Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

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SouthpawHare
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:34 am

Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by SouthpawHare »

So, I understand why retaliations happen based on reading other threads. They essentially occur due to having so many workers working, either overall or on a specific job (and faceless count double).

The question is, how much should you actively try to avoid them? Sure, they are bad, and almost strictly so. However, having your workers not working is also bad. To what extent should one put people in hiding to avoid retaliation, and to what extent should one just say "screw it" and max out working for maximum profit instead? Is there a benefit to some middle-ground as well (i.e. having enough workers working that a retaliation could happen, but not everyone)?
Kharneth
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:28 pm

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by Kharneth »

I think there isn't any benefits from a middle point, one you reached the minimun working rebels and strengh you have the same chances of retiliation with just the cap to everione at works, at least i ddn't find anything in the forum or ufopaedia saing otherthing.

My strategy is have all people at work until the region reaches S6, at minor strengh retiliations are easy so theres no reason to avoid then. When the region reaches S6 i left only 4 at work
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by LordYanaek »

SouthpawHare wrote:The question is, how much should you actively try to avoid them?
Depends on the retaliation (mini or full).
You can (usually) avoid mini retaliations by having max 5 rebels on a specific job. You need max 4 on every job to avoid full retaliations.
Details on UFOpedia
Sure, they are bad, and almost strictly so. However, having your workers not working is also bad.
Yep, that's the point of retaliations, to force you to make a non obvious choice ;)
Is there a benefit to some middle-ground as well (i.e. having enough workers working that a retaliation could happen, but not everyone)?
The middle ground would be to know which (mini) retaliation you really hate (for most players it's recruit) and don't put more than 5 (or 4 to be on the safer side) rebels on that job with others doing another job. Sure it won't be as effective but at least you avoid one of the retaliations. I would avoid doing this for intel because 4-5 guys on intel won't give you good timers most of the time but for recruit it's an option. Your haven won't grow very fast but it's one of the most deadly mini-retaliations (especially in high str regions) and it's easy to loose enough rebels that an entire month or 2 of recruitment goes to waste so growing slowly but safely is an option.

If you want to avoid the full retaliations (where the haven itself) is attacked, there is no middle ground, you must have max 4 guys on any job which is really low so i would advise not doing this unless you are late in the campaign and can't be bothered to run the mission. You might also consider 4 supply in very high str regions if you want to keep your guys safe but what you're doing is not gaining supplies to avoid loosing the guys who are not currently bringing supplies. I did this but it was only because i had enough supplies anyway and i don't like to loose rebels but strategically it's probably a bad idea.
stefan3iii
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Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:49 am

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by stefan3iii »

I don't think generally you should avoid them at all, they cost almost no soldier time, but provide a nice XP reward. "Retaliations", despite their name, are more of a reward really.

For comparison, an ambush troop costs you something like 8 soldiers x 7 days infiltration = 50+ days of Soldier Time, and then any wounds you suffer. Retaliations in comparison cost you 0 infiltration time, so only the wounds cost Soldier Time. The rewards of course are way lower than a troop ambush, but nonetheless you're getting stuff (XP) for very little cost. Something for (almost) nothing is always a great deal!

I only avoid them if I don't think I can handle retaliations, maybe because I want to do a long infiltration with my B team, or there are a lot of wounded soldiers because I ate a rocket last mission.

edit: oops meant 50+ days of soldier time, not hours.
Last edited by stefan3iii on Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
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Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by chrisb »

As stefan mentioned, avoiding them is not really what you want except in really high strength regions or the combat squads are out of town. I typically 'know' when to expect a retal. With 13 rebels on intel in a strength 6 region, you can expect it quickly. I think one of the key elements to retals is having decent if not really good haven advisors. Especially if I'm 'baiting' them I will often stick a member of my A-Team as an advisor. Tanky CE/CCS assaults work great as human landmines for any pods that wander near the relay. Early game I'll go Technical to rocket/flamer anything that gets close.

The bonus is, once the retal hits it goes on a 3 week cooldown! Basically meaning you can stick a scientist advisor in and farm troop columns until the CD is up. By then the region becomes a magnet for strength. After 3-4 weeks, switch back to the assault, pop the next retal, rinse and repeat.
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by LordYanaek »

Funny how people usually consider lost rebels "no cost". I personally hate loosing rebels so retaliations are on my "best avoided" list, near the top of that list in fact.
Of course, some retaliations are easier than others :
  • Defense full retaliation. No enemies on the map, they all drop as reinforcements. Yeah, feels like free XP but unfortunately you don't know you'll get that one or ...
  • Terror-like full retaliation. Pods are untied on this mission and can kill several rebels/turn. You have to be really aggressive. Lost rebels and wounded soldiers are frequent and wound timers are often longer than infiltration so not "free xp" at all for me.
  • Supply Raid. Another drop only mission. Often free XP.
  • Intel Raid. Very random. You could have a T0 pod activation or an easy mission. Usually thought you have to be very aggressive to save your rebels and wounds aren't rare. Not free but can't really avoid unless you don't plan to run missions in that region.
  • Recruit Raid. Can be really nasty, especially in high str region. Wounds and death (rebels or even soldiers) are very likely. Best avoided.
stefan3iii
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:49 am

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by stefan3iii »

Yeah the terror retaliations are definitely the worst, you're going to lose some rebels. I've never had a hard recruit retaliation, but maybe I've been lucky.

That said, hiding your rebels to avoid retaliations is about the same thing as actually doing something with them, and then them dying in retaliations. Early game rebels are super valuable, but mid/late game you have so many that they're pretty replaceable.

One thing that I *think* happens is that only 1 retaliation can be brewing in a region at a time. So to reduce the chance of a hard terror retaliation, putting everyone on supplies might be a good idea. Maybe in general, putting everyone on the same type of job will encourage the easy mini-retaliations, instead of the terror retaliation. I think that's how it works, but maybe someone else can confirm.
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:43 pm

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by chrisb »

So here's a few points that I've managed to dig out of the templates.

RetalOps can only have 1 in a region at any time. Similar to GeneralOps having a limit of 2 per region.

COIN op has the requirements
  • At least 5 rebels working
  • Vigilance and Alert of at least 4
  • Pass an RNG check to spawn the DestroyObject mission.
  • Destroy object mission has 6-8 day spawn timer, after which it triggers Terror/Defend.
  • It has a 14-21 day cooldown.
The RNG Check is based on alert level and number of faceless. 4 Alert = 1 Faceless = 1%.

Code: Select all

chance = (AlertLevel * 0.25) + (NumFaceless)
if(rand() * 100 < chance) { spawn hell }
With strength 8 + 2 faceless that's a 4% chance to spawn every 6 hours. Once spawned the detection chance is reduced by ResistanceInformant dark event and the presence of faceless.

Job retals are mostly the same with slight differences.
  • At least 6 rebels on a given job, modified by any faceless in the Haven down to a minimum of 3.
  • Intel raid requires at least 3 alert, recruit/supply requires 4.
  • Intel/Supply raids have an 18-24 day cooldown, recruit raid has a 14-24 day cooldown.
Chance to detect is slightly different.

For Intel/Supply

Code: Select all

chance = (AlertLevel * 0.2) * (RebelsOnJob/8) + NumFaceless
For Recruit

Code: Select all

chance = (AlertLevel * 0.33) * (RebelsOnJob/8) + NumFaceless
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:43 pm

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by chrisb »

Also, the check to spawn a retal I believe happens in a specific order.
  1. Intel
  2. Supply
  3. Recruit
  4. COIN
I'm not 100% certain on the COIN being the last one checked. The config lists it as having a priority of 30, but the template has it hardcoded at 50. The other retals are 41/42/43, lower is first.
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by LordYanaek »

chrisb wrote: Chance to detect is slightly different.
I guess you mean the chance to spawn the activity (since mini-retaliations are always auto-detected)

Anyway, thanks for the code-based details, i never went further than ini digging :)
Dwarfling
Posts: 524
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:16 pm

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by Dwarfling »

Once a mini-retal happens, is there some sort of timer for when the next one is gonna happen? Say I set everyone to Intel, Data Tap happens and I succeed. If I keep them on Intel, do I have some sort of stablished free-of-retaliation time? Is is just for Intel jobs?
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by LordYanaek »

Yes there is
chrisb wrote: Intel/Supply raids have an 18-24 day cooldown, recruit raid has a 14-24 day cooldown
(three posts above :twisted: )
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
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Re: Retaliation Avoidance Strategy?

Post by chrisb »

The cooldowns are regional and specific to the job. So getting a data tap only puts intel retal on cooldown not the others, including the COIN retal. So it's not a 'free' period, the COIN can still hit since it has it's own cooldown. It has lower odds of procing though, and is basically a constant threat. Though if you have everyone on intel, there is a precursor mission you can detect to prevent it, so at least that helps for intel spamming.
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