What are the uses of Field surgeon?

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Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Tuhalu »

I've been thinking about Field Surgeon and I think there are a few ways to make it a worthwhile option (in order of power).

1/ Add a new Wound Severity that applies only when you were wounded in the mission, but Field Surgeon has healed you back to full health. Rather than being out for several days, you'd only be out for a few days (say 3-5).
2/ Allow Field Surgeon to work on anyone who was Bleeding Out or had a lowest health of 0 in the mission.
3/ Allow Field Surgeon to heal an additional point if the soldier with the skill is carrying a Nanomedikit and if they have the Saviour perk. These effects would be subject to the same diminishing returns that stacking Field Surgeon perks incurs.
Exquisitor
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 4:50 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Exquisitor »

Is Field Surgeon cumulative among specialists on board the Avenger? If not, it should be. If so, then one should be able to field enough specialists to make wound recovery times very, very short. The effect of the FS should be found somewhere (maybe a % effect on the ASW screen).

Why are minor wounds/damage points applied to those wearing armor after returning from a mission? If one has 6HP and armor gives 3HP, but one only takes 3HP, then the wounds should be zero. That should be one benefit of armor. Alternately, one could apply a portion of the armor as not causing wounds. Say some percentage of the HP ratio.

Why is the damage healed from the stasis vest still considered a wound for purposes of healing. Isn't the stasis vest providing regenerative healing? Does anyone actually use these vests other than 1-2 of my soldiers in every playthrough?
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by chrisb »

Exquisitor wrote:Why are minor wounds/damage points applied to those wearing armor after returning from a mission? If one has 6HP and armor gives 3HP, but one only takes 3HP, then the wounds should be zero. That should be one benefit of armor. Alternately, one could apply a portion of the armor as not causing wounds. Say some percentage of the HP ratio.
This is what Ablative HP is which you get from vests and Formidable.
Exquisitor
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Exquisitor »

This is what Ablative HP is which you get from vests and Formidable.
Isn't this already provided for in the ablative armor you get from the ceramic arrmor and ablative upgrades? The predator armor provides HP as well as armor. It doesn't provide ablative armor. It seems like the HP from predator or warden armors should be subtracted off the wounds first. In the example I provided, the trooper would take no injury if the predator armor soaked up the damage.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Tuhalu »

Exquisitor wrote:
This is what Ablative HP is which you get from vests and Formidable.
Isn't this already provided for in the ablative armor you get from the ceramic arrmor and ablative upgrades? The predator armor provides HP as well as armor. It doesn't provide ablative armor. It seems like the HP from predator or warden armors should be subtracted off the wounds first. In the example I provided, the trooper would take no injury if the predator armor soaked up the damage.
The point is, ablative armor is health that doesn't cause wounds when you lose it. There doesn't need to be a new mechanic where health magically doesn't cause wounds if it was on armor, because ablative armor health already does that. If you really want standard Armors to do that as well, you just change their health bonus to an ablative health bonus.
Jacke
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Jacke »

Tuhalu wrote:The point is, ablative armor is health that doesn't cause wounds when you lose it. There doesn't need to be a new mechanic where health magically doesn't cause wounds if it was on armor, because ablative armor health already does that. If you really want standard Armors to do that as well, you just change their health bonus to an ablative health bonus.
The difference is ablative can't be healed mid-mission. Added health can be.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Tuhalu »

Jacke wrote:
Tuhalu wrote:The point is, ablative armor is health that doesn't cause wounds when you lose it. There doesn't need to be a new mechanic where health magically doesn't cause wounds if it was on armor, because ablative armor health already does that. If you really want standard Armors to do that as well, you just change their health bonus to an ablative health bonus.
The difference is ablative can't be healed mid-mission. Added health can be.
If you can heal it, it must be a wound and not some kind of armor damage.

There is a mod that does what you are suggesting with regards to armor health. It's Just a Scratch v2
Antifringe
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Antifringe »

I've always imagined to be that ablative armor is a hard barrier that blocks damage completely, but gets cracked and useless afterwards. Health armor is more of a "soft" armor that relies on slopes and energy distribution rather than hard blocks. So if a suit of armor increases your health from, say, 4 to 8, it's not so much that you gained 4 points of metal between you and the enemy, it's that incoming shots do half as much damage as before.
Manifest
Posts: 236
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Manifest »

josna238 wrote:I can't find the reason to pick up this perk. When 1 HP is an important % of the damage received (in early game) we don't have acces to this perk and in late game 1 HP isn't a lot when we receive something like 10 damage in a hit. And it happens not very often. So in my opinion is a perk that isn't used very often and when is used it does a little effect.

It's like converting hp to healable ablative hp. As some have said that's not insane, but it's fine. Unlike formidable which gives two hp to one person, it gives one to everyone, which I appreciate. I wish it'd scale up with gremlins though. Maybe 1/1.5/2? Where 1.5 is a 50% chance for 2 or 1?
sacho
Posts: 30
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by sacho »

Having read this thread I think we're suffering from a lack of data. How are wound timers calculated? Are they linear? Does Field Surgeon add HP before or after armor is removed from wound calculations?

Chrisb pointed out that Field Surgeon doesn't scale. If wound timers are linear, that's true, but "scaling" also means you could start from a worse-off point, which the AWC does! For example, if wound timers give 5 days for every 10% lost hp, you need to lose 30% of your hp to match the AWC and Field Surgeon healing - anything lower and FS would be better. The AWC also isn't without cost - you're moving a scientist from research to treatment(I think? When I tested it my research time did go up when I moved the scientist to the AWC).

In the best case scenario described by Tuhalu, FS is a fairly good perk. It's unfortunate if you can't remove wound timers at 1 HP loss because that would shave off a lot of its effectiveness.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Tuhalu »

OK. Lets start from the basics then.

How does healing work?

When a wounded soldier returns to the avenger, the game creates a healing project for them.

The first thing the healing project does is get that soldiers lowest health in the mission (healing a soldier back up during the mission does nothing). It compares it to their maximum health with their current armor and utility items.

The game then takes off all their armor and utility items to leave them with their base health. Their actual health is converted to the same fraction of their base health as their lowest health was with their max health.

For instance, a soldier with 20 health in the mission is reduced to 10 health. This is 50% of his max health. His base health is 10. 50% of that is 5 health, so he is now on 5 health.

Next, the game checks the following array to determine how much work needs to be done to complete the project.

Code: Select all

!WoundSeverities=()

+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=-10000, MaxHealthPercent=10, MinPointsToHeal=45000, MaxPointsToHeal=55000, Difficulty=0) ;Easy
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=10, MaxHealthPercent=20, MinPointsToHeal=40000, MaxPointsToHeal=47500, Difficulty=0)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=20, MaxHealthPercent=30, MinPointsToHeal=35000, MaxPointsToHeal=42500, Difficulty=0)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=30, MaxHealthPercent=40, MinPointsToHeal=30000, MaxPointsToHeal=37500, Difficulty=0)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=40, MaxHealthPercent=50, MinPointsToHeal=25000, MaxPointsToHeal=32500, Difficulty=0)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=50, MaxHealthPercent=60, MinPointsToHeal=20000, MaxPointsToHeal=27500, Difficulty=0)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=60, MaxHealthPercent=70, MinPointsToHeal=15000, MaxPointsToHeal=22500, Difficulty=0)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=70, MaxHealthPercent=80, MinPointsToHeal=10000, MaxPointsToHeal=17500, Difficulty=0)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=80, MaxHealthPercent=90, MinPointsToHeal=5000, MaxPointsToHeal=12500, Difficulty=0)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=90, MaxHealthPercent=10000, MinPointsToHeal=1000, MaxPointsToHeal=7500, Difficulty=0)

+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=-10000, MaxHealthPercent=10, MinPointsToHeal=45000, MaxPointsToHeal=75000, Difficulty=1) ;Veteran
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=10, MaxHealthPercent=20, MinPointsToHeal=40000, MaxPointsToHeal=47500, Difficulty=1)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=20, MaxHealthPercent=30, MinPointsToHeal=35000, MaxPointsToHeal=42500, Difficulty=1)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=30, MaxHealthPercent=40, MinPointsToHeal=30000, MaxPointsToHeal=37500, Difficulty=1)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=40, MaxHealthPercent=50, MinPointsToHeal=25000, MaxPointsToHeal=32500, Difficulty=1)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=50, MaxHealthPercent=60, MinPointsToHeal=20000, MaxPointsToHeal=27500, Difficulty=1)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=60, MaxHealthPercent=70, MinPointsToHeal=15000, MaxPointsToHeal=22500, Difficulty=1)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=70, MaxHealthPercent=80, MinPointsToHeal=10000, MaxPointsToHeal=17500, Difficulty=1)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=80, MaxHealthPercent=90, MinPointsToHeal=5000, MaxPointsToHeal=12500, Difficulty=1)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=90, MaxHealthPercent=10000, MinPointsToHeal=1000, MaxPointsToHeal=7500, Difficulty=1)

+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=-10000, MaxHealthPercent=10, MinPointsToHeal=45000, MaxPointsToHeal=75000, Difficulty=2) ;Commander
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=10, MaxHealthPercent=20, MinPointsToHeal=40000, MaxPointsToHeal=47500, Difficulty=2)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=20, MaxHealthPercent=30, MinPointsToHeal=35000, MaxPointsToHeal=42500, Difficulty=2)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=30, MaxHealthPercent=40, MinPointsToHeal=30000, MaxPointsToHeal=37500, Difficulty=2)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=40, MaxHealthPercent=50, MinPointsToHeal=25000, MaxPointsToHeal=32500, Difficulty=2)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=50, MaxHealthPercent=60, MinPointsToHeal=20000, MaxPointsToHeal=27500, Difficulty=2)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=60, MaxHealthPercent=70, MinPointsToHeal=15000, MaxPointsToHeal=22500, Difficulty=2)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=70, MaxHealthPercent=80, MinPointsToHeal=10000, MaxPointsToHeal=17500, Difficulty=2)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=80, MaxHealthPercent=90, MinPointsToHeal=5000, MaxPointsToHeal=12500, Difficulty=2)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=90, MaxHealthPercent=10000, MinPointsToHeal=1000, MaxPointsToHeal=7500, Difficulty=2)

+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=-10000, MaxHealthPercent=10, MinPointsToHeal=45000, MaxPointsToHeal=75000, Difficulty=3) ;Legend
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=10, MaxHealthPercent=20, MinPointsToHeal=40000, MaxPointsToHeal=47500, Difficulty=3)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=20, MaxHealthPercent=30, MinPointsToHeal=35000, MaxPointsToHeal=42500, Difficulty=3)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=30, MaxHealthPercent=40, MinPointsToHeal=30000, MaxPointsToHeal=37500, Difficulty=3)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=40, MaxHealthPercent=50, MinPointsToHeal=25000, MaxPointsToHeal=32500, Difficulty=3)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=50, MaxHealthPercent=60, MinPointsToHeal=20000, MaxPointsToHeal=27500, Difficulty=3)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=60, MaxHealthPercent=70, MinPointsToHeal=15000, MaxPointsToHeal=22500, Difficulty=3)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=70, MaxHealthPercent=80, MinPointsToHeal=10000, MaxPointsToHeal=17500, Difficulty=3)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=80, MaxHealthPercent=90, MinPointsToHeal=5000, MaxPointsToHeal=12500, Difficulty=3)
+WoundSeverities=(MinHealthPercent=90, MaxHealthPercent=10000, MinPointsToHeal=1000, MaxPointsToHeal=7500, Difficulty=3)
First, it finds the right list for the current difficulty (0-3 = rookie - legend). Second, it find the entry where MinHealthPercent and MaxHealthPercent bracket the percentage of health the soldier has left. Third, it randomly picks a number between MinPoints to Heal and MaxPoints to Heal.

Now the game knows how much health it needs to heal and how much work it needs to do to heal that much health. It divides the work by the number of wounds to figure out how much work it will take to heal a single point of health. Every time that much work is done, a point is healed.

The amount of work that is done in any given day is determined by a constant, with the AWC Scientist multipying that by 1.5 (1/1.5 = 0.67, which is why the scientist reduces healing time by 33%).

Once all the points of health are healed, the soldier is unwounded and may return to duty.

How does Field Surgeon fit in?

If a soldier returns to the Avenger with a lowest health in mission at least 1 below max and at least 1 above 0, then Field Surgeon kicks in (if there was someone with Field Surgeon in the squad!). It gives them 1 health back after calculating how much health they actually have on the Avenger.

Note that Field Surgeon from multiple soldiers can apply, but each one after the first only has a chance of applying. It's 50% for the second point of health, 33% for the third point of health, 25% for the fourth point of health, 20% for the fifth point of health, 15% of the sixth point of health and 10% for every point of health after that. Of course, there aren't many squads that will have 7 or more soldiers with Field Surgeon, even with the AWC factored in!

The wound severity check is made after this.

What does this mean?

If you've lost at least 1 health, you cannot be unwounded. At best Field Surgeon can return you to the 90-10000% wound severity range. So at best you are going to be wounded for a few days.

If you are reduced to 0 wounds, then Field surgeon will never do anything, even if you are healed in mission and fight your way through the rest of the mission. Healing will take the maximum amount of time.

Field Surgeon is of varying effectiveness at differing health ranges. Below 5 health, a single point of health recovery can make you jump up 2 or more wound severities, which is always good. From 6-9 health, you could jump up a single wound severity or two if you're lucky. At 10 health and above, you will never go up more than one wound severity.
trihero
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by trihero »

If you've lost at least 1 health, you cannot be unwounded. At best Field Surgeon can return you to the 90-10000% wound severity range. So at best you are going to be wounded for a few days.
Are you sure that's true? I remember one of my dude's taking 1 hp damage with a field surgeon on the team and I had no wounds taken at the end of the battle.
sacho
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:08 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by sacho »

Thank you for the description Tuhalu! Based on it I made a crude spreadsheet to calculate the effectiveness of FS and FS vs AWC. I took into account your description(FS does not heal max wounds or 1 HP wounds), and also added a What-If scenario if FS healed the first HP. In the table, I refer to "Base HP" as the soldier's HP without any armor on, and "Wound" as the number of hit points "lost" when the soldier returns to the barracks(essentially, a 2 "Wound" would mean 10-20% lost HP). Here's the spreadsheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

From the numbers, I can see that for up to 20-30% lost HP, FS is better or about even to an AWC running full-time. It continues to have a strong effect at 40-50%, but there are gaps where the AWC is significantly superior. From that analysis, I would be satisfied in picking it for my soldiers.

If FS worked on the first HP, it would of course be infinitely more useful, as scratches would cause no wound timer. Even beyond the "wound reduction time", this would allow you to shrug off scratches and send the soldier in on a pending mission. Maybe that's how FS should behave?
trihero
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:01 am

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by trihero »

If FS worked on the first HP, it would of course be infinitely more useful, as scratches would cause no wound timer. Even beyond the "wound reduction time", this would allow you to shrug off scratches and send the soldier in on a pending mission. Maybe that's how FS should behave?
Does it not behave that way? I've seen FS work on the first hp.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Tuhalu »

From 1.3 patch notes:
- Bugfix for Field Surgeon not applying on minor wounds.
I guess that fixes the 1 wound issue. Didn't notice that fix before now.... and probably what caused the bugs that needed to be fixed in 1.4.

From 1.4 patch notes:
- Fixes to Field Surgeon not always proccing when it should, and sometimes proccing when it shouldn't.
DonCrabio
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by DonCrabio »

Since 1.3 Specialist rework almost all possible hybrid builds was cut off, so Field Surgeon make much more sense for pure medic. And competition is so weak, maybe it worth to take even on Hacker/Support Specialist now.
LordYanaek
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by LordYanaek »

Tuhalu wrote:OK. Lets start from the basics then.

How does healing work?
<...>
OK, just to be sure i understand it correctly.

Wound timer is calculated from the base health, not the total health but the soldier is reduced to a % of base health equal to the percent of total (armor) health he had at the end of the battle, then Field Surgeon is applied?
Example : I have a 5 health soldier with Predator Armor (+3) and Nanofiber Vest (+2) for a total of 10 HP on the tactical map. The soldier suffers 4 wounds in battle and is reduced to 6 HP. When he returns to the avenger his HP is set to 3/5, then Field Surgeon kicks in and "heals) 1 HP bringing him to 4/5 and the wound timer is calculated for 80% HP left (effectively healing 2 of the damage received in battle!)

Is it right? Given your explanations, the timing is very important. If Field Surgeon kicks in after the HP left ratio is calculated for the base HP as i think, it makes it stronger. It also means +HP items are even better for squads with a FS than other squads since they effectively multiply the healing received.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Tuhalu »

According to the comments for Field Surgeon, it appears that its possible for Field Surgeon to apply before or after armor is removed (they have no way to ensure it works one way or the other). So it can be randomly better or worse than you'd think once you start getting health from armor/utility items.
Manifest
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:30 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Manifest »

On that note does anyone know how smart microphages works with injury timers?
DonCrabio
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by DonCrabio »

trihero wrote:
If FS worked on the first HP, it would of course be infinitely more useful, as scratches would cause no wound timer. Even beyond the "wound reduction time", this would allow you to shrug off scratches and send the soldier in on a pending mission. Maybe that's how FS should behave?
Does it not behave that way? I've seen FS work on the first hp.
I got several 1 hp wounds fully healed by Field Surgeon in my current campaign. Too bad my hacker/support specked Specialists have Interference already.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Tuhalu »

Oh, also, it looks like a Stabilized soldier is eligible for Field Surgeon effect in 1.3 and onwards. It only refuses to work if the target is dead or bleeding out (or fully healed)
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:43 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by chrisb »

Tuhalu wrote:Oh, also, it looks like a Stabilized soldier is eligible for Field Surgeon effect in 1.3 and onwards. It only refuses to work if the target is dead or bleeding out (or fully healed)

Code: Select all

	if(SourceUnit.IsDead()) { return false; }
	if(SourceUnit.IsBleedingOut()) { return false; }
	if(SourceUnit.bCaptured) { return false; }
	if(SourceUnit.LowestHP == 0) { return false; }
	if(SourceUnit.IsUnconscious()) { return false; }
Those are the checks that have to pass, I think if you are bleeding out at any point your LowestHP will be 0.
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Tuhalu »

chrisb wrote:
Tuhalu wrote:Oh, also, it looks like a Stabilized soldier is eligible for Field Surgeon effect in 1.3 and onwards. It only refuses to work if the target is dead or bleeding out (or fully healed)

Code: Select all

	if(SourceUnit.IsDead()) { return false; }
	if(SourceUnit.IsBleedingOut()) { return false; }
	if(SourceUnit.bCaptured) { return false; }
	if(SourceUnit.LowestHP == 0) { return false; }
	if(SourceUnit.IsUnconscious()) { return false; }
Those are the checks that have to pass, I think if you are bleeding out at any point your LowestHP will be 0.
I might be getting this around backwards, but it looks like there is a check for the source (the character with Field Surgeon) and for the target (the character to whom Field Surgeon is applied). This code is for the source.

In the following code, !FieldSurgeonEffectIsValidForSource(SourceUnitState) links to the bit of code you mention. After that, you have checks for UnitState, which looks like the character that is being healed.

Basically, the game wants the character with Field Surgeon to not be so wounded that they aren't themselves in a critical condition, dead or captured.

Code: Select all

	SourceUnitState = XComGameState_Unit(`XCOMHISTORY.GetGameStateForObjectID(EffectState.ApplyEffectParameters.SourceStateObjectRef.ObjectID));
	`PPTRACE("Field Surgeon: TargetUnit=" $ UnitState.GetFullName() $ ", SourceUnit=" $ SourceUnitState.GetFullName());

	if(!FieldSurgeonEffectIsValidForSource(SourceUnitState)) { return; }

	`PPTRACE("Field Surgeon: Source Unit Valid.");

	if(UnitState == none) { return; }
	if(UnitState.IsDead()) { return; }
	if(UnitState.IsBleedingOut()) { return; }
	if(!CanBeHealed(UnitState)) { return; }

	`PPTRACE("Field Surgeon: Target Unit Can Be Healed.");
chrisb
Pavonis Dev
Posts: 364
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by chrisb »

Right, then there's also the last check, CanBeHealed, which also checks if LowestHP > 0

Code: Select all

(UnitState.LowestHP < UnitState.HighestHP && UnitState.LowestHP > 0);
Tuhalu
Posts: 433
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Re: What are the uses of Field surgeon?

Post by Tuhalu »

Ah, that's what I was missing. OK then :)
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