Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Forum to support developing of community project to update Long War 2 to work with the War of the Chosen expansion.
ginyu549
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:58 pm

Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby ginyu549 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:08 pm

Hi all, just leaving a suggestion here. Use or ignore it as you see fit.

For me playing WOTC it seemed a little something was off when you start the game with the chosen already active. Seems to me that the chosen should be "called out" by the elders to "deal with" X-com once they become a threat. My suggestion is to have the Chosen "activate" once X-com completes the black site mission, since they have now moved beyond the status of "annoyance" to the status of "a real threat". It seems both more dramatic and more thematic than simply having the chosen there from the beginning.

It seemed to me that dealing with the chosen should take a little longer than it does in vanilla, and with the extra length of the game with LW2 having them show up later, or even spacing out their appearance over the course of the game would keep that content relevant throughout your play through, rather than having them all at once and eliminating them from the game so you can play the rest of it without them.

It might even be better to have the first show up after the black site, the second after you kill an avatar, and the last one when you complete the psi-gate. That way the added elements of the chosen are constantly in play throughout the game.

Just an idea.

The13Inquisitor
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:10 pm

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby The13Inquisitor » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:16 am

That's not a bad idea, but at the same time, gating the Chosens' appearances like that means you can exploit it so you only ever have to deal with one at a time.

Time gating their appearances might be a better idea.

ginyu549
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:58 pm

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby ginyu549 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:20 am

Indeed, maybe time would be better, or possibly global or regional vigilance, or number of missions run or total days of infiltration in a region, or the number of rebels in havens or a combination of some of those things. I was just thinking of ways the game might seem more alive? organic? responsive? narrative? in regards to the way the story and content of the chosen plays out in the game...

Vanilla is very front-loaded as far as the way the narrative and content plays out. I was very disappointed that after I killed all the chosen they were just...gone. The rest of the game seemed anti-climatic after that.

The13Inquisitor
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:10 pm

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby The13Inquisitor » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:54 am

I can't really fault you on the frontloading assessment.

The tutorial voice over sums that up and the first few times you face the Chosen, especially the Assassin, they can really mess you up.

Which is a good thing and it's probably going to make more than a few people rush the Ring for the factions when this mod finally goes live.

But good god, is the early game going to be brutal. Not to mention base assaults, especially the first one.

And that brings up the Doom Counter and how obnoxious unlocking it is, especially when the AI decides to camp the only region you've unlocked a base assault in.

Antigonos
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:47 pm

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby Antigonos » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:09 am

Chosen are cool but I personally think they don't belong in LW2. The expansion focuses a lot (too much?) on the narrative aspect of the game while LW2 is more like a sand box game where your make your own stories. I would be happy if I had LW2 with only WOTC's new items, enemies, maps and all the weird vanilla bug fixes.

Deadput
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:59 am

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby Deadput » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:02 am

Antigonos wrote:Chosen are cool but I personally think they don't belong in LW2. The expansion focuses a lot (too much?) on the narrative aspect of the game while LW2 is more like a sand box game where your make your own stories. I would be happy if I had LW2 with only WOTC's new items, enemies, maps and all the weird vanilla bug fixes.


But why would you get rid of a major part of the expansion? Plus I don't think you can get rid of them, not without going through a lot of hassle to do so at which point it's not worth doing since almost everyone else is not going to like part of the game being taken out.

How about we get rid of Avatars and the Codex while we're at it then?

dim1900
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:28 am

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby dim1900 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:38 pm

Deadput wrote:
Antigonos wrote:Chosen are cool but I personally think they don't belong in LW2. The expansion focuses a lot (too much?) on the narrative aspect of the game while LW2 is more like a sand box game where your make your own stories. I would be happy if I had LW2 with only WOTC's new items, enemies, maps and all the weird vanilla bug fixes.


But why would you get rid of a major part of the expansion? Plus I don't think you can get rid of them, not without going through a lot of hassle to do so at which point it's not worth doing since almost everyone else is not going to like part of the game being taken out.

How about we get rid of Avatars and the Codex while we're at it then?


Speaking only for myself, the reason I would get rid of the Chosen is because they have "too much" personality and tend to railroad the player's head narrative. I actually really like their personalities and how they taunt both XCOM and ADVENT ("Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while"...lol), so for me it would be bitter sweet to not include them. I have the same opinion about the factions and their hero units, I think they have too much individual style and personality. For me, the beauty of XCOM2 is you have a group of generic soldiers fighting a group of generic aliens and it's up to the player to forge the narrative.

Morethanjustasloth
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby Morethanjustasloth » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:38 am

I would definitely say earlier than that. maybe after a region liberation or something. You did just take 1/16th of their total territory. This would put XCOM on the scale of "Considerable Threat."

The13Inquisitor
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:10 pm

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby The13Inquisitor » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:47 pm

Morethanjustasloth wrote:I would definitely say earlier than that. maybe after a region liberation or something. You did just take 1/16th of their total territory. This would put XCOM on the scale of "Considerable Threat."


This makes a lot of sense.

If this were the event that triggered Lost and Abandoned or unlocked the Factions simultaneously, it'd both make sense and balance them.

At the same time the argument can also be made for having the Chosen and Factions active from day dot.

Staggering access to the Factions and thus the Ring also takes pressure off your build order, supplies and resources and will likely save a whole lot of aggravation regarding losing veteran soldiers to Chosen BS. The Assassin's variety in particular.

Yenreb
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:16 am

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby Yenreb » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:15 pm

Considering the game opens with XCOM recovering the Commander (AFAIK LW2 didn't change that plot point) - a major asset for the Elders - I think it makes sense that the Chosen be active from Day 1. The Elders didn't consider XCOM a threat... until they recovered the Commander.

prko
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:08 pm

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby prko » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:05 am

Ignoring the Long War 2 aspect, if I were the one to implement the Chosen, I'd go in a slightly different direction:

1) I'd definitely make them less funny and witty and more dark in nature. I don't want XCOM2 to be a comedy. Also definitely a lot less over the top.
2) XCOM would not fight them in person until they assault the Chosen fortress (perhaps in Avenger defense initiated by the Chosen, but don't have a strong opinion on that).
3) Each Chosen would have a set of preferred minions (i.e. the Hunter could use modified Chryssalids as distraction and repurposed Stun Lancers to keep his enemies stationary; the Warlock could obviously use converted Advent Priests that worship him plus something else).
4) On each mission where a Chosen normally shows up, he summons a squad of his cohorts instead.
5) In the Chosen fortress, his cohorts defend it (+maybe mechanical units, MECs and Turrets). Or each can even have their theme - i.e. the Hunter lives in a fortress that has its first floor overrun by reanimated Advent and by beefy Lost.
6) The only tactical interaction with the Chosen themselves would be on the second floor of the fortress and they would be truly menacing, to the point where a squad full of max-ranks would still experience some casualties.

Optional and a little over the top in itself: Beating the fortress floor 2 would be the only way to rescue any soldier/NPC previously captured by that Chosen, and only a chance at best. Or maybe the Warlock would decide to use those he captured as Spectral Zombies or just mind control them to shoot at you until you kill the Warlock through his superior defenses or decide, as an easier solution to reducing enemy firepower, to shoot the fallen comrades.

Now this would be climatic and one might actually fear them.

Mabs
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:40 pm

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby Mabs » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:48 pm

The13Inquisitor wrote:That's not a bad idea, but at the same time, gating the Chosens' appearances like that means you can exploit it so you only ever have to deal with one at a time.

I think it'd be better for them all to activate at once, but depending on playstyle being able to prevent them or at least delaying their activation for some time.
Yenreb wrote:Considering the game opens with XCOM recovering the Commander (AFAIK LW2 didn't change that plot point) - a major asset for the Elders - I think it makes sense that the Chosen be active from Day 1. The Elders didn't consider XCOM a threat... until they recovered the Commander.

This makes sense too, though. So I guess I can't really complain about them being active from the start.

thrawn007
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:21 pm

Re: Suggestion: Don't Start With The Chosen Active

Postby thrawn007 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:34 pm

I think not including the Chosen in any form would be a mistake. However, I do agree that they can overrun the game, so putting them in a more limited role would be preferable.

What if...
1) Each chosen was assigned a single territory, and only has their full power within that territory.
A) Their fortress is there.
B) The chosen member can interfere with missions in their territory by directly showing up in missions.
C) Missions to locate the chosen fortress or in other ways fight back against the that chosen can only be done in that territory. (Basically, the liberation mission path would be an alternate set of liberation missions when working in that territory, focused on the chosen instead of the generic advent mission.
D) No black sites would be in a chosen region. (Advent runs those, the chosen focus on their own things.)
2) Chosen can exert their influence on adjacent regions
A) Chosen can send troops to interfere into missions. (Each chosen should have their own "army list" to keep them somewhat unique)
B) Chosen can spawn "dark events" in adjacent regions (I think each chosen should have their own set of dark events, that represent their buildup and their personal plots.)
C) Chosen can cause retaliations or attack the avenger in adjacent regions. (This is to make it more tempting to attack them instead of ignore them)

I also think the factions are a bit over the top for LW2. However, I love the idea of factions and think that some LW2 styled factions would be a great idea for making resistance in territories more personalized.


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