Implacable Rangers
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Implacable Rangers
I used to take "Bring 'em on" for my Infantry Rangers at Tech-Seargent rank to maximize crit-potential, but now I wonder if "Implacable" might be a better option. Some extra mobility to get further into the action (or out of it) sure sounds tempting.
What is your experience?
What is your experience?
Re: Implacable Rangers
Implacable can be fun, especially when you can drop someone with your first shot then move into flank/pointblank for another kill. Also good for running out into the open for a dangerous long range flank, then getting back to cover. My left side rangers tend to have crap move, so this is a solid boost.
Re: Implacable Rangers
I always take it on 'left side' or centre column rangers.
For the latter it's obvious because it works so well with sawn-off.
For left side it helps reposition mid-turn and alleviates a major drawback of the class. Also potentially allows sawn-off use but realistically this is limited given movement is usually not great.
I find crit build unattractive as BEO is underpowered in LW2 (was great in LW1) and he's usually shooting at MECs or tragets in cover.
My goto build is WF-LO-CuP-Fort-Imp-RF-KZ. Bit of versatility mixed in.
For the latter it's obvious because it works so well with sawn-off.
For left side it helps reposition mid-turn and alleviates a major drawback of the class. Also potentially allows sawn-off use but realistically this is limited given movement is usually not great.
I find crit build unattractive as BEO is underpowered in LW2 (was great in LW1) and he's usually shooting at MECs or tragets in cover.
My goto build is WF-LO-CuP-Fort-Imp-RF-KZ. Bit of versatility mixed in.
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Re: Implacable Rangers
Thanks for the feedback. I've tried Implacable by now and like it a lot. Re-positioning after the first shot offers great versatility, especially on timed missions. Even though the crit skills are probably prone to being underestimated (I rarely notice when they "activate" and affect the outcome), I suspect that even in large battles where crit builds would shine, the extra mobility will allow the occasional extra (flanking) shot which will compensate for the loss of extra damage per shot (given by Bring 'em On).
I only hope that there won't come a phase in the late game where you regularly fight 16+ aliens at a time an desperately need your ranger to do +8 damage per shot to get by.![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_e_confused.gif)
I only hope that there won't come a phase in the late game where you regularly fight 16+ aliens at a time an desperately need your ranger to do +8 damage per shot to get by.
![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_e_confused.gif)
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Re: Implacable Rangers
Implacable is better for a crit build. A flank is +40% crit chance. Implacable lets you flank and lets you get more shots off overall. It works best with high mobility rangers. The skill doesn't have much payoff when you can't blue move from cover to cover.
Re: Implacable Rangers
I force this kind of fight regularly at midgame on Commander. My ranger's job isn't to land amazing crits, it's to shoot 5 times per decisive turn while moving forward. That's not possible without Implacable (and Threat Assessment). BEO is a lot better when you get it through AWC on other classes, like snipers. For reliable double-shooting hard hits, turn to lategame Gunners.Undershaft wrote:regularly fight 16+ aliens at a time
Personally, I also use Implacable to fuck the AI's LoS and completely shut them down. 16+ aliens aren't bad if you've already removed the dangerous ones and the rest are stuck in an indecisive loop, never shooting and rarely moving forward.
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Re: Implacable Rangers
Agreed. Just finished a campaign where I had 2 high aim rangers with implacable and rapid fire. Each could shoot once, move and shoot 2 more times. Their combined worth was easily as much as the rest of the team.Psieye wrote:I force this kind of fight regularly at midgame on Commander. My ranger's job isn't to land amazing crits, it's to shoot 5 times per decisive turn while moving forward. That's not possible without Implacable (and Threat Assessment). BEO is a lot better when you get it through AWC on other classes, like snipers. For reliable double-shooting hard hits, turn to lategame Gunners.Undershaft wrote:regularly fight 16+ aliens at a time
Personally, I also use Implacable to fuck the AI's LoS and completely shut them down. 16+ aliens aren't bad if you've already removed the dangerous ones and the rest are stuck in an indecisive loop, never shooting and rarely moving forward.
Re: Implacable Rangers
Would you mind explaining this in a bit more detail?Psieye wrote:Personally, I also use Implacable to f*** the AI's LoS and completely shut them down. 16+ aliens aren't bad if you've already removed the dangerous ones and the rest are stuck in an indecisive loop, never shooting and rarely moving forward.Undershaft wrote:regularly fight 16+ aliens at a time
Not sure what you mean. So far I find Rangers to be a weak class, so I am clearly using them wrong.
Re: Implacable Rangers
Sure: see my post in viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26974FFG41 wrote: Would you mind explaining this in a bit more detail?
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Re: Implacable Rangers
Rangers are my favorite class, but I generally only build "Right side" Rangers. Building them early, with high aim, Perception PCS and good hair triggers, is a guaranteed OW kill and the ability to either take two shots or move to point and instant overwatch is great. Once they hit GSGT and get Rapid Reactions, a Ranger can clear a small pod single handed in the middle game. It's hard to make them good if you start them middle to late game, so I stock up early and for tough missions, I send them out in pairs (or more), so my squad is basically in support of the Rangers. It's a thing of beauty to just end the turn and watch pure mayhem as they shoot everything in sight. They solve a lot of problems when RNFs drop in. I try to keep them in a centralized location where I think they will drop. All of my GSGT/MSGT Rangers have over 130+ kills, each.Psieye wrote:Sure: see my post in viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26974FFG41 wrote: Would you mind explaining this in a bit more detail?
Since I only take guys with high aim (i.e. sharpshooter caliber), they usually land shots even without overwatch.
Re: Implacable Rangers
Psieye wrote:Sure: see my post in viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26974FFG41 wrote: Would you mind explaining this in a bit more detail?
Thanks.
- SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Implacable Rangers
OW build for early game is lacking aim increase buffs. This can lead to very difficult missions because you can't clear pod with them. Snapshoot Sharpshooter is better. Specialist has better starting perks. So this is mid game squad build. It is support class in most cases. Dark event Conditioning +1 HP (you will have 3 of them) can render any OW useless. You can bring High aim rookie and have same results
Crit. "Left side" allows you to shoot. I build them for damaging real threat on map and they can OW. AP rounds is must. They can give you early much needed Flawless missions. Later they tends to kill hard targets in high cover.
Shotgun center build - they die fast. Center build with SMG - no use and they die fast.
Implacable Rangers are mid game builds when you have dedicated squad and time for respec. Specialist perks in this squad should include Airdrop & Threat Assessment. Problem with this perks is - you are screwing your Specialist in early game.
Early builds and Late builds are different. Right now I m skipping moves (end turn) with Implacable Rangers most of the time and I will not screw my Specialist who is far more capable of dealing with pods - from a far. Shooting never pays off. Build few skulljacks and upgrade them then you really can control battlefield.
Far superior builds for early game
Grenadier (Sapper and all bomb dmg perks), pod opener and ender
Assaults ( Formidable + Lightning Reflexes + Close and Personal ) screw any guide you need that
Technical ( Rocket and Shred) same as Assault and you need Shred
Specialist (Ow perks if it has above 67 aim + Trojan + Full Override)
Shinobi (Stealth). Bladenobi will die in first few missions
Sniper (Phantom , Snapshooter) no DfA you need every soldier and every squad should be supported by Phantom
Gunner (Formidable, Shred) - bait. You need shred .
Every of this class needs respec for late game. No easy missions if you screw your perks and there is no time for AWC until may.
Late builds - you can use random perks on 90+ aim ranger + AWC + Equipment. Works for any high aim soldiers. Random perks.
I screwed my Grenadiers because they had high aim making them Rapid Deployment builds. They are useless now. Min / Maxing can kill your squad if it is done in early game.
Veteran, Commander difficulty - min/maxing from start. Legendary - first useful perk must be picked or do not send this soldiers in squad less of 7. They are dead weight and you will not have timers for dead weight.
Crit. "Left side" allows you to shoot. I build them for damaging real threat on map and they can OW. AP rounds is must. They can give you early much needed Flawless missions. Later they tends to kill hard targets in high cover.
Shotgun center build - they die fast. Center build with SMG - no use and they die fast.
Implacable Rangers are mid game builds when you have dedicated squad and time for respec. Specialist perks in this squad should include Airdrop & Threat Assessment. Problem with this perks is - you are screwing your Specialist in early game.
Early builds and Late builds are different. Right now I m skipping moves (end turn) with Implacable Rangers most of the time and I will not screw my Specialist who is far more capable of dealing with pods - from a far. Shooting never pays off. Build few skulljacks and upgrade them then you really can control battlefield.
Far superior builds for early game
Grenadier (Sapper and all bomb dmg perks), pod opener and ender
Assaults ( Formidable + Lightning Reflexes + Close and Personal ) screw any guide you need that
Technical ( Rocket and Shred) same as Assault and you need Shred
Specialist (Ow perks if it has above 67 aim + Trojan + Full Override)
Shinobi (Stealth). Bladenobi will die in first few missions
Sniper (Phantom , Snapshooter) no DfA you need every soldier and every squad should be supported by Phantom
Gunner (Formidable, Shred) - bait. You need shred .
Every of this class needs respec for late game. No easy missions if you screw your perks and there is no time for AWC until may.
Late builds - you can use random perks on 90+ aim ranger + AWC + Equipment. Works for any high aim soldiers. Random perks.
I screwed my Grenadiers because they had high aim making them Rapid Deployment builds. They are useless now. Min / Maxing can kill your squad if it is done in early game.
Veteran, Commander difficulty - min/maxing from start. Legendary - first useful perk must be picked or do not send this soldiers in squad less of 7. They are dead weight and you will not have timers for dead weight.
The Preacher
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Re: Implacable Rangers
I understand that everyone has different play styles, but I disagree with almost everything you've said here.SonnyWiFiHr wrote:OW build for early game is lacking aim increase buffs. This can lead to very difficult missions because you can't clear pod with them. Snapshoot Sharpshooter is better. Specialist has better starting perks. So this is mid game squad build. It is support class in most cases. Dark event Conditioning +1 HP (you will have 3 of them) can render any OW useless. You can bring High aim rookie and have same results
Crit. "Left side" allows you to shoot. I build them for damaging real threat on map and they can OW. AP rounds is must. They can give you early much needed Flawless missions. Later they tends to kill hard targets in high cover.
Shotgun center build - they die fast. Center build with SMG - no use and they die fast.
Implacable Rangers are mid game builds when you have dedicated squad and time for respec. Specialist perks in this squad should include Airdrop & Threat Assessment. Problem with this perks is - you are screwing your Specialist in early game.
Early builds and Late builds are different. Right now I m skipping moves (end turn) with Implacable Rangers most of the time and I will not screw my Specialist who is far more capable of dealing with pods - from a far. Shooting never pays off. Build few skulljacks and upgrade them then you really can control battlefield.
Far superior builds for early game
Grenadier (Sapper and all bomb dmg perks), pod opener and ender
Assaults ( Formidable + Lightning Reflexes + Close and Personal ) screw any guide you need that
Technical ( Rocket and Shred) same as Assault and you need Shred
Specialist (Ow perks if it has above 67 aim + Trojan + Full Override)
Shinobi (Stealth). Bladenobi will die in first few missions
Sniper (Phantom , Snapshooter) no DfA you need every soldier and every squad should be supported by Phantom
Gunner (Formidable, Shred) - bait. You need shred .
Every of this class needs respec for late game. No easy missions if you screw your perks and there is no time for AWC until may.
Late builds - you can use random perks on 90+ aim ranger + AWC + Equipment. Works for any high aim soldiers. Random perks.
I screwed my Grenadiers because they had high aim making them Rapid Deployment builds. They are useless now. Min / Maxing can kill your squad if it is done in early game.
Veteran, Commander difficulty - min/maxing from start. Legendary - first useful perk must be picked or do not send this soldiers in squad less of 7. They are dead weight and you will not have timers for dead weight.
As I've said before, all of my OW Rangers are my highest scoring soldiers and that has always been the case for me. I simply don't build mediocre Rangers. The effects of that +1 HP Dark Event isn't going to make any difference at all. If you build them to be good from the start, they can carry the squad on their backs for the entire campaign. The only DE that decreases their ability is the Lightening Reflexes, or Shadow Step but so few enemies have that, it's not a real factor, or cause for concern, because if a Ranger has 117 aim, they just shoot the enemy next turn.
I generally take implacable, but I think I will stop taking that perk since I almost never use it.
Also, I never Respec my soldiers since that is too inefficient for me. I just build them to do their jobs. Having high aim Grenadiers is great if you can get it, but you don't need high aim to launch a grenade that never misses.
Rapid Deployment is an awesome perk. getting a free flashbang on a dangerous group and then softening them up with an incendiary bomb can essentially take them out of the fight completely.
Why would you ever need a Sniper with Phantom? Phantom, just to shoot one enemy? I don't get that at all, especially since they never get close to an enemy anyway. A snapshot Sniper is (more or less) traveling with the squad and a DFA Sniper is half a map away. Either way, he's revealed with his first shot, so there goes your Phantom...
What I really want, and will probably never get is a Phantom, Covert, Ghostwalking "Technical", with Conceal... Hmm, now that I think of it, maybe that ghost grenade might have a use after all... Sneaking up and putting a burn on a group of 8-10 soldiers, is worth it's weight in gold.
I don't bother with early/middle/late game builds. Who has time for that? Just use what you have.
- SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Implacable Rangers
Currently my highest scoring soldiers are OW Specialists. They kill - reinforcements
One shoot is not working on Legendary.
Trooper with 5 HP with extra defense, aim, conditioning (+1 HP) is the lowest threat on map.
Viper with buff to everything will dodge your OW ranger and your critical Ranger will use Point Blank on them.
Everything on map can have more than 9 HP even in May. My low Aim Gunner can OW but not Ranger - he will use Scope and Stock for probably graze.
When you encounter 6 Vipers and miss /graze them they will still have aim of 70+
My best killers are Grenadiers with right perks. Not by numbers of kills but what they can do for squad.
Walk Fire is so important that I can't choose Ever Vigilant over it. Locked On + Walk Fire is most used perks by far on my Rangers. They will shoot at anything that can do one shot kill . All other perks just add to their efficiency.
Gunner can do OW job and he can suppress - far more important than pure OW. Suppression will reduce enemy aim giving you better chance in next turn. Two Gunners for Heavy+ Supply Raid because I can't kill pod of 8 and "Master" pod is always 3x MEC + 3x Muton + Shieldbearer.
Phantom will give you chance to lure Advent to your OW position. You are building OW Rangers try that.
Rapid Deployment - last three Grenadiers can have it but not first nine
One shoot is not working on Legendary.
Trooper with 5 HP with extra defense, aim, conditioning (+1 HP) is the lowest threat on map.
Viper with buff to everything will dodge your OW ranger and your critical Ranger will use Point Blank on them.
Everything on map can have more than 9 HP even in May. My low Aim Gunner can OW but not Ranger - he will use Scope and Stock for probably graze.
When you encounter 6 Vipers and miss /graze them they will still have aim of 70+
My best killers are Grenadiers with right perks. Not by numbers of kills but what they can do for squad.
Walk Fire is so important that I can't choose Ever Vigilant over it. Locked On + Walk Fire is most used perks by far on my Rangers. They will shoot at anything that can do one shot kill . All other perks just add to their efficiency.
Gunner can do OW job and he can suppress - far more important than pure OW. Suppression will reduce enemy aim giving you better chance in next turn. Two Gunners for Heavy+ Supply Raid because I can't kill pod of 8 and "Master" pod is always 3x MEC + 3x Muton + Shieldbearer.
Phantom will give you chance to lure Advent to your OW position. You are building OW Rangers try that.
Rapid Deployment - last three Grenadiers can have it but not first nine
The Preacher
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Re: Implacable Rangers
Well, everything works as a team. I'm certainly not expecting to win a battle with a single Ranger. Besides, I have Assault units for up close work. An Assault with Rapid Fire, Talon rounds and a scattergun can kill any organic unit at any level. They don't shoot unless they are right next to the guy they are engaging. With the correct perks and attachments, they can easily crit for 35 on a regular basis with a single shot... I've seen it. Then they get to shoot again. At 100% chance to hit.SonnyWiFiHr wrote:Currently my highest scoring soldiers are OW Specialists. They kill - reinforcements
One shoot is not working on Legendary.
Trooper with 5 HP with extra defense, aim, conditioning (+1 HP) is the lowest threat on map.
Viper with buff to everything will dodge your OW ranger and your critical Ranger will use Point Blank on them.
Everything on map can have more than 9 HP even in May. My low Aim Gunner can OW but not Ranger - he will use Scope and Stock for probably graze.
When you encounter 6 Vipers and miss /graze them they will still have aim of 70+
My best killers are Grenadiers with right perks. Not by numbers of kills but what they can do for squad.
But if I encounter 6 Vipers, I'm not gonna sit there and trade pot shots with them. I flashbang/burn the group to deny them their special talents (they won't have 70+ aim at that point, which is weak to start with), then suppress/AOE and kill as required. I generally don' put gunners on OW. I need them to be flexible and pin the enemy down. So if I can suppress 3, and engage the other 3 who are either disoriented, burning or both, I maintain a significant tactical advantage.
There is no rule that says a Ranger "always" has to be on overwatch. For the most part, OW is for the enemy you don't see, not the enemy you do see. Plus if your Rangers graze a lot, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you didn't build them right. But mine don't miss. Very rarely does that happen.
Again, I still don't see what having Phantom Sniper has to do with luring enemy into OW killzones. You can do that with any unit while you are concealed. But a fire grenade or sniper shot to the face definitely makes them come running toward my bullets. I understand the tactics of the game.
I have no idea why you'd put a stock on a Ranger, but like I say, it's just different styles of play.
- SonnyWiFiHr
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Re: Implacable Rangers
5 man squad do not have all tools needed for OW kill zone. Not before Late May
You use VIP as activator (activate and run back) and you need Phantom for that . If Phantom is spotted (or if you do that with non Phantom soldier) your OW trap will fail and Advent will shoot at nearest or best target. If situation is bad your sniper can flank pod for sure kill.
This is early/mid game tactics. Your Specialist can't hack and your Assaults are bad.
Phantom will find targets to activate pod with grenade on concealed or unconcealed mission. Every pod on map can be activated like that.
They still can shoot and five man mission will be in most cases flawless.
Advent did not fire a shot mission will be every other mission. I m counting 30 in row including Heavy supply raid (heavy MEC + Berserker + 2x MEC + 2x Muton Centurion and Shieldbearer in freaking April). I did not build single Talon yet and I can't afford any (+1 crit dmg is not enough)
With early good build grenadier you don need to engage at all. Until force level 6.
I don't put rapid fire on Assaults (Close Encounters is better) this is for Gunner and Ranger
I just attacked M2 trooper with my best soldiers including Assault. I could not kill it even with Assault + Crit. Ranger, Center Mass Gunner, Bomber Grenadier . Bomber Grenadier can just put some minor red fog on it, Assault - minor red fog, Crit Ranger - miss , Gunner at this point can do only suppression. Next turn I had reinforcements including MEC + M2. Every 2nd turn reinforcements on Extr. Light mission including M2 soldier. It was hell and I was lucky. Now I m rushing Magnetic because Laser is child toy compared to M2. They can run your suppression because they have good HP and everything I have is just minor red fog on them. You need four good shots in row to kill one. This one was Sentinel with 15 HP. I m encountering troops with 12- 20 HP (and more) in May. Basic Viper is just 9, Viper Elite is 20 with 25 dodge (this is -25 aim on open).
You use VIP as activator (activate and run back) and you need Phantom for that . If Phantom is spotted (or if you do that with non Phantom soldier) your OW trap will fail and Advent will shoot at nearest or best target. If situation is bad your sniper can flank pod for sure kill.
This is early/mid game tactics. Your Specialist can't hack and your Assaults are bad.
Phantom will find targets to activate pod with grenade on concealed or unconcealed mission. Every pod on map can be activated like that.
They still can shoot and five man mission will be in most cases flawless.
Advent did not fire a shot mission will be every other mission. I m counting 30 in row including Heavy supply raid (heavy MEC + Berserker + 2x MEC + 2x Muton Centurion and Shieldbearer in freaking April). I did not build single Talon yet and I can't afford any (+1 crit dmg is not enough)
With early good build grenadier you don need to engage at all. Until force level 6.
I don't put rapid fire on Assaults (Close Encounters is better) this is for Gunner and Ranger
I just attacked M2 trooper with my best soldiers including Assault. I could not kill it even with Assault + Crit. Ranger, Center Mass Gunner, Bomber Grenadier . Bomber Grenadier can just put some minor red fog on it, Assault - minor red fog, Crit Ranger - miss , Gunner at this point can do only suppression. Next turn I had reinforcements including MEC + M2. Every 2nd turn reinforcements on Extr. Light mission including M2 soldier. It was hell and I was lucky. Now I m rushing Magnetic because Laser is child toy compared to M2. They can run your suppression because they have good HP and everything I have is just minor red fog on them. You need four good shots in row to kill one. This one was Sentinel with 15 HP. I m encountering troops with 12- 20 HP (and more) in May. Basic Viper is just 9, Viper Elite is 20 with 25 dodge (this is -25 aim on open).
The Preacher
Re: Implacable Rangers
I'm ignoring the rest of the discussion you're having with SonnyWiFiHr to concentrate on one question.
Phantom on a sniper who intends to shoot is useful because the tactical needs change as a mission progresses. At the start, you have very little scouted territory and Advent could be anywhere. If you're not prepared for it, flipping an unseen pod to Orange alert with your loud sniper shot and subsequently getting flanked by them is potentially mission-terminating bad. Sometimes, you bump into your first pod very quickly and you're forced to start shooting (or fragging, which is louder). So now you're uncertain if an Orange pod will walk into your flank if you advance. A sniper has little use until you've scouted sufficient territory to be free of Orange flanks, so Phantom makes sure they're not a liability. Unlike shinobi, Phantom snipers can't equip SMGs so their detection radius is bigger - that only matters if you want to move forward with them, they'll do fine watching the flank for pods coming towards them.
I presume you're specifically talking about snipers who shoot, as opposed to holobots who don't.SpinDoctor wrote:Why would you ever need a Sniper with Phantom?
Phantom on a sniper who intends to shoot is useful because the tactical needs change as a mission progresses. At the start, you have very little scouted territory and Advent could be anywhere. If you're not prepared for it, flipping an unseen pod to Orange alert with your loud sniper shot and subsequently getting flanked by them is potentially mission-terminating bad. Sometimes, you bump into your first pod very quickly and you're forced to start shooting (or fragging, which is louder). So now you're uncertain if an Orange pod will walk into your flank if you advance. A sniper has little use until you've scouted sufficient territory to be free of Orange flanks, so Phantom makes sure they're not a liability. Unlike shinobi, Phantom snipers can't equip SMGs so their detection radius is bigger - that only matters if you want to move forward with them, they'll do fine watching the flank for pods coming towards them.
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Re: Implacable Rangers
I think I'm starting to see what you are doing here, but still not sure...SonnyWiFiHr wrote:5 man squad do not have all tools needed for OW kill zone. Not before Late May
You use VIP as activator (activate and run back) and you need Phantom for that . If Phantom is spotted (or if you do that with non Phantom soldier) your OW trap will fail and Advent will shoot at nearest or best target. If situation is bad your sniper can flank pod for sure kill.
To be honest, it was so long ago, I can't remember my early game tactics. I just build the guys the way I want, then I assess every mission/situation as it happens. I don't have any tricky maneuvers. I just use military tactics. I do know that my first campaign is almost over and I lost one soldier the entire time. I never run a mission without a Shinobi so I always have concealed scouting, if that's what your mean.SonnyWiFiHr wrote: This is early/mid game tactics. Your Specialist can't hack and your Assaults are bad.
Phantom will find targets to activate pod with grenade on concealed or unconcealed mission. Every pod on map can be activated like that.
They still can shoot and five man mission will be in most cases flawless.
Generally I only give talons to my assaults or sharpshooters and it works well. You can't just look at the numbers in the ammo text description and assume that's all that's happening. Everything stacks (or not), in hidden ways. BTW, I didn't see that level of enemies in April in my campaign, but I'm just playing on veteran. Sounds rough.SonnyWiFiHr wrote: Advent did not fire a shot mission will be every other mission. I m counting 30 in row including Heavy supply raid (heavy MEC + Berserker + 2x MEC + 2x Muton Centurion and Shieldbearer in freaking April). I did not build single Talon yet and I can't afford any (+1 crit dmg is not enough)
I gave Close Encounters to two of my assaults, but I found it awkward to use. You can only use it with a blue move, so you can't use it with run and gun. Since I never use shotguns at a distance, it doesn't work for my style. The only way I could get it to work well was to use OverDrive Serum. Which you can only use once - I actually like OD serum...SonnyWiFiHr wrote: With early good build grenadier you don need to engage at all. Until force level 6.
I don't put rapid fire on Assaults (Close Encounters is better) this is for Gunner and Ranger
Anyway, CE came in handy sometimes, but not enough for me to stick with it. I ended up Respec'ing one of the Assaults so I could get Rapid Fire and it took forever. I hate Respec... I'm pretty sure that's the only time I did that.
With Rapid Fire, you simply run and gun and shoot twice, so if you want to kill a single high level enemy it's what I use. Talons, Laser sight, Close and Personal perk, gives you high crits every time. My Assaults NEVER shoot unless they are standing next to the enemy. So I (almost) always end the turn with all their points left so I can use them in the alien turn. But they also get the best armor, and vests, so if they run into an unclear situation, they can hold out. I try not to do that though.
Sounds like this was a "Snare" mission, where Advent feeds you an "easy" mission and then drops an anvil on your head...SonnyWiFiHr wrote: I just attacked M2 trooper with my best soldiers including Assault. I could not kill it even with Assault + Crit. Ranger, Center Mass Gunner, Bomber Grenadier . Bomber Grenadier can just put some minor red fog on it, Assault - minor red fog, Crit Ranger - miss , Gunner at this point can do only suppression. Next turn I had reinforcements including MEC + M2. Every 2nd turn reinforcements on Extr. Light mission including M2 soldier. It was hell and I was lucky. Now I m rushing Magnetic because Laser is child toy compared to M2. They can run your suppression because they have good HP and everything I have is just minor red fog on them. You need four good shots in row to kill one. This one was Sentinel with 15 HP. I m encountering troops with 12- 20 HP (and more) in May. Basic Viper is just 9, Viper Elite is 20 with 25 dodge (this is -25 aim on open).
Last edited by SpinDoctor on Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:53 pm
Re: Implacable Rangers
OK, got it. This doesn't really match my style, but it may be worth considering at some point. I always have a Shinobi and scout as well as possible before engaging. If my Shinobi is the only one concealed, and spots a pod worth engaging, my initial MO is to simply arrange the team (some will OW), out of LOS and let the sniper activate. Then I handle what's left as needed. I've never been flanked by an unseen pod, because you can pretty much tell where you need to look for the enemy, just from the terrain, so that hasn't been a concern yet. I have drones flank me more than I like... Anyhow, I know some people play without a Shinobi, but that makes zero sense to me...Psieye wrote:I'm ignoring the rest of the discussion you're having with SonnyWiFiHr to concentrate on one question.
I presume you're specifically talking about snipers who shoot, as opposed to holobots who don't.SpinDoctor wrote:Why would you ever need a Sniper with Phantom?
Phantom on a sniper who intends to shoot is useful because the tactical needs change as a mission progresses. At the start, you have very little scouted territory and Advent could be anywhere. If you're not prepared for it, flipping an unseen pod to Orange alert with your loud sniper shot and subsequently getting flanked by them is potentially mission-terminating bad. Sometimes, you bump into your first pod very quickly and you're forced to start shooting (or fragging, which is louder). So now you're uncertain if an Orange pod will walk into your flank if you advance. A sniper has little use until you've scouted sufficient territory to be free of Orange flanks, so Phantom makes sure they're not a liability. Unlike shinobi, Phantom snipers can't equip SMGs so their detection radius is bigger - that only matters if you want to move forward with them, they'll do fine watching the flank for pods coming towards them.
Actually the thing that my make my missions somewhat different is that I use "True Concealment" since it doesn't make sense to me to have a timer running if Advent doesn't know you are there. If you have a revealed start, then it doesn't matter...
Re: Implacable Rangers
One shinobi can only look in one direction (relative to the squad) at a time. The phantom sniper is to watch the flank during the middle of the mission (assuming the squad needs to move to some objective) while the shinobi looks ahead. This all assumes you don't have a personnel shortage - sometimes you don't have enough healthy shinobi for all the missions you want one on. Now, if you're mixing things up with e.g. 2 shionbi or 3 snipers in a squad, then things get more interesting.SpinDoctor wrote:I always have a Shinobi and scout as well as possible before engaging. If my Shinobi is the only one concealed, and spots a pod worth engaging, my initial MO is to simply arrange the team (some will OW), out of los and let the sniper activate. Then I handle what's left as needed.
Actually the thing that my make my missions somewhat different is that I use "True Concealment" since it doesn't make sense to me to have a timer running is Advent doesn't know you are there. If you have a revealed start, then it doesn't matter...
Try hiding (i.e. breaking LoS, units compulsively peek around corners) the CE assault, or hunker+AidProt-advancing when you know there's only one pod on the map. Heck, you don't need to advance, the enemies will advance towards you (especially if they can't shoot at >0% hit chance).SpinDoctor wrote: I gave Close Encounters to two of my assaults, but I found it awkward to use.
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- Posts: 115
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:53 pm
Re: Implacable Rangers
OK, the sniper thing is getting more clear, but I generally used DFA snipers so once they find some high ground they typically are not gong anywhere, until I'm certain he needs to move. I did the Forge mission last night (my last GP) and the evac zone was on high ground, no more than 10 tiles from the starting point. He never moved from that high evac zone the whole time. He got a lot of easy kills from that one spot, including a one shot kill on a full health Andromedon. I was pretty amazed by that, but he has a plasma lance, with blue screens. it was half a map away.Psieye wrote:One shinobi can only look in one direction (relative to the squad) at a time. The phantom sniper is to watch the flank during the middle of the mission (assuming the squad needs to move to some objective) while the shinobi looks ahead. This all assumes you don't have a personnel shortage - sometimes you don't have enough healthy shinobi for all the missions you want one on. Now, if you're mixing things up with e.g. 2 shionbi or 3 snipers in a squad, then things get more interesting.SpinDoctor wrote:I always have a Shinobi and scout as well as possible before engaging. If my Shinobi is the only one concealed, and spots a pod worth engaging, my initial MO is to simply arrange the team (some will OW), out of los and let the sniper activate. Then I handle what's left as needed.
Actually the thing that my make my missions somewhat different is that I use "True Concealment" since it doesn't make sense to me to have a timer running is Advent doesn't know you are there. If you have a revealed start, then it doesn't matter...
Try hiding (i.e. breaking LoS, units compulsively peek around corners) the CE assault, or hunker+AidProt-advancing when you know there's only one pod on the map. Heck, you don't need to advance, the enemies will advance towards you (especially if they can't shoot at >0% hit chance).SpinDoctor wrote: I gave Close Encounters to two of my assaults, but I found it awkward to use.
Anyway, I've just never found traveling snipers to be that useful. Probably because I haven't taken the time to explore the advantages, but also for some reason, they don't "feel" as effective. When I take a sniper shot, I want it dead, right now... I have two snapshot snipers that I rarely use, but I might have used them more often with phantom. So I will consider that more closely.
Also, now that I think about it, I have a Technical with Phantom (which is crazy useful) as an AWC perk, so I might be getting the same effect from a different unit. But it was pretty late in the game when she got that ability.
Re: Implacable Rangers
It's definitely a playstyle thing, where 'playstyle' includes how much you infiltrate missions. When 25+ enemies is considered "situation normal" for a timed GOp, a DfA sniper cannot afford to risk getting to high ground - if it was Ironman, the campaign could end (because only A-teams should be doing 25+ enemies on an RNF timer) from giving into high ground temptation. Mind, the DfA is still useful without high ground - the extra aim for shooting things at range 50+ is still relevant.SpinDoctor wrote:I generally used DFA snipers so once they find some high ground they typically are not gong anywhere, until I'm certain he needs to move.
Note that a Snapshot sniper (or a Rapid Targetting one) can still shoot at range 50+. Just because they have Snapshot doesn't mean they have to be near the squad.
- SonnyWiFiHr
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:57 pm
Re: Implacable Rangers
They do not fall behind. Snapshoter is heavy hitter. If they flank and use Serial they outperform DfA. Phantom Perk is still here for that next turn hidden flank. Then you stop using Shinobi if AWC give you Ghost perks on them. They are pod wipe - but this is RND (AWC perks and map situation).
On timed missions sometimes all other members of squad can just watch while Snapshooter (late) is clearing map. I m using them as scouts because having Shinobi on every mission is very rare, very late and risky. Baby Shinobi is worthless so I will add another heavy hitter Phantom for long range flanks.
If you did not move you have all high range bonuses. Aggression for crits, Hunter's Instincts and Serial. Kubikuri is powerful option. Scout ahead and place them on good position activate pod for auto flank. Wipe out the pod. Then use it like regular sniper. Scout with Shinobi move Sharshooter behind LoS and shoot Advent in the back. Rest of squad can be rookies if you have luck to activate Serial two times.
Damn Good Ground and Center Mass are not important for them.
My point in this long debate is - if you can see Advent you can plan ahead and avoid yellow alert traps . OW can be far more reliable if you move Phantom to reveal the map and positions of Advent - it is not Shinobi thing. Then you just move someone to activate this trap. You will be advancing and having OW traps.
Second point - this can fail by simple drone
On timed missions sometimes all other members of squad can just watch while Snapshooter (late) is clearing map. I m using them as scouts because having Shinobi on every mission is very rare, very late and risky. Baby Shinobi is worthless so I will add another heavy hitter Phantom for long range flanks.
If you did not move you have all high range bonuses. Aggression for crits, Hunter's Instincts and Serial. Kubikuri is powerful option. Scout ahead and place them on good position activate pod for auto flank. Wipe out the pod. Then use it like regular sniper. Scout with Shinobi move Sharshooter behind LoS and shoot Advent in the back. Rest of squad can be rookies if you have luck to activate Serial two times.
Damn Good Ground and Center Mass are not important for them.
My point in this long debate is - if you can see Advent you can plan ahead and avoid yellow alert traps . OW can be far more reliable if you move Phantom to reveal the map and positions of Advent - it is not Shinobi thing. Then you just move someone to activate this trap. You will be advancing and having OW traps.
Second point - this can fail by simple drone
The Preacher