Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

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Franzy
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:05 am

Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Franzy »

After trying stealth approach in various missions I'd like to share some tips for other "stealthy basterds" trying to adapt to 1.3 from 1.2.
Note: everything is possible with savescumming, these tips are for ironman/bronzeman and just players who don't like to load a lot. Mostly from Commander/Legend difficulty perpective, would work for lower difficulties too.

Patch 1.3 brought upon us a number of changes that made stealth difficult (but not impossible).
- More pods (= more chances to be detected)
- Increased evac delay
- Highly randomized evac position, which can easily be in the opposite corner of the map from the objective
- Drones tend to patrol along map edges, while most other pods hug objective.
- Slightly higher detection ranges & generally nerfed stealth abilities
However, we are up to the challenge!

Generally there are 3 type of stealth approaches:
1) Pure stealth. 1-2 guys, usually specialist and/or shinobi officer. Avoiding combat and detection at all.
2) Distraction. Specialist + Saboteur, which can be a suicide rookie with grenades or a non-suicide Grenadier or Technical (now when you launch a rocket enemies alerted to explosion, not you!) + an optional but highly recommended shinobi officer.
3) Covering fire. It's a new tactic of semi-stealth as now bringing 4 guys instead of 1-2 barely affects infiltration time. Basically you have your specialist to hack door/chest, an officer to command him and 2 other guys to cover his retreat (you want guys with area control, like grenadiers with smoke/flashbangs, gunner ideally with iron curtain, technicals etc). Generally you set up your squad so you can ambush a pod (that guards the objective) and at the same turn hack the objective and start a retreat toward evac. Resist urge to actually fight enemies, just control them and run outta there. The best thing, you can actually plan for variant 1 or 2, your other two guys are insurance in case something goes wrong. Only works with fixed evac though.

Jailbreak
Pure stealth: not viable anymore in 99% of cases. Evac is usually far away across the map, enemy pods like to patrol jail cell area.
Distraction: 20% chance of success, high chance of catastrophic failure (wipe). Only works if evac is nearby. Jailers pod seems to be hard to pull out from the building with distractions (mayhaps walls block sounds???) Not recommended.
Cover fire: did not try actually, but might work. Again Evac should be nearby for this.
Verdict: forget stealth, go loud with 4-5 soldiers, safer that way. RNFs start ticking at the turn 1 now, so no real reason to even stealth towards objective. Just engage enemies at 1st or 2nd turn and push towards cells.

Free transported prisoner
Very similar to what we had in 1.2 actually. Pure stealth possible, but very risky. Distractions work fine though, but you have to get lucky with enemy positions. Bring smoke!!! Cover fire best way to go, as pod patrolling around the van is easily ambushed. Frost grenade (from Alien Hunters DLC) works wonders here. Remeber standing near the closed door in the back of the van with your VIP counts as peeking around the cover! Better open the door with your concealed shinobi first.

Extract
Unlike 1.2, now we have RNFs waiting for you right from the start, dropping around turn 6-8. And yes, they WILL drop on the head of your revealed VIP. On top of that civilians now can not be commanded or OscarMiked. So single shinobi officer tactic works no longer (unless you get real lucky). Distraction could work, but you need a technical or grenadier who rolled phantom in AWC, or send in multiple shinobies with grenades. I would ony recommend this for really important missions though, like a liberation chain. Combat is better option here 99% of the time.

Hack chest/laptop in train or facility
These are actually almost unchanged from 1.2. The only real difference - increased evac delay. But there are few tactics to combat this:
1) Standard pure stealth (solo specialist or specialist + shinobi, ideally officer)
Approach objective along the map edge. Find a spot where you can hack objective remotely (Gotcha again ruleZZZZ!!!) AND where you are not in the line of view of any enemy AND where you can blue move (or yellow move if you have an officer with you) in a line-blocking high cover (building, van, fence). You need to start your turn with your specialist in the spot and there should be no enemies in his line of sight. This may take a few turns waiting for an opportunity and a bit of luck. But remeber you have 8 turns, of which you only need 3 to get to the spot usually (plus officer intervention). So in about 75% cases it can be done, almost safely, especially after you get the feel how enemy patrols generally move (comes with game experience). After retreat - you must not activate any pods! - throw evac and hunker for 6-7 turns it takes to arrive. Remember, after you hack the objective nearby pods (if not all) are alerted of the spot where you hacked from and rush there to investigate, so your hiding spot must be out of sight vs. possible directions enemies might come from. Usually it is something along the map edge. And if the opportunity to hack will not manifest until timer runs out you can just safely retreat in the opposite corner of the map and extract. I recommend this tactic if you don't have time or manpower to infiltrate 5-6 people for combat.
2) Quasi-Suicide specialist tactic. I never tried this one, but got the idea from xwynns' video. Apparently you need a specialist with PCS "Life support" which gives +3 turns to bleedout time, and a shinobi (shadowstep ability required, officer not necessary). Position your soldiers nearby objective. Run specialist towards a spot where he can hack remotely (ignore enemy presence and cover). Throw evac under your feet and hack the objective. Sit there to be killed. When you have just one turn left bleeding evac should arrive (so it only works if evac is 6 turns or lower). Move in with your shinobi (most enemies would be on overwatch, hence shadowstep requirement), pick up your buddy and evac. Mission accomplished! And your specialist is out of action for a month, but who cares! If evac delay is more than 6 turns you will probably have to sacrifice a specialist. When he dies Data will (probably) drop as an item that you will (probably) be able to pick up and evacuate. So if you have a really important mission (blocking nasty event for example) and too little time left you may try this underinfiltrated, as this tactics may work even with swarming enemy presence.

Destroy Relay
Two snipers and a shinobi scout can still do that without activating pods (unless Relay is wierdly positioned where you can not get a line of sight on it from across the map, in that case just abort the mission). Just be sure to have smoke grenades on your snipers and their rifles equipped with best available silencers (to not attract pods walking around).

Capture/Kill VIP (vehicle)
Capture is much more difficult now as shinobis can not reduce VIP visibility to zero (need confirmation on this one). If you want to capture, go in loud or cover fire/distraction (did not try those myself yet).
Good old sniper kill still works. Be aware though that all enemies will rush toward your sniper after the VIP is dead (even if you did not activate any pods!), so commanding him after shot to retreat towards evac might be a good idea.

Capture/Kill VIP (building)
Did not encounter this in 1.3 yet. Should probably expect pods bodyguarding VIP.

Smash&Grab
Do not even try :)
stefan3iii
Posts: 319
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by stefan3iii »

As someone who stealthed everything in 1.2, I'm basically not stealthing in 1.3, outside of rookie/squaddie suicide missions. Even the suicide missions are a little hairy, though I haven't failed one yet.

The primary reason for stealthing in 1.2 for me was that I could do way more missions simultaneously with fewer soldiers, so the "Covering Fire" strategy doesn't hold much lure, doing the mission with 4 soldiers instead of 5 and just blasting through it doesn't seem worth it.

I haven't attempted a solo or duo specialist/shinobi stealth mission, the solo drones floating about and long evac times make things too scary. Hack Workstations are better just suicided, and I haven't seen many Data Recovery missions. I think stealthing these missions might become more relevant later in the game when I have disposable shinobis and specialists I'm willing to risk.

Anyways, really glad that stealth isn't an obvious winning strategy anymore, good job Pavonis.
Dlareh
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Dlareh »

You can train leftover rookies with junk stats into expendable specialists you don't care about, for later use
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
trihero
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by trihero »

In the original thread I would appreciate a tldr like "these are the types of missions which it's still reliable/worth stealthing" because almost every mission type listed there it seems like stealthing doesn't work anymore.

I have found that there are 2 missions which meet the above criteria: sniping the relay and VIP are still somewhat stealth viable; if you bring 2 snipers and 1 shinobi usually the 2 snipers can handle any solo drone patrols on the outskirts and then squadsight the objective once your shinobi spots it. Anything else though seems like it's not worth the effort of stealthing. And this is still assuming pretty good infiltration like very light at the worst.
Daergar
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Daergar »

I've got simple pleasures, so I just tend to go loud early even if I only have a few soldiers and just bash my way through the mission.

The only difference being that the explosives and flames come into play even if it kills something, unlike missions where you got time to spare.

I still bring a shinobi on every single adventure if at all possible, the ability to scout the battlefield remains imperative since you can move soldiers into the exact spots where they are just one tile away from being detected, letting you set up ambushes effectively.

I'm not sure if the "you will be seen here"-tile marker is default to LW or if it's one of the commonly used mods, either way it made moving your pawns so much easier.
Tuhalu
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Tuhalu »

Daergar wrote:I'm not sure if the "you will be seen here"-tile marker is default to LW or if it's one of the commonly used mods, either way it made moving your pawns so much easier.
It's Gotcha Again mod. Yes, it's amazing.
Dwarfling
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:16 pm

Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Dwarfling »

The only mission I've been able to fully stealth so far was a Hack with a Highway Overpass. And I had brought a fighting squad. In retrospective maybe I shoulda killed them all for the loot.
LordYanaek
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by LordYanaek »

I haven't stealthed a lot of missions but noticed that 4 guys squads can really open missions you wouldn't have time to infiltrate with 5 and those squads usually require some finesse if not pure stealth so i'm running much more half-stealth missions than pure stealth. Once i did a 3 guys liberate VIP from vehicle for a liberation mission with full ballistic SMGs (all my laser weapons were used by 3 active squads) and ended up killing most of the initial map (including my first Muton) before dashing away from the RNFs. This involved some luck with a double drone control (i was totally ready to sacrifice some guys) but gave me an idea for a 4 man squad that should probably work well for those half stealth missions where you want to kill a few guys before f...ing out (probably best used on fixed evac city center missions)
  • Specialist. Key perk is Trojan, Failsafe is very good, Field Surgeon can help reduce the inevitable wound times. Hack must be as high as possible. Good move to escape is useful.
  • Stunner Assault. Key perk : Electroshock, other stun perks are very useful. I can't always count on a Drone so having my own source of stun is definitely useful. Being able to 100% control a target (disorient on miss) every other turn is a nice guarantee. He can be your officer as he will mostly be idle every other turn if he's equipped with SMG.
  • 2 Shinobis. Sword builds. You can take Lone Wolf instead of Blademaster for the defense but i like the reliable +10 aim and +1 damage of blademaster. Cutthroat is probably very useful.
The specialist will remove solo drones as a successful haywire doesn't reveal you and in case a fight starts and a drone is nearby he can try to control it. He will also of course open/hack objectives and remove towers if possible. When you get near the objective you must be ready to deal with a pod fast. I noticed pods are rarely more than 3 guys so your shinobis kill 2 of them while the assault controls the 3rd unless it's a mech and the specialist takes him down. You can probably kill a pod or two before you need to flee. Disoriented Mutons don't counterattack so you might even be able to take those down.
An advantage of that squad compared to traditional "burst damage" squads is that most of your kills will be silent and you won't draw other pods. Those that wander your way will probably still be in green alert and won't shoot you. You also don't need any special gear for quite some time as basic sword stay relevant for quite some time (but you'll need better blades if you want to keep using this squad past early June which can be an issue). They also have very fast infiltration with no heavy weapons and SMGs on everyone while still being able to kill some guys quickly for the rewards and a safer escape (it's easier to flee when nobody's following you ;) )
Jadiel
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Jadiel »

LordYanaek wrote:The specialist will remove solo drones as a successful haywire doesn't reveal you and in case a fight starts and a drone is nearby he can try to control it.
Does Trojan deal enough damage to kill a drone? How much damage does it deal?
trihero
Posts: 1099
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by trihero »

Based on the tooltip, Trojan does up to 8 damage (ignores armor), depending on your hack versus their defense. I don't know the formula. I've never seen it not kill a 4 hp drone, and xwynns in one of his 1.3 videos killed a 5 hp drone with it.

Theoretically the formula shouldn't be very complicated, my guess is like for every 10 hacking points you exceed their defense, it's 1 damage, up to max 8. Or every 15 hacking points. There's no reason it's not something simple like that.
Tuhalu
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Tuhalu »

It's actually slightly complicated.

Trojan makes 8 d100 rolls. It then compares those rolls to 50 + AttackerHackStat - DefenderHackDefense. For every roll under that number, it does a point of damage.

As long as you beat the targets hacking defense by at least 50, you'll do the full 8 damage. Otherwise, it's between 0 and 8.
Dlareh
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Dlareh »

Interesting. I've only ever given Trojan to moderately high-hack specialists, so never seen it fail to kill a drone.

Low hack specialists go medical ... even if they're Sentinel/EV so no field medic, I find medical for 2 charges is worthwhile

Which reminds me, Scanning Protocol seems too weak. It has its uses, but in practice... meh, I prefer Trojan on a stealther.

I think Scanning Protocol should be buffed to maybe also give a permanent, passive video feed equivalent (+3 LOS or something like that)
Excitement continues to build as city centers across the globe prepare for the latest incarnation of Groundhog Day.
LordYanaek
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by LordYanaek »

I never failed to kill a sentry drone with Trojan but both of my Trojan specialists had high base hack and both got an Enemy Protocol reward so they are very good hackers and have 100% chance to disable those drones. One is actually built for overwatch and part of a more combative squad but I never regretted taking that perk for her as i've removed lone drones this way, allowing the squad to progress further undetected and ambush the first real pod. The other one have crappy aim and usually goes to more stealthy missions and Trojan proved very useful.
Tuhalu wrote:It's actually slightly complicated.
Thanks for the math :)
So damage doesn't scale with better gremlins? It will always be 8 points at most (no way to kill Hunter Drones then)
Jadiel
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Jadiel »

Don't better gremlins increase your hacking?
LordYanaek
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by LordYanaek »

Yes, but more hacking will only improve the chance of doing 8 damage, it won't allow you to get to 9 which is the Hunter Drones' current HP in my campaign
Daergar
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Re: Stealth in 1.3 - tips&tricks

Post by Daergar »

LordYanaek wrote:Yes, but more hacking will only improve the chance of doing 8 damage, it won't allow you to get to 9 which is the Hunter Drones' current HP in my campaign
Very good to know, thanks for the heads-up.
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