Rifle Suppression and related OW skill tradeoffs

[Jacke]

After reading about trihero's 0% Supply Raid and the discussion about it here:

http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... =25#p32132

I'm seeing Gunners in a better light. Not a cure-all, but more important than I thought. Their others skills are good, but only they get Area Suppression. And having multiple Gunners makes it better.

It's common to do Overwatch builds on Rangers. And it's important not to ignore primary weapon skills on Specialists and Technicals, especially if they're used as Haven Advisors (what I like to use Technicals for).

Now besides AWC skills, Rangers, Specialists, and Technicals also get Suppression, what used to be called Rifle Suppression in earlier XCOM.

But how worthwhile is Suppression on these 3 classes? Especially considering the other two other possible skills. Obviously, getting AWC Overwatch perks can influence this.

Speaking of which, the Overwatch perks were discussed here:

http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... 16&t=23858

For Rangers, taking Suppression means passing up Locked On and Pump Action. Locked On is the likely desired alternate, helping with Light 'Em Up, Rapid Fire, and Rapid Reaction.

BTW, does Locked On apply to shots on succeeding turns? Both deliberate and reaction shots?

For Specialists, it means passing up Field Medic and Air Drop. This clashes with both medic and non-medic builds. Both add consumable charges, but are still considered important.

Technicals don't get the important reaction shot buff Cool Under Pressure except as a AWC skill.

To take Suppression, Technicals pass up Fire in the Hole and Roust. Both of those either buff or provide a 1 or 2-use consumable. However, FitH really improves rocket accuracy and later equipment and perks can prove more rockets.

Not sure how good Roust is. Does low damage and appears to have a low chance of setting its targets on fire, but it does force them to move.

Anyhoo, your thoughts and experience with Suppression.

[HerrDoktorMencus]

In LW1, I always wanted to have a source of secondary suppression. But I feel like it's significantly less important in LW2 for a couple of reasons.

1. The AI is no longer seems pants on head retarded about when supressed (will shoot at other targets sometimes, non-suppressed AYYs no longer focus on the suppressor, etc.)

2. Flashbangs and especially sting grenades are superior sources of crowd control. (Can't be interupted, AOE)

3. Area suppression gives the ability to lock down multiple targets with just one source of suppression.

4. Generally smaller squad sizes means taking a secondary suppression build has greater opportunity cost. I'd always rather have a support grenadier. On big missions I'd rather bring two gunners.

On the other hand, rifle suppression itself is significantly better than in LW1 because you can now reload and suppress in the same turn.

Still ... the only time I've thought of where I might want to take a rifle suppression perk would be on a technical I was building for haven advisor duties. Be nice to have a source of suppression on rendezvous missions, and losing out on fire in the hole hurts less because I wouldn't want to be blowing up corpses anyway.

[trihero]

BTW, does Locked On apply to shots on succeeding turns? Both deliberate and reaction shots?

For Specialists, it means passing up Field Medic and Air Drop. This clashes with both medic and non-medic builds. Both add consumable charges, but are still considered important.

Yes locked on applies to shots on different turns (like if you overwatch a target, then you shoot the same target, you get the bonus), both deliberate and reaction.

I recommend suppression for technicals specifically if you use them for long missions, like 0% supply raids or HQ. You aren't getting multiple rockets anytime soon and being able to suppress gives them longevity.

Specialists, I don't recommend it. It defiinitely gives the specialist something to do besides just shoot lamely, but air drop is really nice (assuming you use a grenadier, otherwise forget it). Field medic is pretty good for long slog missions. If you watch xwynn's most recent HQ, I think you would see the benefits of having a medic specialist instead of his combat specialist, especially since he plays with red fog applied to both sides. I have taken suppression in a full overwatch specialist build and it's good, but it's just that usually air drop is better for grenadiers (grenades are strong, and only get stronger as you get into combat engineer), or you want a damn lot of medkits because 1 per character is either starting to get burdensome or ineffective due to high hp pools.

Rangers, I don't recommend it. I tried it in a full overwatch build, but rangers usually don't have time to suppress - either you are deliberately shooting twice per turn, or you are using Ever Vigilant by double dashing to a favorable position to overwatch. Suppression does NOT trigger rapid reaction, so there's that as well; you'd rather regular overwatch than suppression usually. I mean, it's nice to have in your back pocket because at the end of the day, suppression is just a good skill to have to lock out a wide range of enemy moves like grenades, poison, etc etc etc, and if your team was all rangers I probably would take it, but the ranger has a pretty important damage role to fulfill (unlike technical who runs out of rockets really fast) that is not served by suppressing.

[Jacke]

I recommend suppression for technicals specifically if you use them for long missions, like 0% supply raids or HQ. You aren't getting multiple rockets anytime soon and being able to suppress gives them longevity.

I imagine similarly you'd recommend they take Shredder too, as that gives them a strong tool throughout the battle. What do you think of the last 4 build choices? Only the Tech Sgt has one without a primary supporting choice.

Specialists, I don't recommend it. It defiinitely gives the specialist something to do besides just shoot lamely, but air drop is really nice (assuming you use a grenadier, otherwise forget it). Field medic is pretty good for long slog missions.

Again, what do you think of the remaining choices? The primary oriented ones are strong, but except for the last one which should go Full Override for non-medic and Restoration for medic, the left medic and right hacker choices are attractive. Although I'd likely avoid Threat Assessment just because of the increase in the Ail Protocol cooldown.

[trihero]

What remaining choices? I'm not understanding something.

[Jacke]

What remaining choices? I'm not understanding something.

The perk choices for the ranks after picking or skipping Suppression for Specialists (Cpl and up) and Technicals (SSgt and up). For example, for a balanced Specialist and a primary oriented Technical, I would think of going with these.

Specialist
Cool Under Pressure - Revival Protocol - Airdrop - Failsafe - Sentinel - Scanning Protocol / Killzone - Full Override

Technical
Suppression - Fortify - Shredder - Tandem Warheads / Formidable - Javelin Rockets / Incinerator - Salvo - Rapid Fire

I was wanting your latest thoughts on what to go with for these perks.

For my current thinking, where there's one skill, that's the one I would go with for various reasons. Where there's two, I'm more unsure, but would tend to go with the first choice. And I'd like to keep it to one choice, as there are other builds for these classes either certain (Special Medic all left-side) or rare, just one or two soldiers (almost pure left-side and right-side Technicals).

[trihero]

Specialist is fine, I pick killzone.

Technical tandem + javelins. Not having falloff damage helps loads, and javelin gives you some interesting squadsight-like ability with the rockets, it kind of allows you to open with a rocket later after concealment if you have a shinobi scouting for you. Bunker buster is kind of amazing (especially with serial), unless you plan to have a grenadier with combat engineer to bust down cover.

I remember you were asking about iron curtain on gunner; try not to unless you get a good AWC perk. Demolition is actually pretty good; in LW2 it's 100% to hit and it seems to kill cover without requiring high tech weaponry as opposed to vanilla where it missed a lot and had to be plasma before you could down high cover. I actually got a really nice combination lately which was shadow strike + bring'em on for a gunner, then I learned iron curtain and it's been amazing, I kill 6/8 enemies on an iron curtain ambush with 10'ish damage crits, with mag cannon which is pretty darn good considering iron curtain normally does half of your weapon damage. And whatever survives barely moves due to red fog + iron curtain debuff.

[Jacke]

Specialist is fine, I pick killzone.

I just wonder about the damn Bugs, err, Chryssalids. How much Scanning Protocol would help against them. Will have it on my Specialist Medics anyhoo, who'd I'd want on a mission going up against the Bugs. Any other enemy hide like them?

I remember you were asking about Iron Curtain on Gunner; try not to unless you get a good AWC perk. Demolition is actually pretty good; in LW2 it's 100% to hit and it seems to kill cover without requiring high tech weaponry as opposed to vanilla where it missed a lot and had to be plasma before you could down high cover. I actually got a really nice combination lately which was shadow strike + bring'em on for a gunner, then I learned iron curtain and it's been amazing, I kill 6/8 enemies on an iron curtain ambush with 10'ish damage crits, with mag cannon which is pretty darn good considering iron curtain normally does half of your weapon damage. And whatever survives barely moves due to red fog + iron curtain debuff.

Thanks! Crossposted to the Gunners Builds topic here.

http://www.pavonisinteractive.com/phpBB ... 654#p32654

I'll then have 2 builds for Gunners, trying to go with AWC perks to decide who gets to be the Shredder builds.

Gunner
Grazing Fire - Hail of Bullets - Demolition - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Saturation Fire - Rupture

Gunner Shredder
Grazing Fire - Shredder - Iron Curtain - Chain Shot - Cool Under Pressure - Traverse Fire - Rupture

As I think all the special shots under the Shredder build are all single action point, Traverse Fire will work well there.

[trihero]

I just wonder about the damn Bugs, err, Chryssalids. How much Scanning Protocol would help against them. Will have it on my Specialist Medics anyhoo, who'd I'd want on a mission going up against the Bugs. Any other enemy hide like them?

It's a coin toss, I don't use either much tbh. Scanning protocol does help you reveal faceless in addition to 'lids; when advent strength is like 5 or so it seems like all the city maps get full of faceless civilians ';..;'

Yeah I like those gunner builds.