Low Aim Rookies

Share strategy and tips here.
Ithuriel
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Low Aim Rookies

Post by Ithuriel »

...so what the hell do you guys do with low-aim rookies? Coming out of Gatecrasher I had 6 rookies at or below 61 aim, and 5 of those were under 59. ...I don't get what to do with them, really. Make a few into Assaults, sure, but against higher-tier enemies that aim penalty hurts hard, and besides they're all 15 or 14 mobility. Technicals are okay, although terrible rocket aim, and again they're not fast so flamethrower usage isn't great. Shinobis will simply miss their sword attacks. Grenadiers seem maybe okay? But again I'm reluctant because grenadiers have such severe mobility issues in keeping up with the squad. I've been told to make them gunners- but then A) They can't hit anything worth crap with normal fire (something about 71 aim as a MSgt being agonizing...) and B) aliens can simply run their overwatch and they'll never hit anything.

....plz send help >.< Does anybody have advice?
Jadiel
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:28 am

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Jadiel »

I make most of mine into Grenadiers. They always have SMGs, so I don't find the mobility thing particularly problematic.

If their aim and mobility are both bad, they might have really high hack skills? In which case, stealth specialist works well.

You can turn them into stealth mission shinobis if their mobility isn't terrible.

Finally, I have a lot of dead rookies on my wall. Most of them were sent in to distract the enemy while I extracted a scientist or some other important VIP. They don't need aim to be a distraction, just a couple of flashbangs.
Manifest
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:30 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Manifest »

Ithuriel wrote:...so what the hell do you guys do with low-aim rookies? Coming out of Gatecrasher I had 6 rookies at or below 61 aim, and 5 of those were under 59. ...I don't get what to do with them, really. Make a few into Assaults, sure, but against higher-tier enemies that aim penalty hurts hard, and besides they're all 15 or 14 mobility. Technicals are okay, although terrible rocket aim, and again they're not fast so flamethrower usage isn't great. Shinobis will simply miss their sword attacks. Grenadiers seem maybe okay? But again I'm reluctant because grenadiers have such severe mobility issues in keeping up with the squad. I've been told to make them gunners- but then A) They can't hit anything worth crap with normal fire (something about 71 aim as a MSgt being agonizing...) and B) aliens can simply run their overwatch and they'll never hit anything.

....plz send help >.< Does anybody have advice?
If they're low aim and low mobility I make them into shinobis. They don't need to be good at anything to be stealth shinobis, mobility isn't all THAT important to them. If they're low mobi, low aim then they should be high enough health so that you can make tank melee shino, if you have too many stealth. The arc blade is easy to get and gives +25, so aim isn't really an issue.

Gunner's unlock hail of Bullets and demolition relatively early, so they can take those actions quite a bit. Grazing Fire makes your suppression much more reliable and gets stronger the lower aim you have, now you don't have to worry about low hp enemies as much. With low aim and mobility you will have higher defense which is good for a suppressor.

Check their hack scores to make some specialists.

You also may just want to equip them as SMG Grenadiers without armor if they have high defensive stats.
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by trihero »

You got a lot of options for low aim:

-specialists
-shinobis
-grenadiers
-flame based technical

Considering you want about 3-4 pairs of stealth specialist/shinobi, that's an easy dump for 6-8 "garbage" rookies. There's nothing wrong with 14 or 15 mobility either. 13 starts to feel like it hurts. 15 is average. 14 is just slightly under. You won't die if you make them grenadiers. Grenadiers should be wearing SMG to make up for their mobility issues. Assuming a same baseline speed, grenadier with 4 used slots + SMG = -1 movement, faster than a non-grenadier with 2 used slots + non-smg = -2 movement. They have no problems keeping up with the team.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Goumindong »

They can also be assaults and gunners. Assaults get so much +aim from being close that the initial stat doesn't matter much*. Gunners can get a lot of +aim in the overwatch tree and grazing fire negates a lot of the need to have high aim as well.

*additionally the stun gun line provides a 20-30 aim bonus as well as value for when you miss.
User avatar
NoDebate
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:36 am

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by NoDebate »

If they have low stats all around, they likely have high Psi Offense. Max for NCE is 38.
marceror
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:47 am

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by marceror »

Low aim is usually going to be an assault for me. Still 100% hit chance against most things at point blank.
Ithuriel
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Ithuriel »

NoDebate wrote:If they have low stats all around, they likely have high Psi Offense. Max for NCE is 38.
Sadly, I did the bloody math... none of them have Psi Offence above 23. They all have high Defense values and high Will, which is sinking a lot of points; most have 5 hp too.
Goumindong wrote:They can also be assaults and gunners. Assaults get so much +aim from being close that the initial stat doesn't matter much*. Gunners can get a lot of +aim in the overwatch tree and grazing fire negates a lot of the need to have high aim as well.

*additionally the stun gun line provides a 20-30 aim bonus as well as value for when you miss.
Where do Gunners get aim in the overwatch tree? As far as I knew, gunners had the same crap +2 Aim/level growth as Shinobis and Assaults, and nothing else... do you just mean Lockdown? Which +15 aim is nothing to sniff at, but A) I'm pretty certain it's before the reaction shot aim penalty of 0.7, and B) it competes with Shredder and Hail of Bullets...
marceror wrote:Low aim is usually going to be an assault for me. Still 100% hit chance against most things at point blank.
Yeah, but what do you do when you have 5 guys in that aim bracket? Out of 20 soldiers you don't need 6 assaults (counting Gatecrasher) >.<
JackDT
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:07 am

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by JackDT »

In addition to the options here, also officers and haven advisors. Holo-targetting snipers. Certain gunner builds.
Manifest
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:30 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Manifest »

Ithuriel wrote:Where do Gunners get aim in the overwatch tree? As far as I knew, gunners had the same crap +2 Aim/level growth as Shinobis and Assaults, and nothing else... do you just mean Lockdown? Which +15 aim is nothing to sniff at, but A) I'm pretty certain it's before the reaction shot aim penalty of 0.7, and B) it competes with Shredder and Hail of Bullets...
Lockdown and CUP. Also the officer perk specifically dedicated to overwatch fire synergizes really well over the five defense perk.

I don't think anything that specifically buffs OW aim occurs before the 70% penalty.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Goumindong »

At LCPL grazing fire turns 50% of misses into grazes. With a 70 aim gunner this would provide an effective 12.5 aim on reaction shots (25% hits at half value). I am not certain but I think that grazes still apply special ammo. So if you've got poison or dragon rounds this is super effective.

At CPL Lockdown is +15. I am not sure but I think it applies after the General overwatch malus. Optionally hail of bullets is a guaranteed hit and so doesn't need aim (though I think that the lower the aim the better they are at suppressing due to grazing fire and lockdown and the more you should maximize that)

At SGT demolition is a guaranteed hit ability.

At TSGT Cool under Pressure is + 10 unfortunately it competes with the increased area suppression skill.

Hair trigger is +5-15 as well.

All in all the most important stats for a suppression gunner are a) defense b) dodge d) will e) mobility f) hit points g) aim h) hack score i) PSI offense.

Mobility is over HP because you can more easily trade mobility for HP in terms of vests than you can gain mobility. Defense is highest because shooting at the suppressing unit is a favorite of enemies and you want to minimize the probability of your area suppressing shutting off (dodge similarly has positive effects here because it will turn graze band hits into misses)
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Goumindong »

Ithuriel wrote: Yeah, but what do you do when you have 5 guys in that aim bracket? Out of 20 soldiers you don't need 6 assaults (counting Gatecrasher) >.<
Aim is quite possibly the least important stat in the game except on sharpshooters. Almost no one else is going to be primarily interested in shooting. (ok also good on technicals but not necessary)

You can literally make 5 gunners or 5 shinobis. Ok you might not quite use 5 gunners but you could probably get close. A squad of 5 gunners, technical, grenadier, and sharpshooter is not a bad heavy hitting squad in the least. (You could literally suppress everything forever as you methodically work your way down the line with hail of bullets and your sharpshooter (with grenadier for smoke and technical for cover clearing when necessary)

You will also easily use 5 shinobi over the course of the game simply by sticking one on every stealth mission (and sometimes regular missions) that pops up. Similarly you all have a lot of need for specialists in this role as well. Because you're going to be running smg (and literally nothing else except maybe a flash or smoke) you've got limited need for any stat except not a totally deficient mobility.
rookie.one
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by rookie.one »

i keep them for whatever purpose i need them, even if its a a 56 starting base ranger. first i use them until i can recruit better guys and train those and later on they can still become haven advisors. and if you dismiss that 10 hp, 13 movespeed, 64 aim ranger SGT in august, you won't care much about that aswell. most of my a team consists of guys i recruited late in the game or bought at the blackmarket at SGT or SSGT level.
User avatar
8wayz
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:59 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by 8wayz »

You are overthinking it.

Aim is really easy to improve and compensate for.

You have :
- Scopes and Hair triggers on weapons. There are Stocks as well.
- PCS on soldiers that grant Aim.
- Perks that grant Aim in certain situations, like the Suppression Gunner for example.
- Tracer Rounds (+5)
- Laser Weapons (+5)

Even a 57 Aim Sharpshooter can be highly accurate with a Scope + Stock + Tracer rounds.

Just look at the other stats and see what that they may be good at, as well as what you currently need
ebonyknight
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:47 am

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by ebonyknight »

Maybe I am missing something, but when you initially promote them, their "role" is randomized, right? How are you "making" them into a grenadier, shinobi or whatever?
Dwarfling
Posts: 524
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:16 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Dwarfling »

Low Aim and low Mobility usually means high HP and positive Dodge and Defense. I make some of these into a Kenshi Shinobis (if I feel like it) and consider them expendable goods but most end up as Saboteur (Scout) Shinobis if I can't get more of those sweet 16-17 mobility rookies. With the SMG, and only a Flashbang you can get enough mobility to do the scouting role, more if you give them +mobility armor.
nightwyrm
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:52 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by nightwyrm »

ebonyknight wrote:Maybe I am missing something, but when you initially promote them, their "role" is randomized, right? How are you "making" them into a grenadier, shinobi or whatever?
You can use the GTS...
Ithuriel
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Ithuriel »

8wayz wrote:Even a 57 Aim Sharpshooter can be highly accurate with a Scope + Stock + Tracer rounds.

Just look at the other stats and see what that they may be good at, as well as what you currently need
So curiosity- these recruits all have 14-15 mobility, and sky-high defensive stats. What would you put them into? Tbh I'm really hesitant to make them Kenshis, because when your Kenshi grazes or misses a target they tend to promptly die.
ebonyknight wrote:Maybe I am missing something, but when you initially promote them, their "role" is randomized, right? How are you "making" them into a grenadier, shinobi or whatever?
I built the GTS day 1 in my campaign because I highly value being able to chose my recruit's class.
Dwarfling wrote:I make some of these into a Kenshi Shinobis (if I feel like it)
See earlier- I get the reasoning, but I'm scared they'll die on their first missed slash.
Goumindong wrote:
Ithuriel wrote: Yeah, but what do you do when you have 5 guys in that aim bracket? Out of 20 soldiers you don't need 6 assaults (counting Gatecrasher) >.<
Aim is quite possibly the least important stat in the game except on sharpshooters. Almost no one else is going to be primarily interested in shooting. (ok also good on technicals but not necessary)
Wait what? I think it's arguably the most important stat in the game, by and large... there is only one class that truly doesn't rely on aim (grenadiers) and two that don't heavily rely on aim (technicals, assaults). I can see the argument that stealth shinobis don't need aim, but Swordmasters definitely do- both to make their choppy choppy reliable, and to ensure hits against high-defense aliens (also I really like training my stealth Shinobis into pistol skills, so I highly appreciate good aim on them- I've managed to run a Destroy the Monument mission with 2 stealth Shinobis, one heavily trained into pistols; they together wiped out 10 enemies including my first Archon and ADVENT took a total of 5 shots the entire mission). Rangers hands down live and die by their aim; Gunners have Hail of Bullets, but everything else they have relies on aim (if a gunner with 60 aim suppresses a target, the target just walks away and doesn't care). Snipers need decent aim though tbh it's less important than a Ranger; they get so many aim buffs they only need 65+ Aim. Specialists shoot fairly regularly, Assaults appreciate aim so they can shoot without being adjacent to the target as well as stungun people.

...wait now I think about it- does suppression end if they move? I thought it did, but that could be me being used to LW1.
User avatar
8wayz
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:59 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by 8wayz »

If they have good Defence and Dodge, make them Assaults and Suppression Gunners. Those are two classes that get shot at a lot.

If one has a good Hack stat, make him/her a Specialist as well.

The one with the lowest Defence can become a Grenadier - with 15 Mobility and low Aim, just give him a SMG and enjoy a cornucopia of grenades. :)
Ithuriel
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Ithuriel »

Manifest wrote: I don't think anything that specifically buffs OW aim occurs before the 70% penalty.
Can you confirm or deny this? As far as I know, the 70% (60% for dashing) penalty occurs after ALL penalties. If this was the case, wouldn't this also imply that Hair Triggers apply after the penalty?
Goumindong wrote:
At CPL Lockdown is +15. I am not sure but I think it applies after the General overwatch malus.
As above, can you provide a source (Pavonis or ini files) for this?
Goumindong wrote:All in all the most important stats for a suppression gunner are a) defense b) dodge d) will e) mobility f) hit points g) aim h) hack score i) PSI offense.

Mobility is over HP because you can more easily trade mobility for HP in terms of vests than you can gain mobility. Defense is highest because shooting at the suppressing unit is a favorite of enemies and you want to minimize the probability of your area suppressing shutting off (dodge similarly has positive effects here because it will turn graze band hits into misses)
Even assuming you're right I'd still dissent this- I'd probably say Defense/Mobility/Will/Dodge/Hit point/Aim/Hack/PSI. By default the graze band is 20%, so if you have dodge 10 you're literally avoiding 2% of shots... also I think Will isn't as important because Revival Protocol is a thing.
8wayz wrote: The one with the lowest Defence can become a Grenadier - with 15 Mobility and low Aim, just give him a SMG and enjoy a cornucopia of grenades.
Grenadiers- because who needs stats when you have explosives?
Jacke
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:10 am

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Jacke »

Ithuriel wrote:I built the GTS day 1 in my campaign because I highly value being able to chose my recruit's class.
Most definitely. And sell some initial loot at the Black Market so you have at least 35 supplies when the GTS is completed so it can be upgraded with an Officer Training Station immediately. Because you want to limit Officers to certain classes and soldiers, the OTS may not always be full, but you want those initial Officers ASAP.

I also use the mod Commander's Choice as I feel not having control over what soldier classes get chosen is just a bit too much RNG. Still use the stations in the GTS to up my output of Squaddies. It'll eventually become much riskier to send Rookies on missions.

I run with the option Not Created Equally and I've always had troops average less than 65 Aim ; often I've had all 8 initial troops with sub 65. It's so bad I've adapted the mod Accurate Rookies to work with LW2 and get +10 on Aim. Will see how that works out and may tone that back, but it's crazy that an insurgency wouldn't pick better aim troops for soldiers.
Goumindong
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Goumindong »

Ithuriel wrote: Even assuming you're right I'd still dissent this- I'd probably say Defense/Mobility/Will/Dodge/Hit point/Aim/Hack/PSI. By default the graze band is 20%, so if you have dodge 10 you're literally avoiding 2% of shots... also I think Will isn't as important because Revival Protocol is a thing.
getting hit with a will attack will end your suppression early. Having a high will will encourage sectoids to target other units
Ithuriel
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Ithuriel »

Jacke wrote:
Ithuriel wrote:I built the GTS day 1 in my campaign because I highly value being able to chose my recruit's class.
Most definitely. And sell some initial loot at the Black Market so you have at least 35 supplies when the GTS is completed so it can be upgraded with an Officer Training Station immediately. Because you want to limit Officers to certain classes and soldiers, the OTS may not always be full, but you want those initial Officers ASAP.
Two notes- firstly, what classes do you train as Officers? For me I like holotargeting Sharpshooters and Technicals- the latter since they don't have much to do when they're not using their heavy weapons.

...also I think I fucked up in my Ironman campaign- I had the option to build a AWC or grab Vulture earlygame and I went for Vulture, but I'm... regrets
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by trihero »

Shinobis make natural officers; your stealth shinobis take oscar mike for the hax. And your battle shinobi can use Command without breaking concealment so it can contribute DPS without ruining the scout role. You should almost always have a shinobi on a team anyways so why not make it the officer?
User avatar
Devon_v
Long War EU Crew
Posts: 297
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:17 am

Re: Low Aim Rookies

Post by Devon_v »

I like Shinobi for general officers because it gives them something to do while scouting. I like Rangers for battle officers because they tend to be in the middle of things for Incoming! and I always make them out of good aim troops, so they hand out some accuracy buffs as well.
Post Reply