Timing your first liberation

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Psieye
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Timing your first liberation

Post by Psieye »

My latest campaign is stalled as it just wasn't fun having 3 high (6+) Str regions and only 1 'normal' (Str 3) region. I could still play but when just about every mission was a 2 hour slogfest with an 8-man squad for even basic "get some intel" missions, my motivation was killed.

It was soon after I did my 2nd liberation that faket15 posted explaining the other factors beyond Vigilance affecting how much Str a region wants. It explained much (so good to have handwritten logs to analyse history):
- Starting region was New India
- New Indonesia contacted on Mar 16
- East Europe contacted on Apr 22
- New India liberated on May 18
- Blacksite revealed to be in East US, the path to get there being New India -> East Europe -> West Europe -> East US
- West Asia contacted on June 10, is Str 1
- East Europe liberated on June 20, it's connected to New India, West Europe, East Africa and West Asia
- West Europe contacted on June 28, is Str 6 (it's next to Blacksite)
- Jul 6: West Europe at Str 7, New Indonesia at Str 8
- East Africa contacted on Jul 18, is Str 5

Soon after, I was so short on intel to expand I had cracked open 3 intel pads. If I had to open a 4th, that would be enough research time for Coilguns being spent just getting intel. Where'd all my intel go? Partly in burning through the 2nd liberation chain quickly, but also in wasted expansions. East Africa had a month of screaming for reinforcements ("my neighbour got liberated!") before I contacted there, with pre-contact randomisation of Vigilance it was guaranteed to be a hotbed.

This has me wondering: what's the point in liberating early? Once I have an elite 8-man squad (which don't need liberation to get funded) I don't care what the Str is for S&G or Troop Columns which will keep spawning for a while yet. Intel mini-retals (read: more EXP and loot) will also keep spawning as will DE missions. According to my numbers, 6 rebels on intel seems like a reasonable chance to detect a S&G or Troop Column (5 if there's a radio tower) with any infiltration time remaining (I'm happy doing them on Swarming if need be). That means excess rebels can be put on recruit/supply to keep a high Str, high Vig region useful. Troop Columns (and Rendezvous) will get me the corpses I need (Sectoids, Lancers, Faceless, Drones, Mecs and Mutons) to operate optimally in the midgame.

Indeed, my 2nd last campaign actually looks better in early June even though it hasn't liberated anywhere yet. That's despite going through a Rapid Response + Vigiliance DE pair (super fast RNF and extra detection range). It's not short on low Str regions to keep farming intel.

So, what's a good time for the first liberation? Given you can find facility leads before the doom clock is revealed, I think it's fine to postpone liberation until late June while making sure you've expanded out thoroughly in all directions (so you can expand away from a GP site around July). Specifically, so that you can expand just before you liberate. There's a lot of value in landing a Watch List hack reward to "double expand"[1] for not much more intel. Being able to see Advent moving legions around means being able to farm low Str regions that much longer (Troop Columns and UFO interceptions delay the inevitable overcrowding).

[1] where "double expand" means not waiting for a radio tower before expanding further. On Commander, that means an intel cost of 160 instead of 80. Watch List makes that 106.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
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gimrah
Long War 2 Crew
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by gimrah »

I just let it happens when it happens. Usually that's about late June or July.

Even if I knew how, I would only want to attempt a network tower or HQ with weapon tech and my last two campaigns were alternative tech rushes, so for a mid May liberation I'd have to do at leas the network tower with ballistics, which doesn't appeal. I could see the appeal far more if you just rush lasers and then go asap while the power spike lasts.

By the time I liberate I have 5 or 6 regions contacted and am churning GOps in all of them. I do tend to be very supply constrained, which I wouldn't be if I'd libbed earlier. But I get lots of VIPs and enough resources from S&G to be going on with.
Psieye
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Psieye »

Hmm yeah, the Network Tower for the New India liberation was done on Apr 18, before the Mag rush research paid off. Specialist, 2 technicals, assault and shinobi. No EXO either. Boosted to 150% infil so V.Light. Stealth failed on the enemy turn before the shinobi got the hack off: so an extended Beagle rush which I didn't plan for. Certainly not an appealing fight and that's an intel boost I wouldn't have needed if I just did liberation later.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
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gimrah
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by gimrah »

I usually boost network towers and HQs.

The network tower is because there's quite a lot of stuff to kill in 2 turns otherwise. And also if you don't manage to stealth to the objective, then it can be a tough fight with 5 soldiers. And if you lose that's a death blow for a campaign.

The HQ is just for timing, so from 66% to 100%, because 4-5 days of 8 A-teamers is easily worth 25 intel (I play Commander). Only time I don't is if I'm really intel constrained or if air patrols is active and there's nothing better for my guys to be doing.
Psieye
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Psieye »

Once I am in midgame and I'm affluent thanks to 8-man rampages in Troop Columns, I find that Network Towers without boosts go smoothly with a generous allocation of EXO suits and (from 8-man mission XP) fucked up soldiers (read: they can consistently kill 2 things in 1 turn). With sufficient EXOs, the objective of squad concealment becomes "find that perfect opener that trashes 2 pods at once". The Network Tower map is narrow and patrol paths often overlap.

Here's a record for a Moderate Network Tower. I was getting kinda desperate because high Str regions everywhere locked me out hard.
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
1st
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Dwarfling
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Dwarfling »

My incentive for the early liberation is mostly so I can get the cash for the buildings I'm gonna need. Power Relay + Resistance Comms is $225, then the Laboratory is another $125. Around the same time I'd also want the Proving Grounds which is cheap at $50 but usually I also want the Workshop next to it. If I already built the AWC because I had too many wounds to recover then that's a lot of cash that isn't exactly easy to come by, and having the $300-$400 from the supply drop helps to speed it up a lot. You pay the price tho, with ADVENT going nuts on the surrounding regions.
Psieye
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Psieye »

Only time I'd consider building a Workshop is if it was on a power coil so it can pretend to be a power relay too. Hmm, I've only ever built a Lab on a power coil, how much power does it take for the base building and for each extra Lab station upgrade?
My three 8-man GOp squad Commander campaigns:
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

It seems that my answer for everything is rush & get scientist to rush more.

BEST start is fast start (I count rewards). 2nd region ASAP 3rd region ASAP. Pick towers/scientist/ POI (crap reward for me). It is Intel/Scientist boost just doing Lib 1&2 leaving best squad to rush starting region. Lib 3 will give +1 contacts and I will have enough intel for 4th region or HQ.
I can't do Smash and Grab if it just raise Vigilance for few bucks. I wait for better rewards and supply raid.

I use scientist to boost detection - only way to rush region. It gives bigger detection times to finish them quickly . This will save intel.
Never had need to boost Lib 2.
Rushing tower in first region is easy tower no need to spend intel on that or Lib 3 (no autospawn for me). With low Force level you need bombs with higher force level you need equipment.
In terms of rewards. Scientist on intel will yield another scientist faster it is up to you to judge is it worth it.
The Preacher
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Kamikaze Samurai »

I go for immediate liberation of my first region, boosting if necessary on the first 3 missions.

I think in my current game it was done on April 18.

There is a massive cash boost from the immediate reward that can be increased further by selling the corpses and if you want even further by selling the data pads.

I think ot was $158 + around $250 for 36 corpses and another $108 for 4 data pads at $27 each.

That's over $500 in mid April, followed by a steady stream of supplies for the rest of the game.

Also, SonyWiFiHR, you are crazy to avoid smash and grab for any reason since your ability to purchase weapons and armor will ultimately be limited by how much alloy and elerium you can collect.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

It raise Vigilance and I run in three region ASAP. Something must fall off. Lamp Post gives more and hacking rewards are big.
I do one for crystals but with Supply raid in mind I do not need one risky exposed mission more.

I can spare 10 man for missions in three region because I rushed up Lib chain and send 10 man squad before April.
I m in rush S&G are trap for two man squad - I need more Scientist and keep Vigilance cycle under 5 to get them

Early POI also is something that I do not need - this is hard choice but i will skip Intel + POI if i can get something better
I avoid boosting missions because my plan can easily trap you in those regions. 4th far away region is my goal so one region need Tower ASAP
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Kamikaze Samurai »

There are 2 sides to this and I haven't completely worked out the math of it yet.

One side is the argument to keep the HQ on the board to avoid vigilence from rising in adjacent regions but the problem is that fighting in a region without liberating it leaves all that local vigilence on the board and once you have several of those regions the global vigilence will add up to the point where the aliens are sending down a continuous stream of Super Reinforcement UFOs.

This doubles the rate at which new legions are added to the map from about 4 per 21 day supply cycle to 8.

By liberating that HQ you raise vigilence everywhere else, but it decays by 1 point per week in the areas where you are not fighting and can reduce global vigilence in a way that slows the reinforcements.

Maybe the best compromise is to hold off until you do enough missions in the adjacent regions to get their vigilence over 6 and then take down the HQ.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

If you detect slow - ish. You can't move and HQ delay is something to consider.
If you are lucky to detect first 3 missions early then rush - spike vigilance and move to fish in second region. First region will cool down to get you - jailbreak.
Just option to select what missions you should do will force you to 3rd region (you don't have to move).
This is before HQ assault and number of doable missions is the same but with a twist you are selecting your rewards and you keep vigilance low.
At some point you must do HQ or you must spike vigilance in every region (fast) to slow down Avatar and end result is more legions anyway.
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Dwarfling
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Dwarfling »

You don't really need to slow down Avatar with vigilance. I've completed multiple Legend campaigns when I've been at 0% pretty much all the time, you just gotta identify the Facility Lead missions (and contact the regions) and be quick with the Skulljack.
Psieye
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Psieye »

Kamikaze Samurai wrote:global vigilence will add up to the point where the aliens are sending down a continuous stream of Super Reinforcement UFOs.
Given the UFOs can land anywhere, I think I'd accept a couple of Super UFOs landing elsewhere in the world to ensure the 5th, 6th and 7th expansions are likely to be low Str. A lower number of global legions is meaningless if they're mostly concentrated around the regions you've contacted.

This does raise the interesting question of what to do up to and after the first liberation. Let us assume it's the home region that gets liberated, so you know which way Blacksite is. I'm of the view that the first few regions should all be neighbours of the home region. By the time the home region gets liberated, all its neighbours should be on high Vig so you don't care about the +2 modifier for Desired Strength. As soon as you know which way Blacksite is, the next 2 expansions are in other directions. The neighbours of the home region become high Str so they get flipped to half intel (for Troop Column, S&G, anti-DE) half supply. The latter to bait out supply mini-retals while still earning you money.

If I wanted to game the system further, I'd ensure S&G always spawn in high Str regions by 'locking out' low Str regions - i.e. not clearing their GOps until high Str regions snatch up the global limit of 2 S&G.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

@Dwarfling
I must stop reading guides.
I assumed that Vigilance spike is 1st thing and sure thing to slow down the avatar.
My rush campaign was actually good spiked 3 regions more than 7 Vigilance + more vigilance in near future (abused 7 days vigil drop)
I spiked more than HQ will and get UFO around march 15 - more vigil than planned .

@Psieye
Piling up vigilance in high strength region is good thing it is cursed region anyway.
You will lock lot of Forces there. My 4th region is 8 man GOPs & abuse vigilance drop system. So I m expanding to black site doing fast dirty jobs there and expand more to regions like you said (easy missions).It all depends how well Black site is connected and how much strength I can add to 4th region ( I can lose this region). If it start with 3 str i must be damn fast. I want in that region highest vigilance on map
I will pile up vigilance in few other regions creating hot spots -that's was plan. But that happens without planning (look there is scientist I must do it :D :D )

Now I m reading that low Vigi. is desired and you can beat the game just by doing FaL
Because I m expansionist by default (damn scientists :geek: :geek: ). Do I need to do HQ - ever ?
Less legions is huge bonus and I can detect FaL-s with scientists
G-vigil low should be faster avatar project = increasing risk of defeat. Extra legions = slower Avatar
I think that right now I m loosing my mind.
So best plan is spread out be in low vigil and hope that RNG loves you ?
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Kamikaze Samurai
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Kamikaze Samurai »

PsiEye, why would you want S+G to spawn in high strength regions?

They are often detected with lots if infiltration time so I have been sending in "Neophyte Swarm" squads with lots of low ranking members.

They get the goods and some experience without tying down A Team troops that are better used elsewhere, and I don't cry too hard if somebody catches a bullet.
faket15
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by faket15 »

Kamikaze Samurai wrote:PsiEye, why would you want S+G to spawn in high strength regions?

They are often detected with lots if infiltration time so I have been sending in "Neophyte Swarm" squads with lots of low ranking members.

They get the goods and some experience without tying down A Team troops that are better used elsewhere, and I don't cry too hard if somebody catches a bullet.
He wants them in high Vigilance regions, not high Strenght. The idea here is that when a S&G spawns in a low Vig region it is using one of the two GOp slots that could have a Jailbreak, HVP or Protect Data but when it spawns in a high Vig region it is using a slot that can't actually have anything else. Basically when a S&G spawns in a high Vig region instead of low Vig you have one extra mission on the map.
Psieye
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by Psieye »

Yeah, faket15 explained why high Vig is where I want S&G to spawn. As for why I don't MIND if that happens to be high Str - it's the one GOp that doesn't have RNF rain down on you until the timer is up. Doing an underinfiltrated stunt on other GOps means facing 6-man RNF on the first wave. At high Str, that first wave can come in 4~5 turns. It's survivable with no wounds but is very stressful, requires specific preparation and still needs some luck. But on a S&G? 15% infil one of those and the RNF still arrives after you should have finished the mission (maybe with 1 Intervention).

Low infil, high Str S&G become "do an HQ with a time limit instead of a command pod, oh and with LoS blocks due to crates being in a building". My 8-man A-team can do that in 1d and (around June~August) I find the risk of wounds to be LESS than if I do a 5-man vs V.Light. Anyway, putting aside my habits of going stupidly loud, I don't like leaving a GOp running longer than it needs. Many times I've sent a 6-man instead of a 5-man because "why not, I have time" and it's always bitten my ass afterwards. Not only is my squad tied up for longer than necessary, the region's GOp slot is tied up longer than necessary. Barring strategic minmax'ing like waiting for Vig to decay or for rebel jobs to switch over, you don't want a GOp slot 'idling' around because you insist on spending a long time infiltrating.

Counter-DE (tactical and strategic) are where I'd be happy for "lowbie spam". Deliberately failing Propaganda missions would work too for training the lowbies - they'll get promoted just from kill XP because they're lowbies. Though personally I find I'm always needing every last soldier in my barracks when I'm not in "8-man everything" mode. Lately I contemplate sending a B-team (but with A-grade equipment) to do HQ as with proper squadsight cheesing they're not that dangerous (albeit tedious).

Around June/July, anyone who is a non-Psi Sgt (thank you Trial by Fire) will typically be an advisor most of the time. That's around the time I'll want a lot of advisors too, what with the mixture of high Vig, mid Vig and low Vig regions. Someday (likely next year now) I'll do a campaign where I organise the regions better. A campaign without much fewer distortions to my barracks than my last 2 campaigns.
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SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Timing your first liberation

Post by SonnyWiFiHr »

Missions have pool. I think that only two (same missions ) can spawn.
That why I rotate regions and do stupid no doing missions. They will not spawn leaving me to pick - better. Than not to bog strat layer I quick jump in them and generate new.
If you know when mission spawn you can control strat layer a lot more.
S&G is not important - leave it to run until you detect something in other region.
Intel is bit a tricky - it depend how early in game you are.
Jailbreak - early is must do vig 6 rule (you need more rookies ASAP)
VIP - soldier , scientist, eng must do and because of them I keep Vig 5 rule
It is still same rule . Finish all missions in region at same time before Mission generation time arrive. It is Avenger time after gatectrasher.
4th region for brief time can generate a lot but you must know 4th region early is one man mission mostly. Super xp for Shinobi vs abandoned loot (you can't get it anyway if you did not contact 4th region early).
If you use Psieye approach (1st region require it) you are on fast track. 8 man vs small squad or solo.

Don't forget that same mission will not role twice in single region one after other. They have cooldown. So this is how you pick where to strike.
1 set of mission Jailbreak + eng (important VIP) , 2nd set of mission anything but not first set of missions. 3rd set of missions (vigilance 5) anything but not 2nd set of missions - you can get jailbreak if right amount time has passed and important VIP again

@ Psieye
March 16 second contact. You are on second set of missions or third ?
You should contact 2nd region earlier just to spawn missions and then split forces if necessary. - More intel when you really need it
You will know 3rd set of missions (if you are not to high on vigilance)
This is time when I try to contact 3rd region (crappy intel is problem). I call it starting mess and then I try to sort mission spawning
April 22 means - wounds. Contact with 3rd region is late - it will generate more rebels and some desirable mission no matter.
That's why I make 3rd region priority - screw tower and HQ they can wait few days if I had wounds.
Every heaven early is boost - they will generate crappy intel and rebels/ rookies . Earlier you fill them earlier you became stronger.
Expanding fast will net you more 8 man GOPs by doing small team insurgency in more regions

Nothing is wrong with your expanding (handling 3 regions) but April is just to late to have visible effect. If you can add 4th region (damn lines) do it fast as intel allow you. 4 strong heavens is powerhouse
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