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I'm thinking of switching many of my technicals and grenadiers from rifles to SMG's because it should increase their mobility and decrease their detection and infiltration times, right? I've never done this before, but I'm realizing now just how few times they actually use their rifles over their special abilities. And when they do fire their rifle, they aren't that reliable with them anyway. What do you guys think?

This is pretty standard, for exactly the reasons you lay out - they have better things to be doing than taking standard shots in most cases, and benefit heavily from the extra mobility. I'd say go for it.

Lemme put it this way.

Only rangers need rifles, and then not even all of them. You can build a pump action ranger and have them equip SMGs also.

Every now and then I might slap an old lower tier rifle on my specialist, but it isn't often.

The best way to think of it is that there are four primary weapon classes, and four secondary weapon classes.

The primary weapon classes are Ranger, Sharpshooter, Gunner, and Assault. For the most part they'll be spending their turns shooting.

The secondary weapon classes are Specialist, Shinobi, Grenadier, and Technical. While they still use their primary weapon fairly often, the real reason you bring them along is for their secondary.

There are exceptions, and there are special builds which change this up, but it's a good rule of thumb for all the secondary weapon classes to run with SMGs, because the +3 mobility is more valuable than a little extra damage on a gun you don't really care about.

Depends on their aim

Grenadiers and Technicals are pretty shitty at shooting - especially Grenadiers - and it's hard to come up with some kind of viable middle tree 'shooty spec' without a major overhau

But at the end of the day if they have good aim you probably want them to use a rifle unless their mobility is super low - you want them to be able to do something once in a while or have overwatch shots that aren't garbage at long range if nothing else

Those random tech/grenadier overwatch shots might be the difference between a yellow alert pod shitting on one of your exposed soldiers, or getting an overwatch hit/graze - and with an SMG they're basically worthless on overwatch

Yep, low aim and/or low move will often (not always) get smg for infiltrate time and mobility

The 8-man GOp squad actively wants high aim grenadiers who do nothing but Rapid Deploy some Dense Smoke and shoot or occasionally launch an incendiary (or air dropped explosives). No shooty perks needed, just high aim. If you play with AWC perks revealed, you can select a grenadier who will get shooty perks if you really insist they have perks to deserve a rifle. Technicals deserve a rifle just for having Shredder. But that's mid-game in a fucked up doctrine where standing still and tanking 8 enemies at a time is considered ordinary even on timed missions.

In the earlygame and even later if they have bad aim (unless you have some 100 Aim officer with Lead by Example and Firing Discipline), you don't want technicals or grenadiers to have rifles.

Saph7 wrote:The best way to think of it is that there are four primary weapon classes, and four secondary weapon classes.

The primary weapon classes are Ranger, Sharpshooter, Gunner, and Assault. For the most part they'll be spending their turns shooting.

The secondary weapon classes are Specialist, Shinobi, Grenadier, and Technical. While they still use their primary weapon fairly often, the real reason you bring them along is for their secondary.

There are exceptions, and there are special builds which change this up, but it's a good rule of thumb for all the secondary weapon classes to run with SMGs, because the +3 mobility is more valuable than a little extra damage on a gun you don't really care about.

I sometimes wonder if SMGs should just be nerfed. Or at least, make it so that the newer tiers (laser, mag, etc) maybe offer mobility, and the base tier only gives +1 mobility or something. It probably doesn't make sense story wise, but there is something weird about the fact that a Stutter Mag isn't a whole lot better than a basic SMG, since most of what I care about is the +3 mobility. Hell if I could get +4 or 5 mobility without bringing a gun at all I'd probably do that.

I might build an upgraded SMG for my first hit and run shinobi, or at coil I start building them since that is usually when i start rolling in supplies from drops.

SMGs are already shitty enough at overwatch, taking long range shots, and their abysmal ammo count.

I do the same thing with my Grenadier xand technicals. I give them SMGs almost always. I view Grenadier and technicals as consumable classes. You bring them in for their consumable items. And the ability to destroy cover. Their ability to shoot comes second only to their ability to destroy things or blow things up. Although if you have one with really good name then go for it but more often than not I tend to put my lower and a soldier's with decent Mobility as technicals or grenadiers. Also if they have really high Mobility fire technicals are pretty amazing at controlling large groups of enemies

Among the let's play i watched one is using a ton of SMG, but he is also using many significant mods so I didn't bother look closer any special choices like that. For sure this thread is a bit a chock because it's really out of my intuition to pick a short range weak weapon even for a significant speed bonus.

That's definitely interesting to read it in posts, and it's definitely something I need try and test.

You can even do some amazing things with SMGs sometimes, a close combat Ranger with immense mobility (Rie got equipped with an SMG, has a Speed PCS and high innate mobility, she's sitting at 21 mobility when without items) is super fun to run in and hit stuff in the face, particularly if you can Both Barrels.
Also a hilarious note on the count of Point Blank/Both Barrels: Apparently the sawn-off shotgun is considered a pistol, so firing it takes only one action if you have Quickdraw.

JulianSkies wrote:You can even do some amazing things with SMGs sometimes, a close combat Ranger with immense mobility (Rie got equipped with an SMG, has a Speed PCS and high innate mobility, she's sitting at 21 mobility when without items) is super fun to run in and hit stuff in the face, particularly if you can Both Barrels.
Also a hilarious note on the count of Point Blank/Both Barrels: Apparently the sawn-off shotgun is considered a pistol, so firing it takes only one action if you have Quickdraw.

Gee, and it's the only pistol skill that can be of any use with the very close range and very low amount of ammo?

I started use some Assault not with SMG but with Assault Rifle. But now I think of it, focus on the crit and use a SMG is something to try.

EDIT: Once because of miss click I used Spider Suit for an Assault and he did the mission very well, even used once the grappling hook for extra mobility. I never did it again, but Wraith Suit and SMG with a commando is something I should also try.

EDIT2: About the pistol skill, move, run and gun, sawn-off shotgun shot with Quickdraw and run? The would be cool. Ha ha.

So to comment more about using SMG, but with Assault.

It's definitely interesting with a mobile Electroshock build (no Shotgun skill, some Electroshock skills and Chain Lightning, Rapid Fire, and Extra Conditioning for extra mobility). I used 1 Assault in 4 missions, and it's definitely coherent. Well last mission was a bit hot and he got almost killed, but the Spider Armor don't worth it and I should have use best protection. I sill have to consider Wraith.

For this specific Build, let say most Electroshock skills and Chain Lightning, Rapid Fire, and Extra Conditioning, this is almost more coherent to use a SMG, or at least an excellent alternative. For sure many builds won't fit as well to SMG. Electroshock is rather close range and when you want use an uber Chain Lightning it's much better do it close range to ensure hit most if not all enemies around, so the extra mobility fits very well.

Im' curious to try with a non shotgun critical build but Extra Conditioning and Rapid Fire instead of Aggression and Gun and Fire The point is Rapid Fire is almost a requirement for the SMG to compensate the lower damages and increase the chance to make at least one critical. this build is Lightning Reflexes, Close and Personal, Killer Instinct, Extra Conditioning, Rapid Fire, Bring 'Em On, Lethal.

So I put SMG's on all my Grenadiers, some specialists and obviously Shinobi's. However I use Shotguns on Technicals because I want them for tanking in your face damage. I also cannot stand Rockets they are just in my opinion shit but Flames are fantastic, however flames require me to be in your face and when I'm in your face I'm wanting three things, firstly lots of protection so Armour, Vests and Plating (so no space for explosives) secondly the ability to cause big damage when I really must, which shotguns do in abundance and finally the ability to keep moving and shooting which by premise of having more Ammo shotguns allow me to do when a SMG really doesn't. I go tend to put Mobility PCS on these guys however because as has been said movement is critical to these guys..