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Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:35 pm
by Aetherlift
Gunners are a great class so its not really a huge issue but I do have to say with every other class I'm always extremely excited to be able to upgrade their secondary whereas with gunners I just don't care and am quite happy to leave them with basic knives pretty much forever, just because its so incredibly rare that I actually use the knife, and when I do its still very underwhelming. I dunno if this is something that's even actually a problem, but I figured I'd post the feedback anyway.
I think if having an incentive to upgrade gunner secondaries is a desired outcome a potential solution might be making combatives (without the dodge increase) baseline? It's a really cool ability but there's basically no chance I'd ever pick it over either of the other perks at that tier because the other ones at that tier are useful basically every single turn, when combatives is extremely situational and will probably only come up a handful of times over an entire campaign (since it requires 1. a melee enemy 2. who actually gets a turn to attack 3. and isnt flashbanged 4. and out of all the possible targets they pick the gunner).
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:37 pm
by Sines
I don't really mind the Knife being underwhelming, as the Gunner is probably one of the best classes out of the box. Free Suppression and Area Suppression? The Cannon being arguably the best weapon type in the game? They have so many good things going for them, that a mediocre secondary is basically the tradeoff.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:54 pm
by ConradKurze
I kinda wish you could replace some secondaries with Pistols, so you could take them without impairing mobility.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:28 pm
by Aetherlift
yeah i don't think its really a balance problem. the problem (if one exists) is like more like a missed opportunity for something cool?
combined with the problem that combatives already is extremely cool, but is extremely not worth taking
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:39 pm
by trihero
ConradKurze wrote:I kinda wish you could replace some secondaries with Pistols, so you could take them without impairing mobility.
I honestly don't run into situations where I wish I even had a pistol; you have some pretty important skills to use with your chain gun than a pistol. I guess if you want to be picky you would say lightning hands is free damage, but that's about it and it could take 40+ days to train the right pistol perks.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:57 pm
by Antifringe
If it helps any, the knife exists as a stopgap measure for situations where the gunner is forced to fight at close range. It's not obvious, but the gunner actually takes a penalty to his aim for using his primary at close range. If you've ever tried to shotgun an alien at pointblank with a gunner, you might have noticed that the to-hit odds were very poor. This is why.
The knife is there to address those situations where you have to finish off a wounded alien in high cover right now, and only the gunner can get close enough. It's not useless, and I've been glad to have it a few times, but you can't really leverage it either. It's insurance, not a thing you plan around.
Combatives isn't really about making the knife better, it's about gaining +10 Dodge and a chance to block melee attacks. Aliens prioritize soldiers using suppression, so gunners attract an unholy amount of hostile attention, and a passive defensive buff makes sense. It's not great, but that's why it's there, assuming I'm reading the design intent correctly.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:10 pm
by ConradKurze
trihero wrote:ConradKurze wrote:I kinda wish you could replace some secondaries with Pistols, so you could take them without impairing mobility.
I honestly don't run into situations where I wish I even had a pistol; you have some pretty important skills to use with your chain gun than a pistol. I guess if you want to be picky you would say lightning hands is free damage, but that's about it and it could take 40+ days to train the right pistol perks.
Gunners have a huge range penalty at close range, so you get all up in that 2 hp dudes face and... 70% chance to hit. Not a huge risk, but it would be 100% for a pistol, and assuming you've advanced your pistols a little bit it will kill.
I've yet to give anyone at all Pistol skills from the AWC, but I have used pistols a few times (they benefit from Center Mass' +1 damage) on Sharpshooters or Gunners.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:18 pm
by Valaska
I've talked about this on the forum before, actually. The gunner's knife isn't as underwhelming as you would think, its a very excellent way to finish off enemies that are critically injured and get too close... And if you are making them into a tank, it can be a way to possibly stop melee attackers dead in their tracks before they attack.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:44 pm
by Aetherlift
Combatives would be a legit option if it was +some amount of defense instead of dodge but grazes still cancel suppression so a tiny bit of dodge on gunners, where you're not really even gonna be able to stack it with other dodge sources, is just really meh
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:19 am
by Valaska
Aetherlift wrote:Combatives would be a legit option if it was +some amount of defense instead of dodge but grazes still cancel suppression so a tiny bit of dodge on gunners, where you're not really even gonna be able to stack it with other dodge sources, is just really meh
Thats true, but at the same time if the objective is a tank standing out in the front lines then the dodge works out and you aren't too terribly worried about suppression and more survival. Grazes get a little ridiculous so adjusting the band can help too!
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:37 am
by cerebrawl
Ever seen Chryssallids with lightning reflexes, that activate and attack on the same turn?
Combatives seems like the ultimate counter to that. I haven't gotten to Chryssalids yet in LW2 though, maybe they no longer have lightning reflexes, but I wouldn't be so sure.
Btw, if you hotfix the AWC perk allocation restrictions, you can get sword perks on the gunner. Gunners with Fleche are pretty sweet, Bladestorm compliments Combatives well too.
Sidenote: even as-is, I've gotten use for it when the gunner is camping on a roof and ADVENT runs into the hard cover below. Just drop down and shank them with 98% accuracy.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:08 am
by GavinRuneblade
cerebrawl wrote:
Sidenote: even as-is, I've gotten use for it when the gunner is camping on a roof and ADVENT runs into the hard cover below. Just drop down and shank them with 98% accuracy.
I move and shank often, not just drop and shank. Also shank + shoot is fun.
But nothing is quite as rewarding as combatives triggering on a muton.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:11 am
by food
I moved the sawed-off over to the gunner and gave the targetting scanner to rangers.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:14 am
by cerebrawl
food wrote:I moved the sawed-off over to the gunner and gave the targetting scanner to rangers.
I've done a bit of class tweaking myself, but haven't touched weapons yet. I want to give Psi Operatives swords though... I've got a bunch of Witcher characters in my character pool, so the idea came naturally.
Btw if Rangers got the scanner, and Gunner got the sawn-off, did you give the knife to the Sharpshooters?
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:22 am
by Ithuriel
Would anybody think it was overpowered if the gunner could move and use his knife in the same action- e.g. like the Shinobi's Fleche but without the damage bonus? It would end his turn when used regardless.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:50 pm
by GavinRuneblade
Ithuriel wrote:Would anybody think it was overpowered if the gunner could move and use his knife in the same action- e.g. like the Shinobi's Fleche but without the damage bonus? It would end his turn when used regardless.
This is already possible. Via the awc a gunner can get flèche. Adding it as a base ability is not really necessary.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:52 pm
by Ithuriel
Huh,they can get Fleche? Mind you, I recruited almost all my soldiers before the AWC patch went through- does it unlock a drastic number of new abilities?
That said- I was suggesting this as a base ability, not just one that the occasional Gunner COULD roll. You'd have to remove the damage bonus from it to prevent it from being overpowered, though.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:52 pm
by GavinRuneblade
Ithuriel wrote:Huh,they can get Fleche? Mind you, I recruited almost all my soldiers before the AWC patch went through- does it unlock a drastic number of new abilities?
That said- I was suggesting this as a base ability, not just one that the occasional Gunner COULD roll. You'd have to remove the damage bonus from it to prevent it from being overpowered, though.
Right now gunner slash does not end turn. If they had stab as part of move as a base action it would pretty much have to end turn. If you want, right now you can move and stab, or stab and move, or stab and shoot. I don't really want to lose stab and shoot, which flèche as a base power pretty much requires. Especially since I can already walk and stab, which is good enough most of the time.
Besides, if they're yellow move away why aren't you shooting them?
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:38 pm
by cerebrawl
Ithuriel wrote:Huh,they can get Fleche? Mind you, I recruited almost all my soldiers before the AWC patch went through- does it unlock a drastic number of new abilities?
That said- I was suggesting this as a base ability, not just one that the occasional Gunner COULD roll. You'd have to remove the damage bonus from it to prevent it from being overpowered, though.
The knife is still weaker than the sword. But yes the AWC patching does unlock a drastic number of new abilities, somewhere around 25 were affected by the restriction bug.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:19 am
by Ithuriel
Is there any way to re-roll existing soldiers to the new perk system through console commands? A lot of the new options look really interesting, but I'd already recruited something like 28 of my current force of 33 before 1.1 hit >.<
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:16 am
by cerebrawl
Ithuriel wrote:Is there any way to re-roll existing soldiers to the new perk system through console commands? A lot of the new options look really interesting, but I'd already recruited something like 28 of my current force of 33 before 1.1 hit >.<
Only in bulk, there's a console command to reroll the AWC perks of everyone. LWForceAWCRerolls.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:39 am
by Ithuriel
Does that also reset all learned AWC perks though? Just b/c I'm in late June, really don't want to lose everything >.<
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:54 am
by cerebrawl
Ithuriel wrote:Does that also reset all learned AWC perks though? Just b/c I'm in late June, really don't want to lose everything >.<
I've read that it does, haven't used it myself.
You could ini edit to turn on instant AWC training to put you back at your current level though.
Debug settings at the top of the XCcomLW_AWCPack.ini
Code: Select all
[LW_AWCPack_Integrated.UIArmory_AWCExpandedPromotion_LW]
; debug settings
ALWAYSSHOW=false ;display all future abilities instead of displaying "locked"
ALLOWTRAININGINARMORY=false ;allows training of abilities when UI accessed from Armory, not just from AWC
Change those to true.
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:21 am
by FreedomFighterEx
cerebrawl wrote:Only in bulk, there's a console command to reroll the AWC perks of everyone. LWForceAWCRerolls.
Would this affect the soldiers that are on-going infiltration?
Re: Gunner secondary seems underwhelming
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:28 am
by cerebrawl
FreedomFighterEx wrote:cerebrawl wrote:Only in bulk, there's a console command to reroll the AWC perks of everyone. LWForceAWCRerolls.
Would this affect the soldiers that are on-going infiltration?
Probaby, haven't tried it.