects you from grenades. Danger Zone can be negated by ammo issues but still is quite nice. If you run with

Traverse fire is almost useless because you're going to have to reload as your first action 99% of the time anyway. So might as well grab saturation. This is assuming Expanded Magazine, Hair Trigger, Auto-loader. Simply because suppression/area suppression takes up so much ammo.

Kill Zone seems great... but you would almost rather be suppressing. Also it takes 2 actions and so is very hard to effectively use due to needing reloads and other things. This MIGHT change if Kill Zone really does utilize squad sight for gunners, and gunners can get extended range shots off just fine (because it lets you open pods with a phantom unit before they see you)

2) Pure Shooting; Grazing Fire, Hail of Bullets, Iron Curtain, Chain Shot, Cyclic Fire, Saturation Fire, Combat Fitness

Basically, get all the high damage options. Damage when you miss. Damage Guaranteed. Shooting plus more damage, shooting even more. Shooting everything for more damage all the time.
trihero
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Re: Gunners Builds

Post by trihero »

I've heard they are nerfing sat fire a lot, so hold onto those build ideas :O
Goumindong
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Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Goumindong »

trihero wrote:I've heard they are nerfing sat fire a lot, so hold onto those build ideas :O
Even if they nerf it a lot there isn't much of a reason to take traverse or rapid. You're either OW spec'd or already have Chain Shot(3), Hail of Bullets(5), and cyclic fire(4), and iron Curtain(3) which means that you really don't need much in that slot in order to give you a full, or near full cycle. Saturation would have to take quite a hit in order to not be valuable in that space. Not that traverse fire is bad, but you've already got 3 "single target" abilities

Similarly on the other side if you're OW spec'd then traverse fire gives you almost nothing except maybe the ability to shoot+OW sometimes
trihero
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Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by trihero »

Code: Select all

Not that traverse fire is bad, but you've already got 3 "single target" abilities
Chain shot has an aim penalty and in fact is guarantees a miss of the second shot if the first shot misses. Traverse fire is superior except if you had to move first. Or, you could use them both together for 3 shots. They are not mutually exclusive, but even if they were then traverse fire is better and has no cooldown as long as you didn't move first.

Cyclic fire also has an aim penalty, and I don't like the skill because it requires both actions (you cannot reload then cast it unless you have an autoloader for instance). It's not necessary at all that this skill be chosen. I like cool under pressure a lot even for non-OW specced gunners, because I actually wind up using it vs cyclic fire not so much.

Traverse fire also lets you shoot at different targets, which happens quite a bit. I use gunners to finish off lmultiple low hp targets frequently because of their grazing fire upping accuracy so much. Chain/cyclic fire don't do this no matter how hard they try, so I do not think they can replace traverse fire.

The only reason I don't pick traverse fire currently is because sat fire is too utterly ridiculous currently. I have heard that sat fire is indeed taking quite a hit, a hit enough that gunners are no longer in contention for the best class anymore (and hail of bullets is going up to 5 ammo, so gunners can be massive burden without autoloaders).
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by trihero »

Stroggus wrote:IMHO Rupture dont have any usage if you have Chain Shot/Rapid Fire/Cyclic Fire. Because after one of these skills target is basically dead (especially with shred). I took Rupture on my gunner but in the end NEVER EVER used it once, there were just no situation in which this would be useful, because in the end multiple shot skills are just more effective, you use them and then 1-2 regular shots from rifle if the target is still alive and thats it.
Welp, we fundamentally disagree. I use rupture all the time once sectopods and gatekeepers show up. I'm not going to play around tickling them when they have 6-7 armor (and also sectopods can get damage control for even more armor...). I rupture (+ shredder them) and take them out quick like. I'm sad when I have to face one of these monstrosities without rupture because it takes more effort than usual.
cerebrawl
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by cerebrawl »

I build mine around what AWC perks they get...

I just had one kill about 20 aliens on turn 1 with Reaper, that was neat. (Gunner with Fleche, Blademaster and Reaper. Also Rapid Reaction).

I literally pulled every pod on the map turn 1 on a swarming troop transport.
Hazelnut
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:00 pm

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Hazelnut »

trihero wrote:I've heard they are nerfing sat fire a lot, so hold onto those build ideas :O
Why? It's the only thing that makes my gunners worth taking IMO. Without that I'd rather have rangers. Suppression is so crap in LW2 once the ayys have some decent dodge and tac sense etc. They can move with only about a 1/5 chance of being hit in my experience.

Sat fire is definitely very strong which is why it has such a long cooldown to compensate. Remove it and I will stop bothering with gunners I think, or maybe it's just that all mine have poor-avg aim because they were all chosen at random (built AWC first) or rescued.
Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Jacke »

Sounding like I could get down to one Gunner build:

Gunner
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Demolition - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Traverse Fire - Rupture

Even the area build would likely change at most 2 perks, but I'm wondering if maybe it should just take Iron Curtain considering the lessening of Saturation Fire.

Gunner Area
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Iron Curtain - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Rupture

It's disturbing that the progress of enemy improvement can get to the point where the main feature of a class, Gunner's Suppression, could be made almost pointless.

EDIT: My latest Gunner builds.

Gunner
Grazing Fire - Hail of Bullets - Demolition - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Rupture

Gunner Shredder
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Iron Curtain - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Traverse Fire - Rupture
Last edited by Jacke on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kizaray
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:16 am

Re: Gunners Builds

Post by Kizaray »

For me i run my game with "not created equally" and "hudden potential" maxed out. The stats i get determine my skill path. If i get a gunner with boss aim skills you bet your ass im giving him shredder with as many double/tripple shots i can. [These are invaluable vs sectopods and other armored jerks]
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