Bug? Hunker Works Against Melee?

[Surrealistik]

Is Hunker intended to work against melee, including melee that flanks and doesn't attack through cover?

This doesn't seem to make any sense as Hunker = huddling down/going to ground and conforming to your cover to avoid gunfire as opposed to bracing yourself for being attacked in melee. If anything it should afford a melee attacker bonuses to hit, and penalties to dodge their attacks as huddling on the ground probably should compromise your ability to deal with being rushed with fixed bayonets or worse.

[Surrealistik]

So is this intended?

[Surrealistik]

To be clear, I am running the latest version of LW, and no mods.

[johnnylump]

So hunker was never set not to work against melee, even in vanilla. It's just being noticed because the aliens have it now. I'll think over whether I want to keep it or not.

[Phantom]

I really like that the aliens can now hunker down! How could they not hunker down in vanilla version....
In melee in makes no sense for me for applying hunker down boni, maybe only on tiles where you attack through cover (enemy is not flanked).

[mordewolt]

It is really awkward to strike someone with your hand (or rather, the hand extention), who's elevation differs even slightly. A point could be made about mutons, especizlly zerks - they have massive arms and aren't that much concerned about exposing themselves for retaliation from down below due to excessive amount of HP and armor, even for the basic mutons, but even then the effort and the distance of the punch\slash greatly outweighs the distance and effort required to dodge it since i doubt they ever think about anything more complex than a straight gun butt punch, basic gun punch to the chest or grapple+appercut.
As a matter of balance, there is no issue with it either, you waste an otherwise useful action point to end your turn and become slightly less able to be hit. Formiddable gives half of that benefit and doesn't even cost an action point.

[Nagul]

So hunker was never set not to work against melee, even in vanilla. It's just being noticed because the aliens have it now. I'll think over whether I want to keep it or not.

From a pure gameplay perspective, it shouldn't work against "flanking" (not attacking through cover) melee attacks. There aren't many options to counter hunker down and they are often tied to limited use abilities or big cooldown, not mentioning those options are available to only some builds.

Shinobi's greatest strength is their reliability in delivering damage, and they *should* be the counter to an enemy hunkering down. Losing a turn or two on timed missions just because an advent officer decided to hunker down and you don't have any run & gun ready is really frustrating.

This is to the point that I usually avoid flashbang + suppress on timed missions because in many cases it just makes me lose a turn. Hunker down shouldn't be an AI winning move.

[JoeShmo]

Not seeing the issue in a realistic manner.

Someone who is "hunkered down" has a much lower profile than someone standing upright, which means there is less space to make contact during an attempted action.

"He ducked" is a pretty common occurrence in a fight, and there have been many a story about people failing to hit a target that was not moving ( with a blunt object no doubt ).

I mean...as a gameplay design melee already has a chance to miss, correct? To miss a giant Muton / Faceless / Sentry Gun / Spark / etc. right in front of you.

[mordewolt]

I mean...as a gameplay design melee already has a chance to miss, correct? To miss a giant Muton / Faceless / Sentry Gun / Spark / etc. right in front of you.

It's more of a "glance over, without actually doing any damage" than a "miss".

[Surrealistik]

Not seeing the issue in a realistic manner.

Someone who is "hunkered down" has a much lower profile than someone standing upright, which means there is less space to make contact during an attempted action.

"He ducked" is a pretty common occurrence in a fight, and there have been many a story about people failing to hit a target that was not moving ( with a blunt object no doubt ).

I mean...as a gameplay design melee already has a chance to miss, correct? To miss a giant Muton / Faceless / Sentry Gun / Spark / etc. right in front of you.

Hunker is more conforming to cover than really prepping for a melee assault; it's not bobbing and weaving, it's going to ground (you can't really do both at the same time effectively), which should probably make you more vulnerable to melee if anything.

[mordewolt]

Hunker is more conforming to cover than really prepping for a melee assault; it's not bobbing and weaving, it's going to ground (you can't really do both at the same time effectively), which should probably make you more vulnerable to melee if anything.

If the wording of my explanation is too complicated, you can do a fun little experiment - task someone to lay on the floor and parry with their feet, and try to strike him with a stick about an arm's length.

People have had an actual need to perform this task for millenia, and this is how spears were invented, but if you don't trust inventions of necessity, you can always double-check for yourself.

[Surrealistik]

If the wording of my explanation is too complicated, you can do a fun little experiment - task someone to lay on the floor and parry with their feet, and try to strike him with a stick about an arm's length.

People have had an actual need to perform this task for millenia, and this is how spears were invented, but if you don't trust inventions of necessity, you can always double-check for yourself.

Not too complicated at all, but that's not exactly what's going on with hunker. Even if it was, or you assume the stance was adapted as melee enemies closed, meleeing enemies are berserkers, mutons, chryssalids and stun lancers; the stun lancer weapon will mess you up on contact via electrical discharge, whether or not you're parrying with your feet; the others probably wouldn't be meaningfully dissuaded at all by foot peddling from prone, and certainly nowhere near the extent of the penalties imposed by hunker (though it would be hilarious to see X-Com troopers try this).

[mordewolt]

Not too complicated at all, but that's not exactly what's going on with hunker. Even if it was, or you assume the stance was adapted as melee enemies closed, meleeing enemies are berserkers, mutons, chryssalids and stun lancers; the stun lancer weapon will mess you up on contact via electrical discharge, whether or not you're parrying with your feet; the others probably wouldn't be meaningfully dissuaded at all by foot peddling from prone, and certainly nowhere near the extent of the penalties imposed by hunker (though it would be hilarious to see X-Com troopers try this).

I already adressed all of it. You spend an action point to perform a defensive maneuver - for stun lancers, you just catch the baton with your boots - no way a set-to-incapacitate tazer arcs through the sole. On that note, a set-to-kill tazer wouldn't ark either, since like right now you can go and pick-up astm F2413-08 certified single-molded boots, that will withstand an arc of 18 kilovolts for 100$. and for mutons, you just roll. What they are going to do? They are hulking masses of flesh, at worst it's a straight cannon-punch to the ground, and at best it's an aimed sweeping kick with a stomp at the end.

Again - there is a still chance to hit, but if you're committed to defend yourself and pinned down to a corner, it's easier to wither you down and wait for you to make a mistake than to actually outright hit you, unless the attacker wants to mow you down en-masse and accept the ensuing minor damages associated with it.

The thing is - nobody wants to accept any damage if there is a chance to go out unscathed. Again - zerkers, right. But zerkers just go forward until there is nowhere else to go, they don't do finesse stuff thingie, they just punch infront of themselves.

On that note - exo-suit outer hydraulic shell is basically a faraday-cage, and since nobody wants to use them as is, soeone can do something about it *hint-hint*

[Surrealistik]

I already adressed all of it. You spend an action point to perform a defensive maneuver - for stun lancers, you just catch the baton with your boots - no way a set-to-incapacitate tazer arcs through the sole. On that note, a set-to-kill tazer wouldn't ark either, since like right now you can go and pick-up astm F2413-08 certified single-molded boots, that will withstand an arc of 18 kilovolts for 100$.

They're pretty clearly set to lethal (game is explicit about this), and sure, you can get some shockproof boots, but all it takes is a love tap to anywhere uncovered and you're done son.

and for mutons, you just roll. What they are going to do? They are hulking masses of flesh, at worst it's a straight cannon-punch to the ground, and at best it's an aimed sweeping kick with a stomp at the end.

Hulking masses of flesh that evidently have enough finesse and agility to parry and counter attack; I don't think a defensive stance on the ground foot peddling or rolling (this isn't Dark Souls) is going to seriously dissuade or repel them.

Again - there is a still chance to hit, but if you're committed to defend yourself and pinned down to a corner, it's easier to wither you down and wait for you to make a mistake than to actually outright hit you, unless the attacker wants to mow you down en-masse and accept the ensuing minor damages associated with it.

The thing is - nobody wants to accept any damage if there is a chance to go out unscathed. Again - zerkers, right. But zerkers just go forward until there is nowhere else to go, they don't do finesse stuff thingie, they just punch infront of themselves.

I don't think any of the aliens are particularly concerned with taking minor injuries; maybe the Stun Lancers, but certainly not any of the melee aliens. Mutons don't give a shit, and Andromedons, Zerkers and Chryssalids certainly don't.

At best you might have Hunker to give you a slight bonus to defense/dodge if you abstract the assumption that it represents a dynamic mode of defensive preparation/behaviour, but as stated, it should have nowhere near the impact that it does.

[mordewolt]

At best you might have Hunker to give you a slight bonus to defense/dodge if you abstract the assumption that it represents a dynamic mode of defensive preparation/behaviour, but as stated, it should have nowhere near the impact that it does.

It would make sense for the bonus to diminish with each succesfully dodgedattack, akin to the focus fire, but i still stand for it working against melee.

[Surrealistik]

At best you might have Hunker to give you a slight bonus to defense/dodge if you abstract the assumption that it represents a dynamic mode of defensive preparation/behaviour, but as stated, it should have nowhere near the impact that it does.

It would make sense for the bonus to diminish with each succesfully dodgedattack, akin to the focus fire, but i still stand for it working against melee.

As said before I can only see it working against melee at a substantially diminished level vs non-flanking ranged, and only if the concept is abstracted/expanded to include the idea of assuming a self-defense stance when engaged.