LW2 1.5 Specialist Builds

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Icarus
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Icarus »

gimrah wrote: I've tried this but it doesn't work well. A sharp is too slow and has too high detection radius without an SMG to be good as a scout, unless he gets ghostwalker and/or covert in AWC and you give him a speed PCS.
Damn, forgot about that build having a higher detection radius. Good point. Will use one with the proper AWC perks, though.

So, regarding specialists: would use them as officers either when you don't use a spotter that's to be concealed all the time, or when on untimed missions where the spotter usually is too far away.
artifixer
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by artifixer »

Jacke wrote: Specialist React/Medic
Sentinel - Field Surgeon / Interference - Medical Protocol - Ever Vigilant - Cool Under Pressure - Full Override - Restoration
I have one remark for you to think around about this build.

In my opinion any OW-built soldier without Covering Fire feels not complete and very unreliable. Thing is, overwatch mechanics in XCOM 2 (and Long War 2) by default give a lot of opportunities to avoid being shot, as it does not trigger unless target travels 2 tiles in a row in your field of view.

Every time you put someone in overwatch, you don't do an action you can easily predict and instead rely on a supposed enemy activity to trigger your fire (preferably more than once), but there are a lot of ways for enemies to harm you without ever triggering overwatch, unless you have Covering Fire. So it's OK to put someone on overwatch when there's nothing else to do, but then you don't really need specialization for that type of activity. And if you actually specialize your soldier to go for overwatch, you really should take every perk that make this action reliable. And for that I feel Covering Fire is even more important than Cool Under Pressure, because aim bonus is useless if you don't shoot.
gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by gimrah »

artifixer wrote:
Jacke wrote: Specialist React/Medic
Sentinel - Field Surgeon / Interference - Medical Protocol - Ever Vigilant - Cool Under Pressure - Full Override - Restoration
I have one remark for you to think around about this build.

In my opinion any OW-built soldier without Covering Fire feels not complete and very unreliable. Thing is, overwatch mechanics in XCOM 2 (and Long War 2) by default give a lot of opportunities to avoid being shot, as it does not trigger unless target travels 2 tiles in a row in your field of view.

Every time you put someone in overwatch, you don't do an action you can easily predict and instead rely on a supposed enemy activity to trigger your fire (preferably more than once), but there are a lot of ways for enemies to harm you without ever triggering overwatch, unless you have Covering Fire. So it's OK to put someone on overwatch when there's nothing else to do, but then you don't really need specialization for that type of activity. And if you actually specialize your soldier to go for overwatch, you really should take every perk that make this action reliable. And for that I feel Covering Fire is even more important than Cool Under Pressure, because aim bonus is useless if you don't shoot.
CF definitely has value and I pick it up on my OW rangers. But you'll get plenty of use out of OW without it, especially once you get EV and can run to flank. I think it's entirely valid to pick up Field Surgeon instead. Especially on your A-team long missions specialist: you want to keep that team available as much as possible.
Noober
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Noober »

CF is an awfull skil for ow spec as it force you to shot target IN COVER (-45% chance to hit and almost 0% to crit) instead of shooting moving target with like 80% to hit and 50% to crit.
It's an ok on low aim grenadier as AWC skill due to -10 to hit penalty but not for good aim OW moster.
gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by gimrah »

Noober wrote:CF is an awfull skil for ow spec as it force you to shot target IN COVER (-45% chance to hit and almost 0% to crit) instead of shooting moving target with like 80% to hit and 50% to crit.
It's an ok on low aim grenadier as AWC skill due to -10 to hit penalty but not for good aim OW moster.

I would disagree with that. I've run it both ways and CF works out better than you'd think, especially as you have sentinel anyway so it often doesn't matter much if one shot gets burned. Things move if they are going to move before they shoot. And when you get to a high level with CuP and an elite hair trigger, you will actually hit a lot of those targets in cover. And you want covering fire against MECs.

The main thing is to remember which guys have CF and which don't. Otherwise you do what I did: area suppress two MECs with your spec overwatching them, thinking you'll get a shot on each when they try to shoot - and then nothing happens and you curse a lot.
Jacke
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Jacke »

Here I am, sitting comfortably with one build each for Ranger and Gunner. And you keep bring up stuff that has me tweak *yet again* my Specialist build. Or at least the OW 2nd Specialist. :)
Noober wrote:CF is an awfull skil for ow spec as it force you to shot target IN COVER (-45% chance to hit and almost 0% to crit) instead of shooting moving target with like 80% to hit and 50% to crit. [ Mentions the -10 to hit penalty if target of an Covering Fire shot. ]
gimrah wrote:I would disagree with that. I've run it both ways and CF works out better than you'd think, especially as you have sentinel anyway so it often doesn't matter much if one shot gets burned. Things move if they are going to move before they shoot. And when you get to a high level with CuP and an elite hair trigger, you will actually hit a lot of those targets in cover. And you want covering fire against MECs.
I'd already decided to swap out the 2nd Field Surgeon on the OW Specialist. If it doesn't stack all the time, it's a waste at least some of the time. Was going to try out Interference. But I can remove ADVENT Overwatch in a number of other ways.

I'll try Covering Fire on the OW build and see how it plays out. Already had my first MEC in mid April (same as Xwynns' Season 3). Took him down more by luck.


Specialist React/Medic
Sentinel - Covering Fire - Medical Protocol - Ever Vigilant - Cool Under Pressure - Full Override - Restoration


This made me think of a question. How is running Full Override without Failsafe?

But I need more Specialists. Just had a bad mission with Charlie Squad: Cpl Specialist, Cpl Shinobi, LCpl Assault, Cpl Grenadier, and a Rookie. The Assault and Rookie got promotions. The Corporals Three all got gravely wounded and out-of-action for 24 to 29 days. But the 3 jailed Resistance Personnel got out okay. Currently saving for the AWC.

And I discovered a bug: don't use Revival Protocol on an unconscious soldier being carried. The carrier will put down the unconscious soldier. Then the Revival Protocol charge will be consumed and make the carrier pick up the unconscious soldier. The unconscious soldier will still be unconscious. May be a side effect of another mod (Stabilize Me! ?).

Had just added a 5th Specialist Officer starting a fifth squad, as I was starting to run 5 missions at a time. Now I've got to start on Overwatch Specialists too.

gimrah wrote:The main thing is to remember which guys have CF and which don't. Otherwise you do what I did: area suppress two MECs with your spec overwatching them, thinking you'll get a shot on each when they try to shoot - and then nothing happens and you curse a lot.
My troops wear colour-coded uniforms (mods like Character Pool Uniforms or Uniform Manager make it easy). Primary colour for the soldier class. Secondary colour for the build.

Here's the current version. Most of the builds aren't in use but may have been tested sometime in the past.
Spoiler: show

Code: Select all

Type        Colour # for Main Armor Secondary Armor Weapon

Rookie                Tan                      3  3  5
Assault               Yellow                  21  3  5
Assault Stunner       Yellow / Electric Blue  21 73  5
Grenadier Hybrid      Red                      7  3  5
Grenadier Gunsmoke    Red / Grey               7 14  5
Grenadier Sapper      Red / Black              7 91  5
Grenadier Flashbanger Red / Electic Blue       7 73  5
Gunner                Dark Green              29  3  5
Gunner Tank           Dark Green / Grey       29 14  5
Gunner Reaction       Dark Green / Dark Red   29 81  5
Ranger                Green                    1  3  5
Ranger Reaction       Green / Dark Red         1 81  5
Sharpshooter Officer  Grey / Blue Green        6 97  5
Sharpshooter Sniper   Grey / Black             6 91  5
Sharpshooter Spotter  Grey / Grey              6 14  5
Sharpshooter Snapshot Grey / Dark Red          6 81  5
Shinobi               Black                   94  3  5
Shinobi Scout         Black / Black           94 91  5
Shinobi Tank          Black / Grey            94 14  5
Shinobi Blade         Black / Dark Red        94 81  5
Specialist            Blue Grey               40  3  5
Specialist Officer    Blue Grey / Blue Green  40 97  5
Specialist Reaction   Blue Grey / Dark Red    40 81  5
Specialist Medic      White / White           91 94  5
Specialist Hacker     Blue Grey / Dark Blue   40 75  5
Technical Haven       Orange                  14  3  5
Technical Officer     Orange / Blue Green     14 97  5
Technical Flamer      Orange / Dark Red       14 81  5
Technical Rocketeer   Orange / Black          14 91  5
Technical Rifle       Orange / Grey           14 14  5
Psi Op                Purple                  42  3  5
gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by gimrah »

Interference is ok. But pretty weak. Use it if for some weird reason you don't take LR on most assaults. Field surgeon is probably the better choice if not taking CF.

Failsafe is more for hacking lamp-posts without risking losing concealments of bringing down rnfs. And actually lamp-post rewards often aren't that good. So it's ok but certainly not a must. The boost to a MEC if you fail FO / haywire is not a huge deal.
Icarus
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Icarus »

gimrah wrote:Interference is ok. But pretty weak. Use it if for some weird reason you don't take LR on most assaults. Field surgeon is probably the better choice if not taking CF.
I don't think that is worth it. Lots of possibilities to cancel one individual overwatch, like high-aim shooting, grenades etc. Putting one or two flashbangs on the specialist gives him much more effective means of cancelling OW. Giving up an ability - and an action - only for cancelling OW is too high a price IMO.
Jacke
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Jacke »

I agree. Interference isn't worth give up Field Surgeon or Covering Fire when there's so many other ways to remove Overwatch, even if a hit is needed.

And I think this applies to Combat Protocol too. There's so many other ways to apply damage, even if a hit is needed. Sentinel is the start of a good Overwatch Specialist. And Revival Protocol is critical to getting soldiers back into the battle fast.

I play with Grimy's Moral Mod and I'm seeing the need for 2 Specialists with Revival Protocol, especially on long missions. Because what happens when there's only one but that one is shot and killed or bleeding out? I just had 2 missions in the last 3 where the Specialist was bleeding out.

It's even to the point where I'm thinking of having Revival Protocol on the 2nd Overwatch/Medic Specialist. Nope. Overwatch needs Sentinel.

If I need 2 Revival Protocol, I'll send 2 Specialist Officers builds. Need to have them anyway for training spares and for new squads. Could have up to 3 Specialists on some squads. :)
Psieye
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Psieye »

I notice most discussion about officers revolves around "who has the least valuable actions to trade for Command and other officer actions?" I threw that thinking away and went 100% passive officers - for which high aim snipers are the best. If Command is reserved for "things went shit" situations, snipers have the least valuable actions when it's SNAFU. If your sniper officer has a good shot (without being in danger), the situation ought to be under control and I'm fine with some missions having no combat usage of Command.
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gimrah
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by gimrah »

Psieye wrote:I notice most discussion about officers revolves around "who has the least valuable actions to trade for Command and other officer actions?" I threw that thinking away and went 100% passive officers - for which high aim snipers are the best. If Command is reserved for "things went shit" situations, snipers have the least valuable actions when it's SNAFU. If your sniper officer has a good shot (without being in danger), the situation ought to be under control and I'm fine with some missions having no combat usage of Command.
My thinking is that the most value I get form officer perks is commanding soldiers with high burst damage on those critical turns (either to do it twice or to get into position to do it once), and if a single extra action for a soldier can be decisive then I'd rather that soldier wasn't the officer. So I wouldn't want my officer to be a soldier with rapid fire or a damage/fire grenadier for example.

Another consideration is action economy. Soldiers who have non-turn-ending actions (like specialists and psis) make good officers as you generally combine solider actions and officer actions in an efficient and versatile toolbox.

I do like your idea of more passive officers and getting value out of things like lead by example, but I my favourites are still shinobis and support soldiers.
Phaseless
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Phaseless »

gimrah wrote:
Psieye wrote:I notice most discussion about officers revolves around "who has the least valuable actions to trade for Command and other officer actions?" I threw that thinking away and went 100% passive officers - for which high aim snipers are the best. If Command is reserved for "things went shit" situations, snipers have the least valuable actions when it's SNAFU. If your sniper officer has a good shot (without being in danger), the situation ought to be under control and I'm fine with some missions having no combat usage of Command.
My thinking is that the most value I get form officer perks is commanding soldiers with high burst damage on those critical turns (either to do it twice or to get into position to do it once), and if a single extra action for a soldier can be decisive then I'd rather that soldier wasn't the officer. So I wouldn't want my officer to be a soldier with rapid fire or a damage/fire grenadier for example.

Another consideration is action economy. Soldiers who have non-turn-ending actions (like specialists and psis) make good officers as you generally combine solider actions and officer actions in an efficient and versatile toolbox.

I do like your idea of more passive officers and getting value out of things like lead by example, but I my favourites are still shinobis and support soldiers.
I see it the same way. Also most of my snipers are DFA snipers who try to find a nest up high so the Team won't Profit from their passive buffs most of the time.
Psieye
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Psieye »

gimrah wrote: My thinking is that the most value I get form officer perks is commanding soldiers with high burst damage on those critical turns (either to do it twice or to get into position to do it once), and if a single extra action for a soldier can be decisive then I'd rather that soldier wasn't the officer. So I wouldn't want my officer to be a soldier with rapid fire or a damage/fire grenadier for example.

Another consideration is action economy. Soldiers who have non-turn-ending actions (like specialists and psis) make good officers as you generally combine solider actions and officer actions in an efficient and versatile toolbox.
It's sound logic, it really does feel so good to do stuff like Run & Gun -> Shoot -> Command -> Free CE Shoot -> Shoot. Given my preference for larger squads, my doctrine is "bring more soldiers than make a key soldier take extra turns" to make those critical-in-ordinary-squad-size turns be non-critical. It's a similar story with holobots: worthless in 5-man, sorta-ok in 6-man, pretty-good in 8-man. Squads that want to fight need a certain number of "DPS" builds no matter what. Only at huge squad sizes can you afford to bring people that do no damage whatsoever (like, not even the odd SMG shot). It's also how those no-damage builds will ever get XP quickly: by going on oversized missions where mission XP is explosive.

On the note of action economy, the specialists I bring most frequently don't have spare actions. Self-Threat Assessment -> OW -> Reload -> OW (with Threat Assessment from elsewhere) makes OW specs have no room for any other action (including moving) when the action starts (and I'm pulling more pods to the spec than moving towards them). Elite magazine goes empty in 2 OW turns. Makes it very interesting when someone needs a medbot. My non-OW specialists I keep busy with rear line actions. I suppose they could find a spare turn to Command but I find it hard to that spare action.
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Jacke
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Jacke »

I appreciate all the comments.

I've not been able to complete a game because Long War 2 is long and I've got only so much time to spend on the game. It takes time to get progress in a campaign and I depend on my own analysis and reading what others have done to see what paths I want to go down. As I'm learning, I'm quite willing to use 0-day AWC respecs to change my soldiers' builds to have better soldiers, squads, and barracks.

The problem with Officers is it's the one thing that's almost impossible to respec. I think I tested forcing the soldier class back to Rookie and they still retained their officer nature. I could create other officers, but that would give me more officers than I could have created at that date normally.

And as it stands, my campaign is in May and I've only got 1 officer trained to Lt. GTS was delayed to buy a Scientist early. Could switch to other soldiers as officers but I think I need to play things out with Specialists to see how it works. Will still train some other classes in this campaign when I get the time to see how well they work.
Psieye
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Psieye »

As I said, a lot depends on what else your barracks is doing. Specialist officers may work for you. They didn't for my playstyle. You won't know unless you try.
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Jacke
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Jacke »

Psieye wrote:As I said, a lot depends on what else your barracks is doing. Specialist officers may work for you. They didn't for my playstyle. You won't know unless you try.
I'd be interested in greater detail here, as it could help me in many of my decisions. Why didn't Specialist officers not work for you? What officers do work for you?
Psieye
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Psieye »

Jacke wrote:
Psieye wrote:As I said, a lot depends on what else your barracks is doing. Specialist officers may work for you. They didn't for my playstyle. You won't know unless you try.
I'd be interested in greater detail here, as it could help me in many of my decisions. Why didn't Specialist officers not work for you? What officers do work for you?
Given my preference for large engagements, Command (or any other activated Officer skill) is less valuable to me than the ordinary actions available to non-OW specialists. Aid Protocol + Smoke is more valuable than a Command on SNAFU turns. Overwatch is more important than Command when on "watch the flank" duty. Hunker is more important than Command when on "sole visible tank" duty. Hacking a bot is more important than Command. For "hack this objective" missions (optionally with a VIP to bring back afterwards), the non-OW specialist has a lot of moving to do while the rest of the (oversized) squad pulls the whole map (and 2 RNF waves) from one location. Add in "pilot the medbot" and "get this frag to the grenadier" and a specialist has too many important actions to take when SNAFU happens.

Granted, you don't have to use Command. In which case you may as pick a class that maximises on the passive effects of the Officer. Conveniently, the sniper (who does NOT sit far away in a nest in my squads) has the least valuable actions when SNAFU happens. Also consider that what constitutes a SNAFU is different depending on playstyle. The "alpha strike all the time" doctrine has a SNAFU when shots miss and something is left alive. For me, 10 enemies (far away from the snipers) getting a turn (maybe even getting to shoot) is harmless if I've sniped away the dangerous enemies. SNAFU for me is when my snipers are being shot.

Note I train most of my shinobi to 2nd Lt rank. The shinobi officer is great, but I don't want them to be where the big command aura is centered on. They are also great targets to BE Commanded.
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Jacke
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Jacke »

Thanks for that info, Psieye. Useful for me to adapt to my own play.
Psieye wrote:Note I train most of my shinobi to 2nd Lt rank. The shinobi officer is great, but I don't want them to be where the big command aura is centered on. They are also great targets to BE Commanded.
What soldier classes do you normally use for officers? Gunsmoke Grenadiers?
Psieye
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Psieye »

Jacke wrote:Thanks for that info, Psieye. Useful for me to adapt to my own play.
Psieye wrote:Note I train most of my shinobi to 2nd Lt rank. The shinobi officer is great, but I don't want them to be where the big command aura is centered on. They are also great targets to BE Commanded.
What soldier classes do you normally use for officers? Gunsmoke Grenadiers?
The only class that can reach 100+ Aim.
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Jacke
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Jacke »

Psieye wrote:
Jacke wrote:What soldier classes do you normally use for officers? Gunsmoke Grenadiers?
The only class that can reach 100+ Aim.
So Sharpshooter Officers. DFA, Holo, or Snapshot?

And Xwynns had a video today.

Long War 2 Legend S3E20 "Tactical Artillery"

Prominently, he had a Technical Officer use Oscar Mike at a crucial moment to get the squad moving. And use Command on a Specialist to get him in position to hack a jail break. Not to mention make an amazing rocket shot (must have Fire in the Hole) that just missed by enough to add in hitting a Mech along with a Sectoid and 2 ADVENT.

With Specialist Officers, I can't command a Specialist unless the squad has 2. But that's true for all soldier classes.

I think I will make another topic on Officers and Squads.
Psieye
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Re: LW 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Psieye »

Jacke wrote: So Sharpshooter Officers. DFA, Holo, or Snapshot?
I never cared, but that was in 1.4 where DfA completely negated range penalties. 1.5 nerfed that a bit so perhaps steer away from DfA. Basically, my DfA snipers never get to go on rooftops until the area is secured. If that means 20 alien kills before the squad can move out of their starting position, so be it - DfA has to shoot from the ground. He's still doing more than anyone who can't squadsight.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: LW2 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

On Legendary - Specialist.
Early game right side. Assaults are always wounded. Hacked drone is worth another squad.
Removing OW for one turn action - must have. (Assaults are wounded or dead and anything else requires two actions).
100% chance to hit - must have because my equipment is crap.
Then I build 6 of those.
Rest can be anything .

Other difficulties - same story I have just one early build because I do not have Aim on anything. OW Specialist is still always missing Specialist (they can't hit). Medic is even worst but you need two of them anyway . AWC perks force me always to respec all classes.

There is no good Specialist Build . Early game demands different perks, then you get AWC and GTS and after that you will respec all of your Specialists into something more useful. High aim to OW for supply raid for example or high mobility to full skulljacking hacker .

I tried early OW but hacking is most important stat. Lacking ability to hack the drone and pull drone behind my troops for real OW ambush is crippling. I have to use Shinobi for that and risk far more than failed hack.
If you have 100 offense on your soldier then any perk "fits", with 60 offense you must go for 100% differently. Early game - right side until you are sick of clone troopers or you will pick low hacking hacker for OW.

Gunner/Ranger can do that and they are better and usually don't have more than 15 hack (if you use Commander's Choice) or they do and they are still better
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Padishar
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Re: LW2 1.5 Specialist Builds

Post by Padishar »

Based on aim, I either make an OW specialist or one who uses Gremlin more. Combat Protocol and Trojan are so good, as well as Failsafe for those smaller hacking odds, but the OW skills are amazing for those with high aim. Both builds are healers albeit with different healing-related perks. The aim values are for rookies. When GTS is ready, minimum acceptable rookie hack skill for specialists is 8.

Around 70 or more aim: Overwatcher
LCPL - Sentinel - The backbone of this build.
CPL - Covering Fire - Although it's hard to hit those who shoot from cover, the aim malus is useful regardless, especially when combined with Flashbang to decrease their chance to hit even more. I play with a huge roster (close to 100 soldiers and increasing), so I don't need Field Surgeon.
SGT - Medical Protocol - I want my specialists to heal more than once per mission with one item slot. I can't take Field Medic with this spec so I take the extra medkit from Medical Protocol. Also very useful to heal/stabilize frontliners that have taken hits.
SSGT - Ever Vigilant - I just want to flank them. Double-move into overwatch makes it very easy.
TSGT - Cool Under Pressure - Automatic choice for OW builds.
GSGT - Threat Assessment - I guess Rescue Protocol is a good choice too, but I like the unlimited use of this ability.
MSGT - Capacitor Discharge - Even though the other perks speak for Kill Zone, I feel Sentinel is enough. The AOE can be exactly what you need when plenty of enemies are activated.

Hacking PCS, because Haywire is still sometimes the most useful action for the turn. Gear is assault rifle with ablatives, medkit and then pistol/vest/skulljack, depending on stats and whether AWC pistol perks have been trained.

Low aim, doesn't matter how low: Gremlin my trusted friend
LCPL - Combat Protocol - I never could pick Medical Protocol over this in vanilla XCOM2. 100% guaranteed damage is so good.
CPL - Interference - Not all my Assault builds use Lightning Reflexes, making this perk more useful.
SGT - Trojan - I don't have to worry about when robot control ends, and low-HP units just die after the hack. This also kills weaker drones by itself (easy to get 100% to stun them), saving Combat Protocol charges.
SSGT - Field Medic - I missed Medical Protocol, so more healing from this perk.
TSGT - Failsafe - A lamp post could give you some crazy bonus with low odds. With Failsafe I can use one non-turn ending action to try my luck without a penalty. It also doesn't hurt to be able to try robot control without them getting nastier in case of failure.
GSGT - Threat Assessment - I pick this for this build as well. Regular override is enough for me, and resistance MECs play a very small role.
MSGT - Capacitor Discharge - Kill zone is out of question, and I at least try to play so that Restoration is never that useful. I might lose one or two soldiers, but getting a whole team blasted to half of their health should be avoided by all means. The offensive AOE is easy choice.

Hacking PCS is a must. If low aim and high mobility, then shotgun can be equipped. But usually the weapon is SMG, and in some cases assault rifle. Other equipment is the same as for OW spec.
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