Officer abilities

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Undershaft
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:18 pm

Officer abilities

Post by Undershaft »

Maybe this is obvious, has already been covered and I'm just a lousy forum searcher, but here it goes.

1) Oscar Mike vs Focus Fire. Seems to be a no-brainer. Focus Fire for every officer except Shinobi mini-striketeam leaders who may need to induce some extra speed into a comrade to make it to the extraction zone.

2) Incoming! vs Get Some. I always take Icoming because it is nice to have some extra insurance for encounters with Mechs, Rocketeers and their kind. As it is a green action, you can just activate it without losing a step, and it is reusable. Maybe take Get Some for officers specialised in shorter missions or massive stealth ambushes on troop columns?

3) Fall Back vs Jammer. I'd argue for Fall Back here. Always nice to know that you can partially remedy a reckless yellow move or end-of-the-turn-pod-reveal (which you should have avoided in the first place, of course, but few people are perfect) without wasting a Command point. Also, it's a free action and reusable. I sometimes do wish I could delay reinforcements a bit, but in many cases, the extra turn wouldn't make them much less inconvenient.

4) Lead by Example vs Collector. I take Collector, because extra Intel never hurts (even though somebody pointed out that you don't get *that* much out of it in the course of one game) and Specialists (who are my preferred officer class) usually don't have the exquisite stats that would make a real difference when leading their peers (except maybe while training a low level squad).
Taking Lead by Example would make way more sense, of course, if your officer were a ranger or other dedicated shooter. But I invest in officers mainly for their active skills, and those are wasted on soldiers who should shoot, shoot, shoot whenever they can. Maybe a matter of playstyle and taste.

5) Fire Discipline vs Defilade. A tough one. Fire Discipline for officers specialised in massive stealth ambushes, probably, Defilade for those leading Golden Path missions and 0% supply raids.

6) Air Controller vs Infiltrator. An easy choice. Air Controller for a single retaliaton expert, Infiltrator for everybody else.

7) Combined Arms vs Scavenger. Another tough one. Extra damage is, of course, the opposite of something you'd ever sneeze at. But, as somebody pointed out in another topic, Alloys and Elerium are in short supply and you really want to get as much as you can. So I'll take Scavenger, except maybe for the master officer who leads the decisive missions.
trihero
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Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: Officer abilities

Post by trihero »

6) Air Controller vs Infiltrator. An easy choice. Air Controller for a single retaliaton expert, Infiltrator for everybody else.
I was not able to get air controller to work on retaliation missions (the evac timer was not affected for me); apparently you have success with this, how did you do it?
nightwyrm
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:52 pm

Re: Officer abilities

Post by nightwyrm »

Undershaft wrote: 3) Fall Back vs Jammer. I'd argue for Fall Back here. Always nice to know that you can partially remedy a reckless yellow move or end-of-the-turn-pod-reveal (which you should have avoided in the first place, of course, but few people are perfect) without wasting a Command point. Also, it's a free action and reusable. I sometimes do wish I could delay reinforcements a bit, but in many cases, the extra turn wouldn't make them much less inconvenient.
Reddit tells tales of Fall Back soldiers moving forward leaving himself flanked and triggering new pods.
Undershaft
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Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: Officer abilities

Post by Undershaft »

trihero wrote: I was not able to get air controller to work on retaliation missions (the evac timer was not affected for me); apparently you have success with this, how did you do it?
I didn't - just theorizing a bit. I never got around to building that dedicated retaliation expert, because I had to start a third campaign and am only in mid July at the moment. My first run was full of mistakes, so I quit it, and even the second time around I was working on a lot of false assumptions, which lead to an unstoppable Avatar avalanche in early 2036. Picked up some great advice on this forum, some of it from you.
So Air Controller doesn't work? Has this been bug-reported yet?
Undershaft
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: Officer abilities

Post by Undershaft »

nightwyrm wrote:Reddit tells tales of Fall Back soldiers moving forward leaving himself flanked and triggering new pods.
I can imagine, I had one or two "Where the hell are you going?!?" scares myself, luckily without devastating consequences so far. However, I would still argue in favor of Fall Back!, since I only use it in dire emergencies, and these usually involve the soldier in question being flanked anyway. As for pulling even more enemies: That is a real possibility, of course. But in most cases, you will *probably* have pulled the single pod situated in a given direction and going a little bit further (which doesn't always happen; usually - or at least often - they will fall back to safe squares) in that direction will *probably* at least not worsen the situation.

I guess when you have the option, it would be safer to use Aid Protocol and/or smoke grenades to protect the reckless advancer or his victims. But having the option of an additional Fall Back still seems valuable to me. At the very least when you pull a mob with your third or fourth soldier whom you hadn't anticipated *could* reveal new enemies (I, for example, sometimes fail to consider possible aliens on the rooftops), leaving some poor comrade in the back who had yellow-moved into previously safe cover suddenly flanked from an unexpected direction, you can now get them out of the line of fire. And that option still seems more universally usable to me than delaying reinforcements for one turn. But I'm curious to hear what other players think of that.
Sorbicol
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:35 am

Re: Officer abilities

Post by Sorbicol »

Undershaft wrote:Maybe this is obvious, has already been covered and I'm just a lousy forum searcher, but here it goes.

1) Oscar Mike vs Focus Fire. Seems to be a no-brainer. Focus Fire for every officer except Shinobi mini-striketeam leaders who may need to induce some extra speed into a comrade to make it to the extraction zone.
Oscar Mike on Shinobi officers who specialise in "stealth" missions is extremely useful (to the point of being overpowered when coupled with Command) in getting VIPs to evac points without having to stop a long the way. It's very situational, but in the right circumstances it's extremely powerful indeed - been the difference between me passing some extract missions flawlessly or suffering a total failure. It's not to be underestimated.

Useless for pretty much any other mission type though, or an officer with the movement rate of a sleepy sloth.
trihero
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by trihero »

I didn't - just theorizing a bit. I never got around to building that dedicated retaliation expert, because I had to start a third campaign and am only in mid July at the moment. My first run was full of mistakes, so I quit it, and even the second time around I was working on a lot of false assumptions, which lead to an unstoppable Avatar avalanche in early 2036. Picked up some great advice on this forum, some of it from you.
So Air Controller doesn't work? Has this been bug-reported yet?
-5 for not testing (but it's ok, we all say things without testing). I don't think it is a bug, it clearly says reduces evac time placed by flares. You don't place flares on retal missions.

Also, I always pick the +1 damage combined arms. As long as you are (ab)using supply raids, you should never run out of elerium/alloys. Even if supply raids weren't so abusable, I'm not sure I would pick the +30% elerium/alloys because it comes so late in the game you might not get a lot of use out of it, but at least +1 damage is going to help on those final missions.
Undershaft
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: Officer abilities

Post by Undershaft »

trihero wrote: I don't think it is a bug, it clearly says reduces evac time placed by flares. You don't place flares on retal missions.
Well, at least on the officer school screen it says "The Skyranger will arrive 2 turns sooner during evacuations". I narrowly interpreted that as only applying to that one retaliation mission where you have to evacuate a haven and wait many turns for the Skyranger to arrive, which, admittedly, would make it a *very* specific skill to have, hence my considering it an easy choice. Those evacuations were happening a *lot* during my second campaign, though, due to faulty haven management, so my assumption was not totally ridiculous. Technically speaking, I'd even say that the term "evacuation" really only applies to those kinds of missions, since you can evacuate a building or settlement, like a haven, and not a random mission. So if it is meant to include any situation where you place a flare, it should rather say "The Skyranger will arrive 2 turns sooner during extractions". If retaliations aren't even included, they should definitely use *your* phrasing, not the one they have at the moment.

But now that I think about it, your troopers really do say "Need an evac" all the time, so you are right, of course, which makes the ability much more universal and useful. I'm now asking myself if that makes it a true alternative to Infiltrator. On the spot, I'd still say no, since I rarely place my flares so late or finish missions so long before I run out of turns that it would be helpful. For a ninja team, perhaps, but then again, I don't see myself putting a Shinobi in officer school till he reaches Colonel, since all the skills after Oscar Mike don't really benfit this kind of team.
Jacke
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by Jacke »

nightwyrm wrote:Reddit tells tales of Fall Back soldiers moving forward leaving himself flanked and triggering new pods.
A fine example of the AI proving "There's fun. And then there's 'Dwarf Fortress' fun." Nothing like Squaddie Urist McWrongway scouting out the enemy the hard way. :)

Speaking of Fall Back not quite working as intended, I'd like to hear what's been the actual experience using the Officer perks. Does Incoming! make a difference, etc.

Also, how about which classes for them? In the past, I've followed trihero in going for 2Lt/LCpl Technicals for Haven Advisors and Shinobi's and Holotargeter Snipers for Squad officers. Most everyone else is rather busy on the battlefield. There's still the clash between small team stealth Shinobi officers who should have Oscar Mike and Squad officers who should have Focus Fire.

Another point. Is the Officer originally selected at mission start the only one who can use Officer perks, even if incapacitated, killed, or evacced, if there's another Officer present?
Alketi
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:11 pm

Re: Officer abilities

Post by Alketi »

nightwyrm wrote: Reddit tells tales of Fall Back soldiers moving forward leaving himself flanked and triggering new pods.
Yep. Xavier used it on one of his missions. His guy ran FORWARD. No thanks.
Undershaft
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: Officer abilities

Post by Undershaft »

Jacke wrote: Does Incoming! make a difference, etc.
I found Incoming very helpful, especially early on. Several times, I pulled a Mech I couldn't take out in my turn, so I activated Incoming. As expected, it fired its mortar/rockets/whatever at my guys. The damage was minimal to nonexistant. Once, a single soldier took a single wound, another time the whole squad just shrugged the barrage off without any harm. This is a really nice ability to have, in case shit hits the fan, especially since it's a free action and not limited to a single use. Meet a mech or rocketeer you can't kill? Yell "incoming!" for the very likely case they will bombard you and your soldiers will be more or less immune to that very dangerous threat. (If you are standing on a roof, a deerstand etc., they can of course still indirectly kill you with the power of gravity, though)
Also, how about which classes for them?
Hacking Specialists are not a bad choice, in my opinion. I want to bring one on every mission, due to hacking rewards, Aid Protocol, Haywire, Combat Protocol, Revival Protocol etc. Since I *also* want an officer on every mission, I thought: why not combine the two? Apart from that, their roles mix well, I think. Being part of the main squad, but at the back of it. Having an even larger bag of tricks to support your squadmates makes him incredibly versatile. Hacking, Revival and Aid Protocol - the classes core abilities - only take a single action, leaving you free to use Command or Focus Fire as your second.

At first, I thought I would use Technicals, to give them something to do when they aren't needed for the very special services the gauntlet provides. But then I found that *when* the gauntlet is needed, they have no options anymore and cannot do anything *but* gauntletting, sometimes out of command range from the squad. Also, as I learned on this forum recently, there is another way to make your Technicals more useful beyond flaming and rocketing: the pistol. As was convincingly argued by Goumindong, they are maybe the only class that really can and should afford to go the gunslinger's way.

Edit: Though now that I think of it, a holotargeter would also be sensible, since the two skillsets are equally compatible and he would provide superior Lead by Example bonuses as well. Both are fine choices, I guess. At the moment, I find the constant presence of a Specialist more useful, though.
trihero
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by trihero »

I'm pretty sure air controller tells you the "right" wording on the ? if you click it. I certainly did not make up the wording.

Shinobis are good choices for officers because the officer abilities do not break stealth. You almost always want a shinobi anyways, and it gives them something quite useful to do during concealment. Since you always want a shinobi, and you always want an officer, why not shinobi officer?

My stealth shinobis are all minimal ranked officers for oscar mic + command, and I have a "battle shinobi" who is a sword shinobi taking offensively oriented commander abilities. She's my go to for raids/HQs/retals.

I also have a holo targeter sharpshooter officer who can do fun things like rapid targeting + focus fire + get some all in the same turn, and the point of her is really to "lead by example" with 110 aim + fire discipline for overwatch massacres.

Specialist officers are ok, in my current run I don't have any but I could have spent some tube time converting them to officers once they ranked up from all the stealth missions. The one thing I don't like which I've mentioned many times before is if they outrank your stealth shinobi, then your stealth shinobi can't hand out Commands during stealth missions which is a major setback.

I like Get Some occasionally, although I agree that Incoming is pretty useful for lots of mechs. Get Some I use to setup a rocket/grenade ambush, and sometimes when I'm facing units with a lot of dodge to help penetrate it. Fall Back I kind of like but I don't like it when they go "forwards" so I pick up Jammer to help a bit with RNF missions.
Undershaft
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by Undershaft »

trihero wrote: Shinobis are good choices for officers because the officer abilities do not break stealth. You almost always want a shinobi anyways, and it gives them something quite useful to do during concealment. Since you always want a shinobi, and you always want an officer, why not shinobi officer?
That is a convincing argument. Huh. Never really considered shinobis as officers for non-stealth missions. What might have blocked that path of thought for me was that the shinobi is not always close to the squad and I had decided that was mandatory. They are, admittedly, usually close enough to use Command and Focus Fire. And when they are spotting for snipers, even better at using Focus Fire.

Another reason is that the majority of my shinobis is usually out on 2-3 day missions, which keeps them from being part of officer rotation for regular squads. I will consider them for my next campaign.
I'm pretty sure air controller tells you the "right" wording on the ? if you click it. I certainly did not make up the wording.
I should look at the ? more often, then. :?
JulianSkies
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by JulianSkies »

trihero wrote:
I didn't - just theorizing a bit. I never got around to building that dedicated retaliation expert, because I had to start a third campaign and am only in mid July at the moment. My first run was full of mistakes, so I quit it, and even the second time around I was working on a lot of false assumptions, which lead to an unstoppable Avatar avalanche in early 2036. Picked up some great advice on this forum, some of it from you.
So Air Controller doesn't work? Has this been bug-reported yet?
-5 for not testing (but it's ok, we all say things without testing). I don't think it is a bug, it clearly says reduces evac time placed by flares. You don't place flares on retal missions.

Also, I always pick the +1 damage combined arms. As long as you are (ab)using supply raids, you should never run out of elerium/alloys. Even if supply raids weren't so abusable, I'm not sure I would pick the +30% elerium/alloys because it comes so late in the game you might not get a lot of use out of it, but at least +1 damage is going to help on those final missions.
Of note here is that certain missions have an enforced minimum evac timer, I would image retaliations are like that so no matter what you do you have to stick a minimum number of turns around. That said, Air Controller would probably be useful for a solo infiltration shinobi, they already have microscopic infiltration timers, Air Controller makes it that much easier to get down to a 1-turn extraction.
nightwyrm
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by nightwyrm »

I never knew Incoming! was a free action. I have to try it out sometime. I just never took it coz I thought it took a real action and I prefer more proactive ways of shutting down MECs.
Tuhalu
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by Tuhalu »

For a combination faceless hunting & raid officer, I'd go:

Focus Fire - Get Some - Fall Back - Lead by Example - Fire Discipline - Infiltrator - Combined Arms

This also makes them good for Supply Raids, Troop Convoys and HQ assaults, due to their accuracy, damage and critical improving abilities that make pods melt as they come in. Fall Back is there for emergencies (and Jammer is entirely useless on the listed missions). Infiltrator just gives you that bit faster turn around on 100% infiltration missions and Air Controller is useless on those anyway.

For full on stealth missions:

Oscar Mike - Incoming! - Jammer - Lead By Example - Defilade - Air Controller - either

Everything you can do to make escapes safer and easier. The last tier is the only level that makes no difference.

For a primary supply raid/troop convoy farm officer:

Focus Fire - either - Fall Back - Collector - either - Infiltrator - Scavenger

If you are confident in your raid defeating abilities (swarming missions), then why not set up a single officer to farm them even more efficiently? The idea being to reduce the amount of pure intel missions you need to do and increasing the amount of end-game weapons and armor you can get.

----
Shinobi is generally the best officer choice, but I think other choices have their place.

For faceless hunting, Shinobi seem like the poorest choice. You want something that can kill enemies or lock them down without atuo-activating the second pod (the patrol is almost always in vision range of the main pod). Assaults are bad anti-faceless officers for similar reasons.

For raid missions, you want an officer that isn't activating cooldowns on every pull.
  • Specialist: Disqualified since you want them using double abilities as much as possible.
  • Ranger: Using both their actions for fighting always.
  • Gunners: Reloading and shooting/suppressing.
  • Grenadier: Damage Grenadiers with Full Kit are a prime target for Command, allowing you to start each pod with double grenade action. A support Grenadier might not be too bad since you can throw something out for free and still be able to Command.
  • Sharpshooter: Sniper Sharpshooters are killing and stocking, reloading or holotargetting. A holotargetting stealth sharpshooter is a possibility.
  • Assault: Stun gunner Assault is a possibility. They are locking things down every other turn with their stun, but in between they can focus on commands.
  • Shinobi: Stealth focused shinobi is probably the best option. You can position yourself just ahead of your battle line where you aren't seen and just spam commands as enemies come in.
  • Technical: A Rocket Technical is going to be busy rocketting things on the first 3 pods at most, but after the initial attacks they are left with not much to do but shoot and command. A Flamer Technical is too busy positioning and flaming.
Undershaft
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by Undershaft »

Tuhalu wrote: Specialist: Disqualified since you want them using double abilities as much as possible.
Shinobi: Stealth focused shinobi is probably the best option. You can position yourself just ahead of your battle line where you aren't seen and just spam commands as enemies come in.
I don't agree that the Specialist is disqualified here. Let's have a look at what an officer can do in combat and what a hacker specialist has to.

Officer abilities:
Command (limited uses)
Focus Fire (three turn cooldown)
Get Some (two uses)
Incoming, Fall Back (free actions)
Passive Bonuses

It is important to notice that these actions (with the exception of Focus Fire) and every passive squad boost require soldiers to be in command range or line of sight. So basically, an officer's job is this: Stay close to the squad for passive bonuses and command zone abilities, use Focus Fire every third turn (if at all needed) and use Command in moments of great opportunity or danger (1-4 times).

Hacker Specialist abilities:
Aid Protocol (only every other turn)
Combat Protocol (two uses)
Revival Protocol (situational)
Airdrop (two uses)
Haywire (only against mechanicals)

So the only regular activity a specialist does is provide cover with his Gremlin. Apart from that, he has a lot of uses, but all of them situational and most of them doable in a single action without ending his turn, like feeding the grenadeer some plasma to play with. I don't see anything here that would keep him from staying with his squad and using an occasional Focus Fire and/or Command when he needs to. Inversely, none of the officer abilities will hinder his class function in any significant way.

Shinobis, on the other hand, aren't *completely* free to sit on their hands, twiddle their thumbs and officer around as they please either. They have to move to avoid being spotted, pick up loot during the firefight before it vanishes, check for approaching pods and provide squadvision for snipers, sometimes requiring a yellow move. While this is possibly still better in many cases than having some white or blue abilities to activate on a semi-regular basis, as the specialist does, there is something else to consider: a shinobi's job might put him so far away from his squadmates that he can't fulfill one of his main officer duties in combat, which is staying within command range. More importantly, he might be out of sight of a soldier who desperately needs a command action.

I would define the "problem" as follows, then: An officer's job in combat is to keep an eye on his troops while a shinobi's is to keep an eye on the enemy. While these jobs aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, they *can* clash in some cases. I guess the question is which conflict of interests is more hindering. What is your experience in this matter?
Tuhalu
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by Tuhalu »

Undershaft wrote:
Tuhalu wrote: Specialist: Disqualified since you want them using double abilities as much as possible.
Shinobi: Stealth focused shinobi is probably the best option. You can position yourself just ahead of your battle line where you aren't seen and just spam commands as enemies come in.
I don't agree that the Specialist is disqualified here. Let's have a look at what an officer can do in combat and what a hacker specialist has to.

.. snip ..

I would define the "problem" as follows, then: An officer's job in combat is to keep an eye on his troops while a shinobi's is to keep an eye on the enemy. While these jobs aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, they *can* clash in some cases. I guess the question is which conflict of interests is more hindering. What is your experience in this matter?
For these missions, I tend to bring a Specialist with Guardian and plant him next to my Ranger with Rapid Reaction, giving me 5 overwatch shots as the enemy comes into view (hopefully I've snipered anything with Lightning Reflexes before they come into range of my overwatch trap). If you don't rely on overwatch traps as much, then this will raise the value of the Specalist as an Officer.

When a pod comes into view, I tend to either Aid Protocol and then Overwatch or Aid Protocol/get LOS and then Hack, depending on whether or not a Robot is in the pod. I can't be using command on that crucial first round, when I'd like to be making my Grenadier able to throw 2 out of his 8 grenades.

Finally, a Specialist who is a full Officer is a poor choice for stealth missions. By not making my raid Specialist an Officer, that's one more Specialist who can do a stealth mission well.

With the Shinobi on the other hand, I only need to be scouting and grabbing loot between pods. On most raid missions, I can position myself so as to know where the enemy is coming from and still be in range to give commands and apply my command range buffs during the crucial 1st round when the enemy is moving into range of my team. If I need to bring the Raid Officer Shinobi on a stealth mission, they can still do their job correctly.

A Shinobi is fairly capable of keeping his eye on his own troops and on the enemy at the same time. Especially in a raid type mission where there are no timers.
Undershaft
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by Undershaft »

Tuhalu wrote:For these missions, I tend to bring a Specialist with Guardian
I hadn't considered the overwatch specialist at all. Yes, that would be a valuable asset in a raid, I guess. Less of a bag of tricks, more of a slightly less-shooty ranger who can hack if needed. Do you bring a dedicated medic with Revival Protocol then? In that case, I assume you do without Combat Protocol, since you wouldn't bring three specialists and one of the two would have Medical Protocol and the other Cool under Pressure. Hmmm. I rather enjoy knowing that I can take out a single annoying enemy in full cover who survived my initial grenade barrage if need be - but then again, that could also be achieved by a gunner with Hail of Bullets.

Just noticed that I have been playing rather un-overwatchy recently. Also, equally unusual for me, I never take a medic this time around, but rely on non-gremlinized medkits. Haven't been punished for the lack of professional healing yet, but then again I'm only playing on veteran difficulty. Maybe the only strategies worth discussing, really, are those applicable to the higher difficulty levels. Do the legendary players always take medics on raids?

Also, I take it that you use Full Kit on your grenadeers? I make mine Combat Engineers, to provide a nice coverless wasteland around my position, so I rely on Air Drop to keep the plasma flowing, which is more in line with the hacker specialist. Ah, but Air Drop can also be taken by a Guardian, since it doesn't interfer with the overwatch skillset, I see. Huh. I love this game. So many options - at least on the lower difficulties.
Tuhalu
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Re: Officer abilities

Post by Tuhalu »

My specialist with Guardian doesn't even have any other overwatchy skills. She went Medical Protocol - Revival Protocol - Field Medic - Failsafe - Sentinel - Scanning Protocol - Full Override. I'd probably do that differently on another campaign. The medical stuff hasn't been terribly useful (except for the occasional Revival Protocol).

Anyway, even with just Sentinel, putting her in overwatch to catch repositioning advent feels strong. She still hits a lot with 79 aim and an Advanced Hair Trigger. I'd probably go with CuP - Revival Protocol - Air Drop - Failsafe - Sentinel - Threat Assessment - Full Override when I start another campaign. Buffs the overwatch capabilities a bit while still keeping important utilities.

As far as cover destruction goes, I rely on the Rocketeer and Gunners to deal with cover as necessary. 2 Rockets and a Bunker Buster can clear a wide field of fire in raids. Anything left over can be dealt with as things try to hide behind it.
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