Good PG Projects

[nightwyrm]

So after my blunder with the Nanomedikit project, I was just wondering what projects are people prioritizing? There are so many choices and ammo types, which ones are you guys finding most useful or useless?

[GavinRuneblade]

Except for the skulljack and skullmine I haven't built any. Costs are all too high compared to my resources available.

[trihero]

Most useful: weapon mods (finally everyone can get those damned extended magazines, reloaders, suppressors, with scopes/hair triggers depending on spec), incendiary grenade, advanced explosives, incendiary bomb, plasma grenade. I never regret any of these for one second. Stocks/laser sights are lowest priority but can creep up depending on troop composition. Reloaders are surprisingly universally good; I've lost battles because I didn't equip some since it forces you to reload at inopportune moments otherwise.

Moderately useful: dragon round, but this is super high tier, skullmining is ok'ish if you like hacking rewards, (skulljack itself is required to not lose the game), stiletto round (+2 damage to organic enemies), alloy plating/chiting plating if you have the spare resources to upgrade everyone's ablative armor sets

Least useful: everything else is actually very situational/garbage

As far as ammo goes, I find that AP rounds and tracer rounds (which only require extremely rudimentary research and not even proving grounds projects), are actually sufficient and good enough for most cases. AP rounds is about +2 damage on tough targets, and sadly this is comparable with all the specialized ammo (stiletto only works on organics, AP rounds are good for robots and mutons alike, and elite advent all carry 1 armor point as well). Some specialized ammo goes up to +3 (bluescreen) but for a very select few enemies.

Incendiary grenade is hella good, and you should take volatile mix on your grenadier and also upgrade to advanced nade launchers and incendiary bombs when possible to make its radius not suck.

[GavinRuneblade]

Incendiary grenade is hella good, and you should take volatile mix on your grenadier and also upgrade to advanced nade launchers and incendiary bombs when possible to make its radius not suck.

Ever since (I think it was you) explained that incendiaries are guaranteed to burn. not "often" like the tooltip in game claims, I have planned to finally try them.

[Daergar]

As mentioned, incendiary grenades, especially on a high-ranking grenadier ( 1 or 2 tile radius depending on perks, up from 0), with high damage and guaranteed burn is the staple on every squad I ever run, even if it's just a small 4man strike.

One incendiary can tie up the toughest non-mechanical unit for many rounds, make it move for overwatch shots and usually kill it in the end regardless. The gravy is catching three mutons with this. Just bear in mind some enemies somewhat ignore the burning state, like archons and berserkers afaik.

You can do specific combos, such as red-screen rounds to suddenly make haywiring that mech or whatever much easier for the cost of one item slot. Something which is very nice if you enjoy having a heavy mech up in front during a hq mission or a hunter drone luring out pods for your overwatch traps.

Gunner having any type of ammo, like venom rounds, can be great for saturation fire. Assault or sharpshooter using Talon rounds for extra crit chance is a personal favorite, since it absolutely sucks when you fail those rolls.

That said, as mentioned, AP rounds are rather staple and overpowered for their cost. I'd see them as penetrating one armor, not two, to be balanced, but that's me. At least they are fixing the stim kits, which are horribly broken at the moment.

[Devon_v]

Tac vests are very good as one of the few sources of Armor for troops. Also keep in mind the costs are only for the prototypes. Afterwards Shen makes the rest instantly and cheaper.

The E.X.O. suit is worth it for the extra blammo.

Gas Grenades have a large radius, ignore armor, and debuff living enemies in addition to the damage over time. They are fantastic to drop on to an ADVENT 8-pod or group of Mutons. IMO they're far more useful than incendiaries before you get stacked +AoE abilities.

[nightwyrm]

Anyone find all the ammo types useful? Some of them seems too situational - non-robot Advent only, biological aliens only, etc. It seems just the regular old AP or Poison ammo is most widely applicable.

[trihero]

Anyone find all the ammo types useful? Some of them seems too situational - non-robot Advent only, biological aliens only, etc. It seems just the regular old AP or Poison ammo is most widely applicable.

Stiletto (biological) is all right. Most enemies you fight are biological. Giving +2 biological to your hail of bullet gunners goes a long way to having them snipe those sneks and rocketeers.

Talon is also workable. When shotguns don't crit it feels like a disaster so I would consider giving that to them. I have also recently begun to experiment with ranger crit overwatch builds, and it seems ok too (the idea is instead of scopes, use laser sights on assault rifles since most of their overwatch shots are hitting flanked targets to really up the chance of a critical).

Venom to me is a step below stiletto; venom doesn't affect sneks or chysallids.

I think there is some potential in giving blue screens to hail of bullet gunners to snipe codexes in one shot, although they are nowhere near as good as in vanilla.

[Arcalane]

Anyone find all the ammo types useful? Some of them seems too situational - non-robot Advent only, biological aliens only, etc. It seems just the regular old AP or Poison ammo is most widely applicable.

Stiletto (biological) is all right. Most enemies you fight are biological. Giving +2 biological to your hail of bullet gunners goes a long way to having them snipe those sneks and rocketeers.

Problem is there's two types of anti-bio; Stiletto and Needle. Stiletto is anti-alien and requires Faceless Auto/Corpse, Needle is anti-ADVENT and requires Shieldbearer Auto/Corpse. I feel like the two could be merged and nothing of value would be lost.

Of the two, I'd say Stiletto definitely seems like it'd be more useful late-game once more, tougher aliens start showing up. It's also oddly easier to get ahold of and make in larger quantities, given how faceless corpses are fairly easy to get ahold of through RV missions.

[trihero]

Problem is there's two types of anti-bio; Stiletto and Needle. Stiletto is anti-alien and requires Faceless Auto/Corpse, Needle is anti-ADVENT and requires Shieldbearer Auto/Corpse. I feel like the two could be merged and nothing of value would be lost.

Hmm, oh, advent aren't aliens? So stiletto doesn't hurt them? I honestly haven't paid attention, all I remember were stiletto were bugged in 1.0 when I tried them and didn't even damage vipers/sectoids.

[Arcalane]

The PG projects imply as much;


vs


Stiletto rounds are slightly more expensive, but I'd wager you'll get access to them sooner thanks to RV missions dropping faceless corpses. If it works against both aliens and ADVENT that's great but it also makes Needle rounds completely redundant.

[trihero]

That's not the answer I was looking for, guess I'll have to test it.

In my mind, advent are aliens, so when I see nonrobotic aliens I would include advent in there (if the argument is advent is human dna, well remember that sectoids are human dna as well, and probs faceless themselves). And it would make sense since faceless corpses are supposed to be kind of rare.

Edit: tested, you're right, stiletto doesn't work on advent. Guess they're not aliens? I took a conventional smg with stiletto rounds and ran around and shoot some advent, and I got a roll of 2 that was a nongraze, which is impossible if stiletto provided +2 against them. I did correctly get +2 against things like chrysallids, codexes, sectoids.

That devalues stiletto greatly in my eyes since advent is usually like half of the biological things you see. Welp those faceless corpses are going to feed my elerium addiction for sure then, and back to AP rounds all day every day.

[GavinRuneblade]

That devalues stiletto greatly in my eyes since advent is usually like half of the biological things you see. Welp those faceless corpses are going to feed my elerium addiction for sure then, and back to AP rounds all day every day.

So are venom rounds the only ones that have a possibility for more than +2 damage (Regardless of how many unit types are affected)?

[Goumindong]

That devalues stiletto greatly in my eyes since advent is usually like half of the biological things you see. Welp those faceless corpses are going to feed my elerium addiction for sure then, and back to AP rounds all day every day.

So are venom rounds the only ones that have a possibility for more than +2 damage (Regardless of how many unit types are affected)?

Dragon rounds might. Also blue screen can be +3 sometimes iirc.

Really though special ammo is not very valuable with the exception of

1) dragon: because burning shuts off abilities: AoE focused gunners only
2) venom: because poison lowers aim and mobility: AoE focused gunners only
3) AP: because it's +2 damage to units with armor... Almost universally the most dangerous units in the game across all types.
4) talon: because it synergizes with some crit builds.

Edit: talon is lategame only, because you need units with the proper synergy skills. But once you have those skills it dominates AP. Dragon is lategame only by research. Venom is something that can be researched early. And is very powerful in the hands of a gunner. Opening up with venom round Iron Curtain is like opening up with a super flashbang that deals damage.

[trihero]

Bluescreen is +3, and dragon is like venom with the potential of extra damage over time.

[Arcalane]

Shouldn't Venom's poison grant a small DoT effect too? Judging by gas bombs though it's probably only 1pt, whereas I think Dragon can be 2-3 if you're lucky?

Edit: tested, you're right, stiletto doesn't work on advent. Guess they're not aliens? I took a conventional smg with stiletto rounds and ran around and shoot some advent, and I got a roll of 2 that was a nongraze, which is impossible if stiletto provided +2 against them. I did correctly get +2 against things like chrysallids, codexes, sectoids.

That devalues stiletto greatly in my eyes since advent is usually like half of the biological things you see. Welp those faceless corpses are going to feed my elerium addiction for sure then, and back to AP rounds all day every day.

I mean if you think about it, it makes sense. ADVENT are genetically engineered human clonetroopers, they're still predominantly human with some alien bits mixed in -- unlike Sectoids, which have had human DNA mixed in.

AP definitely seems like the way to go for general purpose ammo, lategame. Tracer early on when your troops can't aim so well.

[LordYanaek]

Something i haven't seen mentioned are tactical vests. The +4 health/+1 armor isn't horrible and easily compensates the lack of armor on an exo suit. This allows you to trade a grenade for the much better shredder gun without sacrificing your survivability. Obviously not for mass production but i find they can be useful on a a couple soldier.
I would skip alloy plating's measly +1 ablative over ceramic and try to get to chitin directly if i want more ablative protection. Alloy plating comes at a time where supplies are really rare.

[Poobah]

Great -> Venom Rounds, Gas Grenades+Bombs - Poison is super strong. Incendiary Grenades+Bombs - Burning is super strong. Plasma Grenades + Advanced Grenades - grenade launcher upgrade gives your grenades more radius which is great and plasma grenades do more damage and destroy cover a bit better and are just all around a solid upgrade to a core component of pretty much all my squads. Smoke Bombs - I like not getting hit, I like smoke, therefore I like better smoke.

Good -> Dragon, Tracer, AP Rounds - widely applicable though dragon rounds come very late burning is crazy good, tracer rounds are really good early on and I continued to use them on my snipers for a long time. As time wears on almost every enemy in the game ends up with at least 1 point of armour which makes AP rounds pretty much a flat +1-2 damage vs everything. I jumped on any plating upgrades as well as the tac vests too, more ablative hp and armour on my troops means less wounds and thus a stronger roster able to complete more missions, gain more exp and get even stronger manifesting a nice positive feedback loop.

Decent / Situational - Blue/Redscreen, Chameleon Suits, Talon Rounds - Talon should probably be up a tier but I was hesitant to say that it's good for everyone. If you have a solid assault I would say it's essential though, crits are the lifeblood of my assault cops. Chameleon Suits are situational and I only ever made the one but they allow a single shinobi to infil almost instantly and I've also occasionally used them on solo specialists for very rapid infils too; basically these open up the possibility of running more, lower infil timer stealth missions - the extra time added by larger squad sizes doesn't really make them applicable for squeezing an extra squad member on a mission though, either that person is gonna fit in the timer or they aren't and a fancy suit won't help. The anti mech ammo I never really used, I tend to think AP is basically a better version of bluescreen since all mechs have armour but so do other enemies too and redscreen... I tend to only hack drones to use as ghetto mimic beacons and if I'm doing that I don't want them damaged first.

Garbage - Medkits, all the weapon upgrade stuff, anything I forgot to mention - generally a massive waste of supplies, the upgrades in particular are both plentiful as drops in missions and will drain a ton of supplies if you try and make a bunch.

Just my opinions of course, ymmv.

[Sines]

Not enough love for Venom Rounds. On anything not immune to poison, you're not only guaranteed to get +2 poison damage (one from the bonus damage, and at least one DoT proc before they act), poison is a fairly good status effect. Besides limiting mobility and aim, it also locks down most special abilities. Now, there's a small chance for it to wear off immediately (I understand it's something like 20%) after a single damage tick, but most of the time, you've soft CC'd the alien you hit for the next turn. Sure, it's not as reliable as a disorient or anything else, but you don't have to use any limited resources to inflict it. There's no cooldown.

I like to give them to Rangers. One regular shot against an easy to hit enemy, and one Walk Fire shot against something else. Good odds you'll soft-CC two enemies and do solid damage to them. And you can repeat this every single turn, limited only by your ammo count (but I tend to give Rangers Expanded Magazines and Auto-Loaders, so this isn't all that bad).

Sounds like Dragon Rounds are the upgraded version, but as has been said, they're late game. AP Rounds do more damage when you need it, but the soft control that can be exercised by Venom Rounds does a lot of good in keep you safe from enemies. Besides, AP Rounds don't often make the difference between 1 or 2 shotting an enemy, but Venom Rounds do often make the difference between an enemy launching a grenade, and firing a low hit-chance shot.

[Arcalane]

Something i haven't seen mentioned are tactical vests. The +4 health/+1 armor isn't horrible and easily compensates the lack of armor on an exo suit. This allows you to trade a grenade for the much better shredder gun without sacrificing your survivability. Obviously not for mass production but i find they can be useful on a a couple soldier.
I would skip alloy plating's measly +1 ablative over ceramic and try to get to chitin directly if i want more ablative protection. Alloy plating comes at a time where supplies are really rare.

Most of the vest projects are pretty solid, so I figure most people kind of automatically do them when possible anyway. I actually find myself investing in the occasional Hazmat vest now -- because they grant +3 HP on top of the fire/acid/poison resists. Being able to nosell most control effects the AI is throwing at you is often just as good as hitting them with control effects.

Plus acid damage absolutely ruins armour points. All acid grenades are Shred 3 at minimum (Shred 4 for acid bombs) without counting various perks, so it's not a bad thing to put on your heavy units either; Andromedons and the highest-tier ADVENT Grenadiers have strong acid attacks, whilst mid-tier ADVENT Grenadiers get access to incendiaries.

Then there's poison, which we've already covered. Viper spit can't miss and persists for a while. Remember how Thin Men loved to spam that shit back in EU/EW? Yeah. Speaks for itself.

[LordYanaek]

Are those rounds 100% chance to apply their effect or less? In vanilla it wasn't guaranteed. If the effect is always applied they are indeed quite good, but if it's only a chance, less so.
Poison effect can be countered by equipping a medikit with the added bonus of healing your comrades and so far i haven't encountered many fire and no acid so Hazmat have been delayed due to more pressing concerns but yes, i guess they can become good once Andromedons appear.

[trihero]

I'm pretty fascinated by the idea of iron curtain with venom rounds. I wonder if the poison is 100% applied to all targets (I know for instance, that faceoff doesn't always apply the debuffs to all hit targets). That is a ton of movement reduction, taking them to low single digits of movement points. They might not even be able to scamper more than one tile....?

For ranger overwatch specs, I'm finding talon rounds + laser sight very very appealing. Rapid reaction effectiveness is greatly hindered when you can't one shot an enemy, and critting goes a long way to getting those one shots. You get a lot of overwatch shots on flanked targets (+40% crit), then +10% from cool under pressure you're already at 50% crit on overwatch shots. Talons (+10) and laser sight (+15) take you into the "reasonably dependable" critical chance zone of 75%.

Venom rounds imo are overrated, the "+2" damage is split in different turns allowing for weird shenanigans like faceless/avatar healing, or the difference between you one shotting or not (like if you bring a unit to 1 hp, your second rapid reaction shot will be "wasted" on the 1 hp even though it would have died from the poison dot). Critical organic units are immune to it (chrysallids, sneks, effing sneks). I want those sneks under control damn it, and venom rounds isn't doing it.

I will say they are totally awesome though for hunting alien rulers, and I am very intrigued by iron curtain + venom rounds for a generic opening on advent 8 pods especially since sat fire is getting nerfed.

[trihero]

Good -> Dragon, Tracer, AP Rounds -

Tracer and AP rounds aren't PG projects! You get them from hybrid materials/basic trooper autopsy.

[Goumindong]

Good -> Dragon, Tracer, AP Rounds -

Tracer and AP rounds aren't PG projects! You get them from hybrid materials/basic trooper autopsy.

Also tracer rounds aren't good. 5 aim for a slot is bad. You could put smoke or a grenade there. Or AP rounds or literally nothing and gain the mobility.

Edit: Venom rounds. Yea, not generally good. Just good on Gunners, since they're going to shoot a whole bunch and while they do do lots of damage, their primary purpose is control. Dragon rounds obviously better, but you can't get dragon rounds as soon as you can get venom.

[nightwyrm]

Good -> Dragon, Tracer, AP Rounds -

Tracer and AP rounds aren't PG projects! You get them from hybrid materials/basic trooper autopsy.

Even better then!!