Good PG Projects

[trihero]

Also tracer rounds aren't good. 5 aim for a slot is bad. You could put smoke or a grenade there. Or AP rounds or literally nothing and gain the mobility.

Wot? 5 aim is 5 aim, and aim is hard to come by. You could still have a smoke or grenade in another slot, it's not like the ammo slot is a yes/no choice between ammo/grenade. I'd use these suckers all the time in the early game if I weren't so miserly saving for upgraded guns. And I still find a way to squeeze them onto sharpshooters/rangers in the early game cuz I don't like missing, not one bit, and there's only so many things you can actually do to help aim.

[Goumindong]

5 aim is not five aim. Its -1 Grenade. Or -1 Flashbang. Or -1 mobility. Or -1 some other ammo ability

In the end you will want to use ammo on

1) Sharpshooters
2) Gunners
3) Assaults sometimes
4) Rangers Sometimes

And well, 5 aim isn't wroth it on gunners early. And you would rather have AP on your sharpshooters. You don't need aim on your assaults. You're better off with grenades on your rangers.

[Arcalane]

Also tracer rounds aren't good. 5 aim for a slot is bad. You could put smoke or a grenade there. Or AP rounds or literally nothing and gain the mobility.

Wot? 5 aim is 5 aim, and aim is hard to come by. You could still have a smoke or grenade in another slot, it's not like the ammo slot is a yes/no choice between ammo/grenade. I'd use these suckers all the time in the early game if I weren't so miserly saving for upgraded guns. And I still find a way to squeeze them onto sharpshooters/rangers in the early game cuz I don't like missing, not one bit, and there's only so many things you can actually do to help aim.

Exactly this. When you want to weasel the absolute maximum possible accuracy out of your sharpshooters, every +5 helps -- and those sharpshooters may not be in a good spot to use most kinds of grenade.

Mobility? Using the Grappling Hook on the light variant armours is a free action. Once every four-five turns, you can take a free move action pretty much, because very few maps are flat. Your snipers should be wearing the light suits (also because they give a small mobility bonus too IIRC).

Oh yeah, and it's also an easy way to get Damn Good Ground and Height Advantage and Depth Perception bonuses.

And you would rather have AP on your sharpshooters.

Um, no, I would not. Not until they are high rank. Late game I'll take AP, sure, but at lower levels I want them landing hits.

[trihero]

5 aim is not five aim. Its -1 Grenade. Or -1 Flashbang. Or -1 mobility. Or -1 some other ammo ability

In the end you will want to use ammo on

1) Sharpshooters
2) Gunners
3) Assaults sometimes
4) Rangers Sometimes

And well, 5 aim isn't wroth it on gunners early. And you would rather have AP on your sharpshooters. You don't need aim on your assaults. You're better off with grenades on your rangers.

But you don't actually use the grenade/flashbang all the time, especially with your allied grenadiers who use them much better, and there are few other ways to improve aim. If you want to improve aim, it is one of the few methods to do so. I like aim on the shooting classes, often times over mobility and an extra grenade that I'm not even going to toss because I have support units who do that better. You might not care very much about mobility at all, like on supply raids. And the thing's cheap, doesn't cost no core to research or corpse to manufacture.

I use tracers on sharpshooters and rangers in the early game, and I never regret it. They are far from useless. You can still use one other grenade and an armor slot, and that's enough I don't feel like I run into situations where sharpshooters need to toss more than 1 smoke in a mission.

AP is ok on sharpshooters, but I don't see the necessity of it. I use snipers to knock out annoying sneks/rocketeers who don't normally come with armor (elite rocketeers have 1 armor point but that comes late in the game). If there is something that is *heavily* armored it's not usually the case that my sniper can 1 shot it anyways, it's going to need someone to expose the armor (this is where I have gunners with shredder step in). I do like getting the sniper as quickly as possible to 100% through high cover, and +5% aim helps that. And AP rounds do nothing obviously against units without armor, which is pretty frequent in the early game.

[LordYanaek]

And you would rather have AP on your sharpshooters.

Um, no, I would not. Not until they are high rank. Late game I'll take AP, sure, but at lower levels I want them landing hits.

As often, i think there is no hard rule and absolute answer. If your sharpshooter already have great aim (72+ base) or was lucky enough to pick lone wolf at AWC or you got an early superior scope, AP is very attractive as it means all those drones are done with a single shot each time.
However if you didn't stack a lot of aim, that small +5 can really make a difference. Even if it's only 5%, there is a high added value to a 100% shot compared to a 95% : you can build your strategy around that hit!

[UraniumOverdose]

I like dragon rounds and poison rounds.

Tactical vest is great for stacking up armor.

Literally everything else is subjective. Every single one of my grenadiers is specced for support not damage, so I couldn't care less about the grenades. Sting grenades are far superior to any grenade the PG can make.

[trihero]

Sting grenades are far superior to any grenade the PG can make.

A well placed incendiary grenade can be far superior to a sting grenade. Guaranteed massive damage + "stun" >>>>> 50% stun with no damage. It takes some ugprades/perks to get the radius up enough to hit enough men, but once you're there: damn, son. I even just toss it on one enemy sometimes because it's like a "delete enemy" button.

[Goumindong]

Um, no, I would not. Not until they are high rank. Late game I'll take AP, sure, but at lower levels I want them landing hits.

5 aim will turn 1/20 non-100% shots from misses to hits, on average. 2 Armor pen guarantees one shot kills on many armored units. (and the units that your sharpshooters are most likely to have high aim against like robots).

Damage (especially damage against the most dangerous units) has always been more valuable than aim. And then, on top of that, sharpshooters get massive aim bonuses (stock, DGG, etc)

[nightwyrm]

Whether Tracer or AP is better probably depends on exactly where you are in the game. It's all about break points, right? If you're at the tech point where you can one shot something even with their armor, Tracer is better. If those 2 pips of armor is preventing that one shot, AP is probably better.

[trihero]

Armor pen does nothing on units without armor, and there are much more unarmored targets especially in the early game. Not quite sure why you're so willing to overlook that, while aim helps on everything. AP rounds is like paying mobility for zero damage on a lot of targets, sounds like the worst deal ever to me. I'm not saying AP rounds are bad at all, just questioning the logic behind hating tracers but loving AP rounds that do nothing on half or more targets.

Sharpshooters even with the massive aim bonuses need help, especially early on when your items aren't that good yet, and also in those awkward but unfortunately common situations where you can't find convenient high ground. 100% through high cover doesn't drop out of nowhere, and tracer rounds helps get there. And again, the targets I'm likely to hit with the sniper are typically unarmored ones (sneks, engineers/rocketeers), so AP rounds do nothing. I'll let the shotguns/canons do the talking on mutons/bullet sponges.

Also, AP rounds get devalued if you use a lot of grenadiers to shred armor, which is a reasonable tactic although not employed by everyone.

[UraniumOverdose]

Sting grenades are far superior to any grenade the PG can make.

A well placed incendiary grenade can be far superior to a sting grenade. Guaranteed massive damage + "stun" >>>>> 50% stun with no damage. It takes some ugprades/perks to get the radius up enough to hit enough men, but once you're there: damn, son. I even just toss it on one enemy sometimes because it's like a "delete enemy" button.

Even with the radius improvements, they still don't cover the area that flashbangs cover. I do like incendiaries though, don't get me wrong. I just love the fact that a support grenadier can both smoke and sting grenade in the same round, basically guaranteeing a damage free round (which is needed alot more often with the new mission objective mechanics. You cant always just burn down a pod and move on.)

[Arcalane]

Um, no, I would not. Not until they are high rank. Late game I'll take AP, sure, but at lower levels I want them landing hits.

5 aim will turn 1/20 non-100% shots from misses to hits, on average. 2 Armor pen guarantees one shot kills on many armored units. (and the units that your sharpshooters are most likely to have high aim against like robots).

Damage (especially damage against the most dangerous units) has always been more valuable than aim. And then, on top of that, sharpshooters get massive aim bonuses (stock, DGG, etc)

I don't use stocks on most of my sharpshooters - I want shots out there now, and an enemy dead now, before it can act. Strike first, strike hard, don't get struck back.

Whether Tracer or AP is better probably depends on exactly where you are in the game. It's all about break points, right? If you're at the tech point where you can one shot something even with their armor, Tracer is better. If those 2 pips of armor is preventing that one shot, AP is probably better.

Pretty much. Early on AP is pointless because most goons lack armour, but later when most enemies are throwing around 2-3 points after Tac DEs and you may not have enough explosives to shred everyone (I need to shred that sectopod's 6AP over some other guy's 3AP) it becomes more useful.

[trihero]

I agree sting radius and launch distance is far superior, but if you can get a good conceal ambush, incendiary is all you need to get all the important targets locked down and rekt hard. It's a grenade worth researching and a notable exception to the "all the grenades in the PG suck" rule.

I'm a little on the fence about the support grenadier lately. I used it extensively in this campaign and liked it a lot early on; I do NOT like them for network tower missions where I prefer an all out offensive kill them all while stunned strategy. That being said STING and upgraded smoke are utterly disgusting in prolonged encounters. You really have to make sure your other guys are packed with offensive abilities to make use of the time (for instance in a small squad if you have a support grenadier, I cringe if I also have a specialist because where's my "these things die now!" soldier?), or else you just wind up using more flashbangs every turn to try to relock the situation down until you're out.

I've been thinking lately about next time not picking ghost grenade, but instead volatile mix to extend smoke/STINGs to unheard of radii, and as well as possibly finally get that frost grenade out of the dusty locker. I typically find my shinobi doesn't have that hard of a time staying concealed, and they get reconcealment as a skill, so maybe ghost grenade needs to go out the door for even more coverage on those defensive grenades.

[Goumindong]

Um, no, I would not. Not until they are high rank. Late game I'll take AP, sure, but at lower levels I want them landing hits.

5 aim will turn 1/20 non-100% shots from misses to hits, on average. 2 Armor pen guarantees one shot kills on many armored units. (and the units that your sharpshooters are most likely to have high aim against like robots).

Damage (especially damage against the most dangerous units) has always been more valuable than aim. And then, on top of that, sharpshooters get massive aim bonuses (stock, DGG, etc)

I don't use stocks on most of my sharpshooters - I want shots out there now, and an enemy dead now, before it can act. Strike first, strike hard, don't get struck back.

Whether Tracer or AP is better probably depends on exactly where you are in the game. It's all about break points, right? If you're at the tech point where you can one shot something even with their armor, Tracer is better. If those 2 pips of armor is preventing that one shot, AP is probably better.

Pretty much. Early on AP is pointless because most goons lack armour, but later when most enemies are throwing around 2-3 points after Tac DEs and you may not have enough explosives to shred everyone (I need to shred that sectopod's 6AP over some other guy's 3AP) it becomes more useful.

DFA is worth 15 to 40+ aim... And 15-25 crit if you have a stock. So uhh yea you should use stocks. You don't have to use them on your first shot but yea man you should use them.

Edit: I would edit to say that it's indeed very valuable on snapshot snipers. But I rarely build those

[Hazelnut]

I've been thinking lately about next time not picking ghost grenade, but instead volatile mix to extend smoke/STINGs to unheard of radii, and as well as possibly finally get that frost grenade out of the dusty locker. I typically find my shinobi doesn't have that hard of a time staying concealed, and they get reconcealment as a skill, so maybe ghost grenade needs to go out the door for even more coverage on those defensive grenades.

That seemed like such a no-brainer to me that I have never actually chosen ghost grenade yet. All get volatile mix.

[Elfich]

For me (admitted on rookie mode)
Straight out of gate when the PG is first built:
Nanovest or hazmat vest - immediate HP gain and stacks with ceramics. I like the plates and armor vest, but they aren't available straight out of the gate.

Suppressors - after the first one they are cheap and help infiltration time.
Enlarged magazines - everyone having an extra shot per clip adds up to extra actions. Save the elite magazines for the gunners.

AP Round - unless you luck out in the AWC lottery getting a consistent source of shredding can be hard to come by early in the game. Early enemies don't have more than 2 points of armor so sticking AP on a ranger helps with consistent damage.
Talon rounds - like already said above - stick them on your assaults.

I acknowledge that weapon upgrades (scopes, lasers, stocks) are black hole to throw money in. But if you are trying to increase team count, everyone needs scope, lasers, autoloaders, enlarged magazines, etc you are going to keep consuming resources in this area. Every time you add another team you are going to need another thirty slots worth of weapon enhancers (assuming team of ten so you can roll people on and off of the injury list and have flexibility for improve teams). I am assuming after a point you are trying to keep your teams in the field and not holding any in the barn (thus committing weapons, upgrades, etc to missions).

[LordYanaek]

DFA is worth 15 to 40+ aim... And 15-25 crit if you have a stock. So uhh yea you should use stocks. You don't have to use them on your first shot but yea man you should use them.

Edit: I would edit to say that it's indeed very valuable on snapshot snipers. But I rarely build those

Is it so hard to understand that not everyone plays the same way and that it's an incredibly good point for XCom2 and LW2 to allow different "optimal" strategies? I for one like DFA snipers with stocks and also give them AP rounds but they have their own issues, beginning with huge map dependencies (if you can't find a good high ground, they kind of "suck") so i can understand other players prefer more generalist builds like a quick holo build so stocks aren't that great. In such cases and if they fire mostly on the annoying hard to hit "softies" +5 AIM is useful and 2 armor piercing useless so sure they will use Tracer or nothing but won't take a -1 mobility just for fun or that once every 15 missions they have to fire at a drone because the specialist failed his 98% shutdown.

Different players, different playstyles, different priorities. LW2 is rich enough to allow multiple strategies and i find this great

[Manifest]

Just bear in mind some enemies somewhat ignore the burning state, like archons and berserkers afaik.

Specifically, burning does not stop units from meleeing. So burning chrissys, mutons, lancers etc. should be regarded cautiously.

[trihero]

I thought burning does stop melee units from meleeing, with the exception being units that can ONLY melee. Thus faceless can still melee while burned but stun lancers can't.

[Manifest]

I thought burning does stop melee units from meleeing, with the exception being units that can ONLY melee. Thus faceless can still melee while burned but stun lancers can't.

Perhaps so. I've only personally seen it with berserkers, so it could be.

[trihero]

I also thought that lids are an exception to the exception in that if you burn them, they can't attack at all, but I haven't burned a lid recently.

[Goumindong]

I thought burning does stop melee units from meleeing, with the exception being units that can ONLY melee. Thus faceless can still melee while burned but stun lancers can't.

I have seen burning units attack in melee but never seen one hit. Or if they have I don't recall.

[Alketi]

Just built my first Proving Ground -- can someone explain how the weapon upgrades (scope/stock/etc) work?

3x of the item are needed to research.

-- Are those 3 consumed or do you get them back when finished?

-- Once the research is completed, what level of item can be constructed? Basic/Advanced/Elite?

Thanks.

[Daergar]

I thought burning does stop melee units from meleeing, with the exception being units that can ONLY melee. Thus faceless can still melee while burned but stun lancers can't.

Had an Archon surprise me with a big staff hit when I thought him handled.

[Daergar]

Just built my first Proving Ground -- can someone explain how the weapon upgrades (scope/stock/etc) work?

3x of the item are needed to research.

-- Are those 3 consumed or do you get them back when finished?

-- Once the research is completed, what level of item can be constructed? Basic/Advanced/Elite?

Thanks.

Consumed, then you can build the level of which you spent three. So you have to repeat the process three times to be able to build elite items.

Which is well worth it, running full elite suppressors, scopes/sights, magazines and loaders on every soldier makes all the difference.