Strategic help needed

[archangel]

OK, my commander 1.3 run was doing well until I just got murdered in a supply raid mission in May.
Mission had 63% infiltration (Heavy), Strength 1 region. Send 8 guys inside and got met by fucking Muton Centurions, Advanced Mecs and shit. WTF?!
2nd pack had those. 1st pack was 8 with nothing especially bad. And I only had basic laser weapons and no armor.

How the hell am I supposed to battle this in May?! I was unlucky with Scientists for a long while and my tech was a bit behind but Muton Centurion and Advanced Mech in May in Strength 1 region?! Come on!

EDIT: OK 2nd pack was 2x Heavy Mec, 1x Mec Archer, 1x Muton Centurion, 1x Muton, 1xBerserker, 1xAdvent Shieldbearer, 1xSurveillance Drone ----- if this shit is normal for May this game's balance is completely broken even for Commander difficulty (even full laser weapons would not let me survive this shit)

I didn't wipe any missions, I had some injuries but no soldier deaths, I failed only one mission (due to blowing up the objective with a Rocket) and still Strategic layer and alien tech completely destroyed me.

So I guess I mostly got the tactical part of this game down, but I guess I got no clue how to keep up with alien tech. BTW this was first supply raid/troop column I got with reasonable time even with having two regions most of the time all on intel so I had no chance to do one early to get access to lots of stuff to sell and buy engineers/scientists.

So I guess I need help on how to play the strategic part, what is critical to do early and when should I restart campaign earlier so I don't come to May again and get killed by better alien tech.

[Garthor]

It is dangerous to underinfiltrate a Supply Raid mission.

[archangel]

It is dangerous to underinfiltrate a Supply Raid mission.

So supply raid now are traps and should be avoided? I don't understand why it exists then.

[Saph7]

So supply raid now are traps and should be avoided? I don't understand why it exists then.

If you go here, you'll see that 63% infil translates to +4 or +5 Alert. On top of that, Supply Raids take their strength from the source region or the destination region, whichever is higher. So that would have been a Strength 6 mission at absolute minimum, and could easily have been Strength 9 or 10.

Even at 100% infiltration, Supply Raids are some of the most difficult and dangerous missions in the game. Doing them at 63% infiltration is a bad idea unless you know exactly what you're doing.

[archangel]

And how is one supposed to have a 100% infiltration for supply raid (I even used an intel boost)? As I said, it seems this is now a mission that exists for no real reason. Bad balance

[Garthor]

And how is one supposed to have a 100% infiltration for supply raid (I even used an intel boost)? As I said, it seems this is now a mission that exists for no real reason. Bad balance

Large number of resistance personnel on Intel, scientist adviser, scanning with the Avenger, spending Intel to boost infiltration.

[Tuhalu]

Like Garthor said, it's possible to get your Mission Intel up really high, allowing you to detect Supply Raid with a fairly good timer. This is more of a mid-game thing.

(13 rebels on intel +4 Avenger Scanning) * 1.2 for Radio Tower * 1.2 for scientist = 24 rebels worth of mission intel. You can get that even higher when some of the rebels have levelled up (they'll have 2 perks per level up so you can see that in the Haven management screen). Each level on a rebel is worth .5 of rookie rebel (max level 3). That makes the absolute maximum you can get 48 rebels worth of mission intel, although that's extremely unlikely to ever happen.

Compare ~30 rebels worth of intel to your early game ~15 or so rebels worth on intel. That's twice the detection!

[Dwarfling]

If a Supply Raid pops and it doesn't let you at least fully infiltrate a group of 5 (say those Very Light to Light, or 6 soldiers for Moderate) with intel boost, just assume they never popped in the first place. SnG seems to me to be an easier source of income.

[Saph7]

And how is one supposed to have a 100% infiltration for supply raid (I even used an intel boost)? As I said, it seems this is now a mission that exists for no real reason. Bad balance

Supply Raids are rare, difficult, high-risk-high-reward missions that usually will not spawn with a good enough timer. They're bonuses, not something you're entitled to. You can easily win the game without doing a single Supply Raid.

Even if they spawn with too short a timer to be doable, Supply Raids are useful. They let you know when the strengths of the regions are going to change, giving you useful information on when you should run your missions.

[archangel]

If a Supply Raid pops and it doesn't let you at least fully infiltrate a group of 5 (say those Very Light to Light, or 6 soldiers for Moderate) with intel boost, just assume they never popped in the first place. SnG seems to me to be an easier source of income.

SnG does not give you bodies for research and crafting. In 1.2 Supply Raids and Troop Columns were super useful for this.
Now with them being impossible, game lacks a good way to collect bodies.

[Dwarfling]

If a Supply Raid pops and it doesn't let you at least fully infiltrate a group of 5 (say those Very Light to Light, or 6 soldiers for Moderate) with intel boost, just assume they never popped in the first place. SnG seems to me to be an easier source of income.

SnG does not give you bodies for research and crafting. In 1.2 Supply Raids and Troop Columns were super useful for this.
Now with them being impossible, game lacks a good way to collect bodies.

You speak of impossible yet I did at least 2 fully infiltrated supply raids on my current 1.3 legendary campaign. Actually, pretty sure it was 3. And it was on the early game. I had like 10 people on Intel and I had to intel boost, maybe 1 of them unboosted.

[archangel]

If a Supply Raid pops and it doesn't let you at least fully infiltrate a group of 5 (say those Very Light to Light, or 6 soldiers for Moderate) with intel boost, just assume they never popped in the first place. SnG seems to me to be an easier source of income.

SnG does not give you bodies for research and crafting. In 1.2 Supply Raids and Troop Columns were super useful for this.
Now with them being impossible, game lacks a good way to collect bodies.

You speak of impossible yet I did at least 2 fully infiltrated supply raids on my current 1.3 legendary campaign. Actually, pretty sure it was 3. And it was on the early game. I had like 10 people on Intel and I had to intel boost, maybe 1 of them unboosted.

Then you got lucky, 63% infil was best I was able.

Anyways, anyone got general Strategic layer tips on how to keep up with alien tech?
I like LW2 tactical combat, but I am not a fan of strategic parts.
Any mods that make Strategic parts easier?
I tried to lower difficulty to Veteran but every alien is now weaker in tactical combat as well

[Saph7]

Anyways, anyone got general Strategic layer tips on how to keep up with alien tech?

Do a lot of missions. Alien research always goes at exactly the same speed, while XCOM progress is based on how many missions you do. The ideal is to have every soldier in your barracks either infiltrating a mission, training in a facility, or working as a haven advisor. If you can keep 3 simultaneous infiltrations going for most of the game, you'll have no trouble keeping up with alien tech.

You don't have to go for the big risky ones like Supply Raids. Just do a lot of simple missions like Smash & Grabs and Rescue VIP in low-Strength areas.

[archangel]

Anyways, anyone got general Strategic layer tips on how to keep up with alien tech?

Do a lot of missions. Alien research always goes at exactly the same speed, while XCOM progress is based on how many missions you do. The ideal is to have every soldier in your barracks either infiltrating a mission, training in a facility, or working as a haven advisor. If you can keep 3 simultaneous infiltrations going for most of the game, you'll have no trouble keeping up with alien tech.

You don't have to go for the big risky ones like Supply Raids. Just do a lot of simple missions like Smash & Grabs and Rescue VIP in low-Strength areas.

I did just that and I was behind in tech and lacking supply to do much. I had 3 engineers but 1 scientist and got him a bit late (only got rescue engineer missions and could not afford buying scientist due to keeping everyone on Intel). And when I got Laser weapons I could not afford getting it for everyone due to lack of resources and I didn't have scientists/elerium to do advanced laser weapons

[Iridar51]

I like LW2 tactical combat, but I am not a fan of strategic parts.
Any mods that make Strategic parts easier?
I tried to lower difficulty to Veteran but every alien is now weaker in tactical combat as well

Got the same problem. I enjoy the tactical combat, but I dislike the random behind mission discovery, and I don't like being forced to constantly juggle mission difficulty vs. the amount of troops I'm bringing. Just let me always infiltrate to 100%, it should just take larger squads longer, but I always get the baseline difficulty.

[Dwarfling]

Usually when the VIP rescues don't go my way because of timers, or Scientists/Engineers just won't appear I delay the 2nd building (AWC) and use every scrap of money I can muster to buy them out of the Black Market. On my current campaign I had to skip the first Engineer rescue because of a short timer, so I used the money from my first SnG, sold some stuff and bought an Engineer (regretted buying the Officer GTS slot). Usually I end up buying an early Scientist on all my campaigns tho, because I like to accelerate my Laser research more than I like having an early AWC. It means you're gonna have more wound downtime, but I have gotten used to playing with rookies packed with double frags and SMGs on the first month so that I can expand my barracks fast and have more squaddies and LCPLs to queue missions with.

As far as falling behind in tech early game, what I'd do is to try to rely more on (Boomer) Grenadiers and (Fireman) Technicals while I play the catch up game. They play just fine with SMGs and scale more with levels than actual tech until you hit midgame and MK2 ADVENT shows up (too much health). In fact that is my usual general strategy and works whether you rush weapon tech or not, so I end up prioritizing GTS training on those classes after I get my first batch of Shinobi+Specialist out.

[sacho]

Anyways, anyone got general Strategic layer tips on how to keep up with alien tech?

Do a lot of missions. Alien research always goes at exactly the same speed, while XCOM progress is based on how many missions you do. The ideal is to have every soldier in your barracks either infiltrating a mission, training in a facility, or working as a haven advisor. If you can keep 3 simultaneous infiltrations going for most of the game, you'll have no trouble keeping up with alien tech.

You don't have to go for the big risky ones like Supply Raids. Just do a lot of simple missions like Smash & Grabs and Rescue VIP in low-Strength areas.

I did just that and I was behind in tech and lacking supply to do much. I had 3 engineers but 1 scientist and got him a bit late (only got rescue engineer missions and could not afford buying scientist due to keeping everyone on Intel). And when I got Laser weapons I could not afford getting it for everyone due to lack of resources and I didn't have scientists/elerium to do advanced laser weapons

If you infiltrated the supply raid at 60% with 8 guys(~8 days, 60% -> ~5 day supply raid), it means you could have done a >100% supply raid with 5 guys. A 100% supply raid in a strength 1 region is a cake walk compared to what you experienced. This is pretty much like the mission I just finished, I boosted a 4.5 day supply raid to do it with a 5man squad in a 2 strength region and it was a breeze(This was in April, but it was also with LCpls instead of a strong squad). I don't even know which pod was the "command pod", they were all 3-man pods that were easily wiped.

It also seems like the game hit you with some bad RNG, but you didn't take extreme measures to counter it. Are you really saying that you could not muster $150 to purchase a scientist, or that you didn't want to? Just selling the total proceeds from a single smash and grab will get you about as much, not counting all the loot you get from regular missions, specialist hacks and intel packages. Especially thanks to smash and grabs I have way more money in the early game to purchase things, without having to rely on doing low-% supply raids. Doing the supply raid at 100% inf would have also given you enough $ to purchase a scientist.

[chrisb]

I spent some time going through the mission schedules to see where the breakpoints were for the supply raids. Here's a general idea of what to expect. Keep in mind that supply raids have a +1 alert modifier, so the minimum alert is always 2. If the region strength is > 1 then you can overinfiltrate to effectively lower the region strength. For force level, you can roughly equate supply drops with FL as they have similar timings but are not strictly related to each other, just gives a general idea of the timing.

Command Pods
The command pod varies based on mission alert level and force level. As FL rises the command pods become stronger. With high alert, the command pod will also go from an 5 man pod to an 8 man pod.

Alert

Code: Select all

2-4 : No Command Pod
5-6 : 5 Man Command Pod
7+  : 8 Man Command Pod

5 Man Command Pod - Force Level

Code: Select all

1-3   : No specific command pod.
4-7   : Muton, M2 Muton, Shield Bearer, M2 Mec, Archer
8-12  : 2xM2 Muton, Shield Bearer, M2 Mec, M2 Archer
13-16 : M2 Muton, M3 Muton, M3 Shield Bearer, M3 Mec, M2 Archer
17-20 : 2xM3 Muton, M3 Shield Bearer, Sectopod, M2 Archer

8 Man Command Pod - Force Level

Code: Select all

1-3   : No specific command pod.
4-7   : Muton, M2 Muton, Shield Bearer, 2xM2 Mec, Archer, Berserker, Random
8-12  : 2xM2 Muton, Shield Bearer, 2xM2 Mec, M2 Archer, Berserker, Random
13-16 : M2 Muton, M3 Muton, M3 Shield Bearer, 2xM3 Mec, M2 Archer, Berserker, Sectoid Commander
17-20 : 2xM3 Muton, M3 Shield Bearer, 2xSectopod, M2 Archer, Berserker, Sectoid Commander

Encounter Size
As usual, the encounter size increases with alert, there's a rough guide of the encounter sizes to expect at each alert level. The variation at different alert levels is because there are often 2-3 possible schedules at each alert level and some are harder than others even within the same alert.

Code: Select all

2 : 10-11
3 : 12
4 : 14-15
5 : 16-17
6 : 17-20
7 : 20-26
8 : 24-25
9 : 26

[archangel]

Do a lot of missions. Alien research always goes at exactly the same speed, while XCOM progress is based on how many missions you do. The ideal is to have every soldier in your barracks either infiltrating a mission, training in a facility, or working as a haven advisor. If you can keep 3 simultaneous infiltrations going for most of the game, you'll have no trouble keeping up with alien tech.

You don't have to go for the big risky ones like Supply Raids. Just do a lot of simple missions like Smash & Grabs and Rescue VIP in low-Strength areas.

I did just that and I was behind in tech and lacking supply to do much. I had 3 engineers but 1 scientist and got him a bit late (only got rescue engineer missions and could not afford buying scientist due to keeping everyone on Intel). And when I got Laser weapons I could not afford getting it for everyone due to lack of resources and I didn't have scientists/elerium to do advanced laser weapons

If you infiltrated the supply raid at 60% with 8 guys(~8 days, 60% -> ~5 day supply raid), it means you could have done a >100% supply raid with 5 guys. A 100% supply raid in a strength 1 region is a cake walk compared to what you experienced. This is pretty much like the mission I just finished, I boosted a 4.5 day supply raid to do it with a 5man squad in a 2 strength region and it was a breeze(This was in April, but it was also with LCpls instead of a strong squad). I don't even know which pod was the "command pod", they were all 3-man pods that were easily wiped.

It also seems like the game hit you with some bad RNG, but you didn't take extreme measures to counter it. Are you really saying that you could not muster $150 to purchase a scientist, or that you didn't want to? Just selling the total proceeds from a single smash and grab will get you about as much, not counting all the loot you get from regular missions, specialist hacks and intel packages. Especially thanks to smash and grabs I have way more money in the early game to purchase things, without having to rely on doing low-% supply raids. Doing the supply raid at 100% inf would have also given you enough $ to purchase a scientist.

I had 63% infiltration with using Intel Boost. I was nowhere near to 100%. This was a Supply Raid in May and best one yet, I skipped all previous Supply Raids and Troop Columns (which I only got two even with having two regions full on Intel for a long time).

And yea, I didn't spend money early on Scientist and didn't get a mission to get one (well except one but that one appeared with less than 1 day left) early. I think I got my first one in April. And then bought another one.

[archangel]

I spent some time going through the mission schedules to see where the breakpoints were for the supply raids. Here's a general idea of what to expect. Keep in mind that supply raids have a +1 alert modifier, so the minimum alert is always 2. If the region strength is > 1 then you can overinfiltrate to effectively lower the region strength. For force level, you can roughly equate supply drops with FL as they have similar timings but are not strictly related to each other, just gives a general idea of the timing.

Command Pods
The command pod varies based on mission alert level and force level. As FL rises the command pods become stronger. With high alert, the command pod will also go from an 5 man pod to an 8 man pod.

Alert

Code: Select all

2-4 : No Command Pod
5-6 : 5 Man Command Pod
7+  : 8 Man Command Pod

5 Man Command Pod - Force Level

Code: Select all

1-3   : No specific command pod.
4-7   : Muton, M2 Muton, Shield Bearer, M2 Mec, Archer
8-12  : 2xM2 Muton, Shield Bearer, M2 Mec, M2 Archer
13-16 : M2 Muton, M3 Muton, M3 Shield Bearer, M3 Mec, M2 Archer
17-20 : 2xM3 Muton, M3 Shield Bearer, Sectopod, M2 Archer

8 Man Command Pod - Force Level

Code: Select all

1-3   : No specific command pod.
4-7   : Muton, M2 Muton, Shield Bearer, 2xM2 Mec, Archer, Berserker, Random
8-12  : 2xM2 Muton, Shield Bearer, 2xM2 Mec, M2 Archer, Berserker, Random
13-16 : M2 Muton, M3 Muton, M3 Shield Bearer, 2xM3 Mec, M2 Archer, Berserker, Sectoid Commander
17-20 : 2xM3 Muton, M3 Shield Bearer, 2xSectopod, M2 Archer, Berserker, Sectoid Commander

Encounter Size
As usual, the encounter size increases with alert, there's a rough guide of the encounter sizes to expect at each alert level. The variation at different alert levels is because there are often 2-3 possible schedules at each alert level and some are harder than others even within the same alert.

Code: Select all

2 : 10-11
3 : 12
4 : 14-15
5 : 16-17
6 : 17-20
7 : 20-26
8 : 24-25
9 : 26

Ok, going by this data, I got a 8 man pod from 4-7 force level in May. I don't see how this is balanced. They killed Supply Runs for under 100% infiltration. 0% Supply runs were the problem, why kill the above 50% as well?!
EDIT: In my opinion game needs another group for 4-5 FL and leave 6-7 FL as it is now. Before this mission I would run into single Mutons or single MECs as toughest enemies and then it jumps to Muton M2 i MEC M2 in a big group.

[chrisb]

Ok, going by this data, I got a 8 man pod from 4-7 force level in May. I don't see how this is balanced. They killed Supply Runs for under 100% infiltration. 0% Supply runs were the problem, why kill the above 50% as well?!
EDIT: In my opinion game needs another group for 4-5 FL and leave 6-7 FL as it is now. Before this mission I would run into single Mutons or single MECs as toughest enemies and then it jumps to Muton M2 i MEC M2 in a big group.

The pod sizes aren't based on force level, they are based on alert level. Force determines what is in a pod and Alert determines how many.

Overall I would say low alert supply raids got a whole lot easier. They used to have a +3 alert modifier, which is now +1, bringing the minimum alert to 2 instead of 4. Anything that is in alert 2-4 should be easy to handle with a squad of 5, making them much easier to infiltrate and boost.

[Kyrsoh]

I am at the end of July in my current campaign.
I contacted 4 regions (fifth is in progress), liberated two of them now.
I have 48 soldiers (6 squads of six plus additional support members for them to specific missions), so I do 3-4 missions at a time and my soldiers often see combat as advisors as well.
I have laser weapons and predator armour but half of my soldiers are permanently underequipped for hard missions. This is normal, we are a guerilla force, not a brand new, shiny military organization.

I suggest Veteran difficulty for everybody who do not want to rush things - it is difficult as hell, no need for more suffering.
I tried a Supply Raid in May, just like the OP did. After a long firefight I saw the command pod with my concealed shinobi and I just retreated behind a rock and called the Skyranger to evac. I killed 16 aliens, took some loot - not a bad thing with mostly ballistic weapons.
Troop Colums are much more easier and you can detect them if you play the strategic layer wisely.
Most of our problems come from the simple fact that we are taking missions in wrong regions, do not manage ADVENT strenght well and our supplies come from random things. Take the Vulture tactic from GTS, do 13-22 missions in a month (plus the Randevous) and just sell the loot at the Black Market! It is a miracle way to support your research and production.

[sacho]

I had 63% infiltration with using Intel Boost. I was nowhere near to 100%. This was a Supply Raid in May and best one yet, I skipped all previous Supply Raids and Troop Columns (which I only got two even with having two regions full on Intel for a long time).

You said you tried doing it with an 8-man squad, right? That means your base infiltration was >8 days. If you had tried infiltrating a 5-man squad you would have been over 100%.

[archangel]

I had 63% infiltration with using Intel Boost. I was nowhere near to 100%. This was a Supply Raid in May and best one yet, I skipped all previous Supply Raids and Troop Columns (which I only got two even with having two regions full on Intel for a long time).

You said you tried doing it with an 8-man squad, right? That means your base infiltration was >8 days. If you had tried infiltrating a 5-man squad you would have been over 100%.

Maybe but I had no idea what awaited me and I certainly didn't expect this shit I got.

[WanWhiteWolf]

I had 63% infiltration with using Intel Boost. I was nowhere near to 100%. This was a Supply Raid in May and best one yet, I skipped all previous Supply Raids and Troop Columns (which I only got two even with having two regions full on Intel for a long time).

You said you tried doing it with an 8-man squad, right? That means your base infiltration was >8 days. If you had tried infiltrating a 5-man squad you would have been over 100%.

Maybe but I had no idea what awaited me and I certainly didn't expect this shit I got.

I don't want to poke the bear but ....now you know.

I find overall okay-ish the new concept. Definitely better than the old one where you HAD to zerg the supply raids and completely break any balance progression-wise.

What is - from my point of view - not so good:
- RNG in getting engineer / scientist earlier; I had a situation where I didn't get any of them until June (lol). Their prices on the market is to expensive relative to your "income" in the first months.
- Lack of specific corpses. Now that supply raids have less corpses, your research will be gated (unless you are lucky). At least in my case.

- You can solve the first problem with the mod that gives you 1 scientiest + 1 engineer at start. Less RNG involved that can screw you start.
- The second problem ....no solution yet. Pray to the RNG that you get the corpses in time.